• NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

Pilot Raises @ SWA....

tredding@swa

SWA F/O
Joined
Jul 1, 2002
Posts
294
Total Time
10500+
Thanks to whomever posted the www.SWAMechanic.com web site. This is a GREAT resource for news, announcemnts, etc. relating to the industry.

For those who have not seen it... follw this link to a scanned copy of an internal memo to SWA employees from Mr. Parker. Re:pilot Pay Raises.... it's a good read!!

http://home.attbi.com/~airmech737/swa/Parker1.pdf

HAve a great day all! Tredding:)
 

rodeopilot

Member
Joined
May 24, 2002
Posts
16
Total Time
6500hr
Keep in context who wrote that letter. The BOD final vote is in and it is rejected by a handy majority now that the details have come to light. There isnt much argument here over wether the raise is lousy or not, just wether or not we want to tackle the issues right now or in a possibly better environment in 04'.
 

tredding@swa

SWA F/O
Joined
Jul 1, 2002
Posts
294
Total Time
10500+
Thanks for your point of view... being soaking wet it is hard to read anything without the ink running.

Of course the source is taken into account, jsut food for thought & an opportunity to get dialog going.... thanks for being willing to comment!!!:)
 

Rob Beeks

SWA Captain
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
29
Total Time
15000+
Tredding (and all other SWA poolies and future poolies):

There are a lot of SWA pilots currently trying very hard to secure average major airline wages for YOU. It is an uphill battle, and emotions sometimes will spill overboard. Be forewarned that there is an equally large number of SWA pilots who will sell you (i.e., new guys) down the river to ensure their stock portfolio maintains its value. You will understand better when you are on the property for awhile.

And trust me--you WILL be on the property. Maybe not as soon as you wanted/expected, but you are firmly part of SWA's strategic plan. This plan will happen regardless of the outcome of the pilot contract extension vote, the mechanics' contract vote, and the flight attendants' contract vote.
 

rodeopilot

Member
Joined
May 24, 2002
Posts
16
Total Time
6500hr
What I meant is exactly what Rob is saying above. When I got to SWA I didnt squawk and complain about the pay, because I knew what it was when I signed on. I did however vow that a sub-par contract would never earn my vote. SWA has many pilot owners who will vote whichever way Jim Parker tells them to, and many 55+ guys who are going to do whatever is best for them(YES VOTE), and then there are the rest of us who will not get the golden egg, because it doesnt allow for it in the contract. What I am referring to is low hard pay, and limited options with a strike price that will not provide the investment opportunity enjoyed by the more senior pilots. Some of the non golden ring bearing pilots will vote yes on this, and the only way I see my view differing from theirs is the gamble factor. Is the environment now better to negotiate in than 04'? I think not. Some think so. I just cant see making a 10 year mistake a twelve year disaster for less than industry average pay and benefits. Either way, I will live with the final vote. But if this thing passes, SWAPA will need to run one heck of a UNIFICATION campaign to make sure this kind of offer is the last sub-IAP offer this group recieves.

Only a sucker pays sticker for a new car, let alone paying better than Kelley blue book for a used and abused one.
 

tredding@swa

SWA F/O
Joined
Jul 1, 2002
Posts
294
Total Time
10500+
Thanks Rob & Rodeo...

You guys will be thanked in person someday, but for now this is the only access I have to you!

This is exactly what I had hoped for when I started this thread...

The last thing I personally want to see is any "agreement" signed & done BEFORE us Poolies show up on property that is so unbearable that it will have a negative impact on our futures for years to come.

Sure, there are those who are MORE than willing to sell us down the river in order to take care of themselves today. (Heck, it happened 8 years ago in some respects, right?) But my (our) fate is in your hands... I HOPE that somewhere in my 4000+ future peers (who I can't wait to fly with) there are enough people who are willing to stay focused on the BIG picture and make life wonderful for us all!!!

I agree, regardless of the outcome of the current labor contracts, we WILL be brought on board. WHen is TBA, but I am still feeling quite pleased with the fact that I am "tredding" is some pretty fine water & in the company of some outstanding swimmers. :) ;) :D

Thanks again Rob & Rodeo for coming down to the edge of the water every now and then to keep us informed. Taking time to educate us on some of what's going on "inside" is also greatly appreciated. We can't WAIT to be on the dry-side of things at SWA.... waiting (or wading as it may be...) is just not much fun, but it sure beats some of the alternatives!!!!!

Have a great day everyone - Regards, Tredding:p
 

rodeopilot

Member
Joined
May 24, 2002
Posts
16
Total Time
6500hr
Hey guys, the word is one more class this year (possibly) if the contract passes. If not, maybe none. This is from a Chief Pilot at a training event within the last 24 hours. I think that we are netting 5 airplanes next year with the -200 retirements and the new -700s coming in. The last of the desert parked airplanes is scheduled to be brought online by September. Cautious growth is the word of the day, and the "We are not out of the woods" attitude will keep us from falling into the black water that is drowning our competitors. I would say that if you are tredding, you are in for a bright future, because this management team is top notch and is looking for ways to keep this thing on track. Keep your chins above water and your fingers crossed. It may be a while, but its worth the wait. I hope you get here soon so those upgrades keep rolling.
 

OakRBust

Still Lucky as Hell
Joined
Apr 6, 2002
Posts
259
Total Time
10 k
Hopefully it will be one class with 300 smiling poolies in it!!!:D :D

Oak
 

race#53

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2002
Posts
183
Total Time
2000
Is there a link to the new rates after the 20% raise?
 

chase

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
1,217
Total Time
10,000
To SWA Poolies

Rob B. stated the following:

>There are a lot of SWA pilots currently trying very hard to secure average major airline wages for YOU. It is an uphill battle, and emotions sometimes will spill overboard. Be forewarned that there is an equally large number of SWA pilots who will sell you (i.e., new guys) down the river to ensure their stock portfolio maintains its value. You will understand better when you are on the property for awhile.


I have the utmost respect for RB & what he has done for many poolies here & folks in SWA. He provides a great service. For that reason I'm reluctant to make the following commentary on his comments above. I'm sure there will be rebuttal to my comments but for those who know me & who have read my posts I would like my statements to be on equal footing to what Rob has posted.

IMHO Rob is implying from the first sentence that there is one group (the no voters) who are more interested in helping future hires (you) than others (the yes voters). I wasn't sure if that was the case (& if I'm wrong RB pls correct my perception & if so my apologies in advance) until I read his 3rd sentence. I STRONGLY DISAGREE with this characterization & would say RB has done you a disservice (again I'm reluctant to say this publicly) in trying to divide the poolies into different "camps" before you're even on the property.

I voted for the extension & I will be happy to go into further detail on why if folks wish to PM me. Debating here is possible but doesn't serve the intent of this web site IMHO. I haven't questioned Rob's vote (regardless of how he voted) nor anyone else's. It is up to each person to vote on it for whatever reasons they choose. I just wanted folks to vote, YES or NO.

By voting for it I to feel I have done what I believe is in the best interest of future hires. Rob's assumption that a "yes" vote is against your interest would indicate my desires are 180 out from what I've just stated. I reject that completely.

I'm sure if Rob voted "no" one of his reasons did deal with what would be in the best interest of future hires. I don't question his intentions and I would expect the same courtesy toward my intentions or others who voted yes.

One can intellectually debate the merits of which route would be best but to characterize one group of voters as having "more" concern for new hires than the other with the mere casting of a ballot I feel is an inaccurate characterization.

I would argue there are an equal number (small I believe) of pilots who voted yes & no who don't care a flip about the growth (new hires) of the company but simply wish to take as much from the golden goose as they can & run with it. They are in any airline, SWA is no different.

RB & I may disagree on this issue but we are both in agreement when it comes to the future of SWA & your chances to be at SWA sooner rather than later. RB provides a great service to the aviation industry but as I said there is certainly more than one opinion on the matter of what a "yes" or "no" vote represents in the most recent election.

Again my apologies in advance Rob if I have mischaracterized any of your statements.

To those in the pool, hope to see you in DAL soon.

cheers & God Bless
 

Rob Beeks

SWA Captain
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
29
Total Time
15000+
Misinterpretation, Roy

Roy:

I am sorry for wording my post in a way which led you to misinterpret my actual intent. I should not have used the wording "equally large number" when referring to SWA pilots who are more concerned with their portfolio values than higher pay rates for all SWA pilots. I should have just used the wording "large number." I truly believe most SWA pilots do care about their union brothers and sisters, both current and future ones.

I was not trying to separate "no" voters and "yes" voters with my post. I was referring to the extreme fringes of the two prominent groups that both you and I know exist at SWA -- the "haves" and the "have nots."

As you know, it was quite possible to have industry average pay (IAP) as a goal and vote either yes or no based on how you feel it can most quickly and easily be obtained. Some thought it could best be obtained taking a two-step approach (accept this extension and then get the remainder in a 2005 section 6). Some thought that an extension would lead to another extension, and the only way to ever get close to IAP is a section 6 and the sooner the better (i.e., no extension and start negotiations in 2003).

What I do want folks to understand is that a "no" vote should not be connoted with a "radical" viewpoint. Just like most of the "yes" voters, most of the "no" voters were trying hard to get IAP from SWA. As you know, extending the current contract two more years does prevent the union from fixing all the OTHER stuff sooner, unless SWA management agrees to numerous sideletters. Taking care of future hires at SWA also means having a solid contract with clear language; one which ensures they don't get abused as junior pilots. IOW, it's not all about pay.

I will never label a "no" voter as a troublemaker, nor will I label a "yes" voter as a kool-aid drinker who would just as soon pull up the ladder on everyone junior to him. Of course, there are those kinds of people at SWA. What would be a "disservice" to folks who read this forum is to ALWAYS paint the positive picture and NEVER mention the negatives.

Good luck in your campaign for Dallas union domicile representative this fall. Based on your past letter(s) to the union newspaper, I would fully expect you to support a section 6 opener in 2005 vice okaying yet another extension to our now 12-year contract.

To all FlightInfo junkies and future SWA pilots: You will always read posts here that sometimes reflect reality and sometimes do not. You will read posts from people who know what they are talking about, and those who don't know their a** from a hole in the ground. You will be exposed to lots of "opinions." If the author states it as his/her opinion, then that's great. If not, don't hesitate to wave a bullsh*t flag, just like Roy did with me.

I will continue trying to paint accurate pictures of the reality of the airline industry, not just SWA. I will try very hard to separate what I know as absolute fact versus what is merely my opinion. Roy does a great job of this, too. If he is elected, hopefully he will have time to continue providing even more accurate insight "from the inside."
 
Last edited:

CoopDog

SWA Pool Dog Paddler
Joined
Mar 20, 2002
Posts
310
Total Time
7600
Atta boy's to you both

Chase, Rob:

Thanks for all the good poop. I know you've both heard it before, but we really do appreciate all the news you send our way here. Please keep it coming.

Regards,
Coop
 

chase

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
1,217
Total Time
10,000
To Rob,

As I stated in my original post Rob, my apologies if I took some of your comments the wrong way, pls accept it as I did "read" too much into them. Your clarification was on the money & right in line with the positions I held. A "no" voter to me is no different than a "yes" voter in the sense they may both have the same objective, just different ways in which they wish to achieve their goals.

I hope (as you do & all the readers on here) hope the settlement of the contract & progress (hopefully) on the mechanics, FAs & now the CSA/res folks go well. SWA needs to settle these labor groups & find a reasonable compromise with each in order for us to hire as many pilots, rampers, FAs as we can in the next few years. There is a tremendous opportunity to expand by taking advantage of the situation. Thanks again to you & CT for ya'll's effort in getting the "real" word out on what is happening at SWA.

As for my election prospects, we'll see. We have a lot of candidates with different ideas but that is good. We'll see how it all goes down. The one downside if I win is I will have to determine the feasibility of still advising folks on here. I will have to talk to folks about that & get their opinion. There are many folks like yourself that can (& have done well before me) continue to give the straight skinny on what is happening. We'll see after Oct 17. Cheers,
 

Dab

Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2002
Posts
10
Total Time
4200
first year pay

So bottom line. What will a SWA new hire make their first year on the line based on these new numbers assuming he/she doesn't pick up open time?

Thanks
dab
 

chase

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
1,217
Total Time
10,000
New FO Scales for 1st year

Here are the annual totals before taxes and without per diem. Holding a regular line will generate about an additional $600 per month in per diem.

There will be two columns, the first is the minimum annual pay and the second will be the maximum pay. In order to get the maximum certain profit totals for the year. For example, for the maximum pay increase to be achieved for '02-'03 SWA must make $550M in profit to get the "maximum". The maximum profit margin is 15%. To receive anything above the minimum we must make over 9% profit margin. There is sliding scale for between 9-15%. Here are the annual payfor each year. I am basing the total on 90 trips per month (this equates tabout 82 hard hours per month). There is no extra flying included in the numbers below. Any flights picked up in extra fly or daily open time is paid at 1.5 times the normal trip pay.

As of Date: Min Max

9/1/2001 $36K $36K
9/1/2002 $38.2 (this was guaranteed since we had 15% profit for the preceding year)

9/1/2003 $39.7K $41.1K
9/1/2004 $45.1K $46.6K
9/1/2005 $46.7K $50K
9/1/2006 $49.6 $50K

In a nutshell the guarantteed pay raises total 11.5% for the next 4 years with an additional 14.4% (maximum 3.6% each of the 4 years beginning in 2002) for a total of 25.9%. For those other SWA intellectuals out there don't hesitate to correct me where I'm wrong. I'm reading directly from the green update that was passed out in the Aug 2002. I hope I'm reading this right.
The contract comes up for ammendment in 9/1/2006. There are many more aspects, too numerous to go over here.

Stock options are a major player & there will be some for new hires also. Their strike price will be their as of hired date. For everyone else the strike price was $12.83 I believe. The price on Friday's close was $14.68. The first group of options will be distributed beginning (distributed to pilots) in Sept '04 through 'Aug '06. These will go to all pilots.

Stock options to repair past inequities (Option repair grant, ORG) will be vested immediately. Their price is also $12.83. Pilots hired before Sept '83 receive no options. Only pilots hired after Sept '83 receive them. A complex formula is used to distribute this ORG. Pilots hired up through Aug 2004 will receive some of these options.

Hope all that helps.
 
Last edited:

StarrBuck

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 30, 2001
Posts
111
Total Time
15k
Chase,

Thanks for all of your information, sure makes a difference. Could you also post the new payscale for 4,5 and 6th year Capt? Thanks!!!

S.B
 

chase

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
1,217
Total Time
10,000
4th, 5th, 6th yr Capt

As of Date: 4th Min Max 5th Min Max 6th Min Max
9/1/2001 113.71 114.97 116.41

9/2/2002 122.35 122.35 123.71 123.71 125.25 125.26
(The '02 raise is guaranteed at the max because we met profit projections for '01)

9/1/2003 127.24 131.65 127.24 133.11 128.66 134.78

9/1/2004 144.56 149.34 146.17 150.99 152.89 148.00

9/1/2005 149.62 159.94 151.29 161.71 163.74 153.18

9/1/2006 158.63 159.94 160.39 161.71 162.39 163.74

THIS IS NOT HOURLY PAY. To get an hourly conversion multiply the trip rate times 1.1369 (I believe that is the number but anyone out there can correct me if I'm wrong).
 

OakRBust

Still Lucky as Hell
Joined
Apr 6, 2002
Posts
259
Total Time
10 k
Chase


Thanks again for all the great info! Your time on this site is very much appreciated!


Thanks

OAK

:D
 

Caveman

Grandpa
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
1,580
Total Time
11000+
Let me make sure I understand this correctly, with the new raises a 2nd year FO at SWA will make $38K starting in Sept. Is that correct? Heck, a 2nd year CRJ pilot at CMR is making $35K now. Our C700 FOs will make $38K.

The SWA Capt pay sure looks a whole lot better than our Capt pay. How long does it take to upgrade?
 

T1bubba

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
317
Total Time
8K+
Caveman,

The pay rates you were looking at are all for first year FO's. From what I remember 2nd year pay is in the low 60's.

Upgrade generally takes around 5 years.

T1bubba
 
Top