Pilot Pay Rates

[bptham]

I think you are correct. I've been talking to a couple of the pilots that have medicaled out working for this outfit and it sounds more like they are concerned that every one gets along and to not hire jerkoffs. Well see, thanks again...

 

[N5139]

. We have hired regional pilots at the 110-125K range as SICs, but we only hired people who were PICs on their RJs.

Certainly no disrespect intended, but I can't for the life of me see how being a PIC on an RJ versus an *experienced* SIC makes one iota of difference in ability. The original poster has been at it long enough for most pilots to be a competent PIC, but seniority and industry movement hasn't provided him the opportunity to sit 24" to the left.

As someone who has flown in both airline and charter environments, I see very little difference between the two positions after a certain amount of time (unless the pilot is flat-out incompetent and has no leadership skills, which is usually readily apparent after an interview/tech eval).

Again, I certainly don't intend for this to be disrespectful, as I'm sure you weren't trying to be. Within the business jet industry, I just find it funny when some Beechjet captain looks down on me because I'm new to the company/not a PIC yet, despite the fact that I crossed the Atlantic 6 times in the last two months in a G-ride.

 

[Dumbluck]

Once its your signature on the release, you'll understand. The weight of responsiblity is real, if you don't feel it you should reconsider your profession.

 

[N5139]

Once its your signature on the release, you'll understand. The weight of responsiblity is real, if you don't feel it you should reconsider your profession.

Been there and done that at another operation. Still can't understand the ego some gain over an additional stripe. If you're a conscientious FO/SIC, you should be feeling that weight also. Having worked on enforcement actions in a previous role, I can tell you that the enforcement decision process doesn't solely focus on the left seat.

Edited to add: I am agreeing with you about the weight... it's nothing to shake a stick at. That being said, I think that some PICs devalue their SICs, putting more weight on themselves than necessary. While this very well might be the only course of action when dealing with sub-1,500 hour pilots, I think it's not the best approach when dealing with guys who obviously know what they're doing.

Regardless, I see your point - I guess I'm just frustrated for those I've evaluated in the training environment that would make great CAs had they interviewed a week earlier.

 

[Dumbluck]

I agree with everything you said. I Don't think becoming a CA should be and ego boost. I think it should be considered an accomplishment, maybe a sense of pride stemming from the trust you have earned by whomever gave you the oppurtunity. But, the pride and accomplishment should be tempered with respect for the responsiblity that has been added.

I understand PIC's devalueing SIC all to well, CRM to some captains is a direct challenge to their authority. I hate it when I see that, its pointless, unsafe and causes dissention in the piot group.

And to your last point, timing and seniority, yeah, but what are ya gonna do. I think the countdown is 335 days until the age 65 rule guys finally hit the golf course.
Hang in there, the stagnation will end soon. I hope.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Certainly no disrespect intended, but I can't for the life of me see how being a PIC on an RJ versus an *experienced* SIC makes one iota of difference in ability. The original poster has been at it long enough for most pilots to be a competent PIC, but seniority and industry movement hasn't provided him the opportunity to sit 24" to the left.

As someone who has flown in both airline and charter environments, I see very little difference between the two positions after a certain amount of time (unless the pilot is flat-out incompetent and has no leadership skills, which is usually readily apparent after an interview/tech eval).

Again, I certainly don't intend for this to be disrespectful, as I'm sure you weren't trying to be. Within the business jet industry, I just find it funny when some Beechjet captain looks down on me because I'm new to the company/not a PIC yet, despite the fact that I crossed the Atlantic 6 times in the last two months in a G-ride.

No disrespect taken!..(its a message board)

There is, however, a BIG difference in the two positions (PIC vs SIC)

Anyone can cross the Atlantic making HF reports in the right seat of a "G Ride" (Gulfsteam?) and anyone can learn to fly one by simply attending FSI. Reality is an initial is hardly a blip in a budget.

BUT...most places cant/dont want to teach someone how to make hard decisions. We can send that Beechjet PIC to FSI and 4 weeks later he's still a Captain, just pushing different switches.

My only point was all SIC time on a resume is a huge red flag to most people I know. I dont care if its a King Air, a Citiation, or a G850...most people just want to see that you have made the hard decisions, answered the angry boss in the proper way, stuck out your neck and cancelled a critical trip because it was the right thing to do, made an MEL work, etc etc...

No hard and fast rules in this business, just my observation.

 

[N5139]

No disrespect taken!..(its a message board)

There is, however, a BIG difference in the two positions (PIC vs SIC)

Anyone can cross the Atlantic making HF reports in the right seat of a "G Ride" (Gulfsteam?) and anyone can learn to fly one by simply attending FSI. Reality is an initial is hardly a blip in a budget.

BUT...most places cant/dont want to teach someone how to make hard decisions. We can send that Beechjet PIC to FSI and 4 weeks later he's still a Captain, just pushing different switches.

My only point was all SIC time on a resume is a huge red flag to most people I know. I dont care if its a King Air, a Citiation, or a G850...most people just want to see that you have made the hard decisions, answered the angry boss in the proper way, stuck out your neck and cancelled a critical trip because it was the right thing to do, made an MEL work, etc etc...

No hard and fast rules in this business, just my observation.

I completely agree with you, and wanted to emphasize an insight you made: there is a HUGE difference between 121 regional PICs and 135/Corp. 91 PICs. I'm certainly not going to start a "which is harder" debate (both have their challenges), but having done both I personally think that there is more responsibility on the 135/91 side. Everything was practically handed to me in the 121 world, whereas there's a lot less "back-up" at my current operation. All of the issues you mentioned are rarely even thought about in the regional 121 world (at least in my experience), making the difference between the two seats less.

I guess I was just venting in the respect that some PICs treat SICs like lesser human beings, when in reality they have great potential had circumstances been different (no growth, furloughs, a new plane, etc.). From someone who was captain-qualified, I guess I'm seeing a new side to things in the 135 world: some (definitely not all) 135 captains see your epaulets and assume you're lacking something that they embody, and therefore don't trust your input.

As far as your example with the Beech CA. I do see your point, but I also think there's some merit in having relevant operational experience in the area which you wish to work. After all, if you've been flying in radar contact for years and your longest stage length is 700NM, who is to stay that you won't end up hating 8-hour flights and jump ship.

All in all, you guys certainly make sense. I just wish other factors were taken into consideration (check airman, sim, etc.) over gobs of left seat time. That's me being prejudice, though!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

All in all, you guys certainly make sense. I just wish other factors were taken into consideration (check airman, sim, etc.) over gobs of left seat time. That's me being prejudice, though!

Luckily most departments dont have "F/O's" who get dumped on by "Captains"...I know if we ever sensed the "I'm the Captain, you're MY Copilot" attitude its gets hammered severely right away. It just makes for a terrible workplace. Im not talking PIC/SIC roles, as roles are important...but nobody needs the douuchebag CAPTAIN that sits inside sipping coffee while his boy puts the covers on the plane, dumps the lav, and gets the bags off. Not how it works in the least.

No worries, I think all things are considered, experience is experience.....but of course rule #1 in most of corporate is your connections/network.

At the end of the day, someone internally vouching that you are a good pilot and will fit in with the insanity in the average department goes a long, long way, its just a good idea to have the other boxes (decent PIC time, clean background etc) checked.