Piedmont/Allegheny rumor

[Smoking Man]

The biggest problem with the dork TP was that it was born at the wrong time, almost like the SABB 2000, the RJ revolution crushed it. You are correct about not getting the additional airplanes, but I guess Mainline did not want to put out the $$ for them when they could sub contract out RJ's from whoever.

The dork is a flop on the commercial venture, Some of my contacts at Picqua OH thell me that they lost $$$$$$$ on the developing the Prop, just an additional nail in the already over priced Dork.

I would say that you are correct in total over view of dorks V/S Dashs.

Kinda like Beta, good quality picture and sound, just did not stack up to VHS.


Smoking Man

 

[eightdriver]

Mr NewSouth?

What is your background if you don't mind me asking? I would just love to know.... I myself am one of those "Mickey Mouse" PDT Captains that you spoke of in you earlier remark. You say that your not an airline pilot, but yet you feel that you are so well informed of how the airlines and their contracts work. I myself wouldn't feel right telling some corporate "slave", I mean pilot, how his job future looks because I couldn't back up my statements with any real world corporate experience. So what is your background and where do you get off slinging #$% at us airline guys. You wanted a response, respond to this post PAL!!!!


Sincerely,

A (still very well paid) PDT Captain.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

Apology to the WO guys out there

I just want to apologize to the WO guys for these two Mesa pilot Jacka$$es that are pooring salt on open wounds. There is NO excuse for it, and I hope you will accept my apology on their behalf. Please do us all a favor and ignore their a$$inine ranting and raving.

The pilots at Mesa (for the most part) have little in the way of hard feelings towards WO guys. We are, however, tired of being ridiculed by WO pilots who are just plain ignorant (I didn't say stupid - ignorance can be remedied) of the facts when it comes to Mesa and our current contract. "FurloughedAgain" described our situation well: we fly the airplane where Mesa tell us to fly it, irregardless of the paint job on the airplane. I fail to see the logic in blaming Mesa pilots for ALG's decision to sell aircraft and routes to our company. I realize that when jobs are at stake issues such as this one can become very emotional.

We, the pilots of Mesa Air Group will continue to work towards a fair contract which will represent ALL of the pilots at MAG. Only this will make Mesa Air Group a stronger company and a better place to work. Before we can raise any bars we have to deal with our own scope issues.

Okay, enough about Mesa. This whole thread is not about Mesa - it is about the WO carriers and various rumors which concern them. Let's get back on topic.

 

[eightdriver]

Hey SpacemanSpiff?

Is this NewSouth guy a Mesa Pilot? Does anyone Know??

The only problem I have with Mesa is the management. I do think however that most of the pilots that fly there knew what kind of company Mesa was when they applied. When I started applying to the airlines about 7 years ago I was aware of the game that Mesa played. I do think that the Mesa guys shoud get a parity type contract with Comair and AWA. And I do support there cause. Our pilot group at PDT supports Mesa's wish for a better paying contract. I just don't agree with the WO bashing that goes on just because we will not sell out to managements every whim. All of the Regionals need to stand up for themselves, especially now. The parent airlines need us and they know that. If Mesa gets a decent contract then it will definitely benefit the WO's also. The real scare here is MDA!!

 

[BoredToDeath]

Keep in mind;

With all this talk about Mesa raising the bar, It won't matter what kind of contract the Mesa pilots get with thier company. US Airways will still be paying them the same "Fee Per Depatrure" amount that they've been paying. This amount won't change until a new contract is drawn up between US Airways and Mesa.

In turn this forces the WO's to compete with contract carriers. This is why the contracting of Group flying needs to stop!

 

[Brother Francis]

Devil's advocate

And if the Mesa pilots win a contract that is on par or better than that of the WO's (before the "concessions" were rammed down the WO's throats) and Mesa can still offer the service at a lower cost than if it were kept within the group?

 

[BoredToDeath]

And if the Mesa pilots win a contract that is on par or better than that of the WO's (before the "concessions" were rammed down the WO's throats) and Mesa can still offer the service at a lower cost than if it were kept within the group?

In that case you would be helping Group Mgt. turn US Airways into the "Contract Carrier of Choice"

Fortunately since Mesa and the other Contract Carriers did'nt sign on for this piece of garbage jets4jobs, you will not reciceve any new jets to fly for Our group.

 

[Brother Francis]

So:

A) The contract carrier pilots should not negotiate a better contract because that would pull the teeth from your argument with group, or

B) They should negotiate the best contract they can, but then quit their jobs on principle.

I am not without sympathy for the WO's at any of the majors. The U WO's in particular have been really badly screwed. I'm sure I don't need me to report that understatement.

There is validity to the argument that the whore contract carriers are taking flying from the WO's and that some of the reason for that is the lower cost due to lower payroll expenses. I'll be the first to admit it.

Let me rephrase my question:

Would the Mesa/CHQ/TSA/etc. pilots still maintain their whore status if the disparity in compensation were not an issue? And why?

 

[BoredToDeath]

**So:

A) The contract carrier pilots should not negotiate a better contract because that would pull the teeth from your argument with group, or

B) They should negotiate the best contract they can, but then quit their jobs on principle.

I am not without sympathy for the WO's at any of the majors. The U WO's in particular have been really badly screwed. I'm sure I don't need me to report that understatement.

There is validity to the argument that the whore contract carriers are taking flying from the WO's and that some of the reason for that is the lower cost due to lower payroll expenses. I'll be the first to admit it.

Let me rephrase my question:

Would the Mesa/CHQ/TSA/etc. pilots still maintain their whore status if the disparity in compensation were not an issue? And why?**

Brother Francis,

My feelings are that the Contract Carriers should get the absolute best contract with their company that they can. And in these times I would'nt suggest quiting your jobs.

As far as the contract carriers being whores or not, I would rather see Mesa and the rest flying under their own names and paint trying to serve their own markets.

My bottom line is that Mainline and the WO'd need to be one company, no contracting. If a particular route has to be flown with a 1900 then it should be US Airways flying it. This way Mgt. can't whipsaw any group and with happy employees all of our attention can be placed at making this the best and stongest company. We need to be focused on customer service not worrying about whos flying what and where. With onelist we would be able to do that.

US Airways Group should be made up of the Mainline and the WO'd to become just plain and simple US Airways.

Not Mainline, PSA, PDT, and ALG then a world of contract carriers.

 

[Brother Francis]

Good post; you make your point well. I was not trying to start a whizzing contest- just trying to get an idea of what was going on in the hearts and minds of WO guys. The reasoning behind the reason, as it were. Thanks for the clear and concise reply.

Seems the entire industry has broken down into rival factions fighting over the planes, routes and the rights thereto.

We're being played.

Best of luck to you...and us all

 

[eightdriver]

Mr. CL-65???

C'mon NewSouth...... Chime in Pal. I'm anxious to have a word with you brother!!

 

[BoredToDeath]

Brother Francis,

Thanks, and I forgot to give an example of an airline where Onelist actually works. "BahamasAir" Not a huge company and they do have their share of problems, but they mannage to have DH-8s and 73s flying together with ONE pilot group flying them.

Some say Onelist is impossible and there it is already working.

Good Luck to you to.

 

[blzr]

Newsouth... Shut Up

Ok. Maybe we will be squeezing the nickle. But only because you bunch of spineless bastards ALLOW yourselves to be subjected to sweatshop labour rules. Seriously, if it wasn't for you bunch of flight instructors getting all excited to fly those lawn darts for less than the kid in Brazil made to build your plane, maybe we would all be in a little better position to bargain.

We are proud of the fact that every time we put on our uniform to fly passengers, we are guaranteed something for our time, even if the weather is bad or the plane is broken. You may think it's a bad thing, but it sure is a good feeling to be able to pay the rent.

Remember... Go-around isn't an option... Be safe.

 

[Beavis]

Touche!!!!

 

[upndsky]

I've been monitoring this thread with interesest and I have this question for the PDT'ers who resent their contract brethren:

When applying to PDT for a job, how many of you also sent resumes to the contract carriers? If you're like most aspiring airline pilots, I would venture to guess that it's the majority of you, just like the pilots at [insert name of least favorite contract carrier] sent resumes to PDT, PSA and ALG.

I'm a low-time pilot and I don't work for an airline (yet). Would I prefer to fly for a company like Comair versus Mesa? Sure. Would I fly for Mesa if they happen to be the first to call? Sure, since they may be the only one to call. You see, we have to play with the hand we're dealt. We have opted to work in an profession where we don't have the luxury to pick and choose. Remember PDT'ers, you could just as easily be wearing a Mesa or CHQ hat.

I'm not picking sides here, but just trying to point out that this infighting in pointless and a waste of energy that could be diverted to more useful causes.

 

[eddie]

LR25 -- I hope you weren't being serious when you wrote this.

What, a Dash is a piece of junk becuase it has props, granted, it aint as sexy (to the pax) as a RJ, but come on, it takes a whole lot more skill to fly the Dash than any RJ, not to mention more comfortable than an RJ also, or 737.


The Dash is like a 172. You don't fly an ILS at 110 knots in an RJ. Unless you've flown the RJ and 737, I imagine you are going by what others have told you. If you have flown those planes, then I question you ability to accurately judge aircraft.

 

[Cropduster]

Flew an ILS into DCA on Friday at 230Kts Indicated In a Dash. 50 knot wind on the tail, (thats right 280 over the ground) Its not your typical 172! Oh, and by the way, flown a 73 also. Great Airplane.

 

[FR8mastr]

flying lesson #1 Who flies an ILS at 110 kts.? in the real world unlike what they teach at embry riddle and the like ILS's are flown usually starting at 160 or greater depending on traffic and the airport, constantly slowing untill over the numbers at 110 in a Dash 8 This is done so that the slow dash will fit in with the larger aircraft that usually fly at 120-130 on final. Not that this is that difficult to do, but it is certainly not a 172.

I for one did not apply to anyone other than PDT and ALG, PDT never responded to me and ALG hired me. A few years prior to that I had an interview at Trans states that I did not even go to. Why? Because I would not work under those conditions. I always said I would fly frieght untill I died before I would whore myself out or pay for a job!! So, no sir we did not all apply to anyone that has an airplane. That being said I personally do not blame the pilots for what the company does. The pilots just go where they are told. The only exception is the buy your job crowd and I have nothing but contempt for those individuals. In my opinion the buy your job crowd have done more damage to the industry the JO at Mesa has ever done.

 

[eddie]

So my question still stands, is the dash really more difficult to fly than the rj?

I doubt it.

By the way, at PDT the "standard" ILS is flown at ref+20 (115kts) to ref+10 (105kts) at 1000ft, and ref (95kts) at the threshold. It will fly faster of course, but these speeds are much slower than most other turboprops.

P.S. The speeds I quoted depend on the weight of the aircraft, I was just giving a common example.

 

[FR8mastr]

I think you are missing my point entirely, nobody flies these aircraft that slowly, I dont give a rat's @ss what the book says. Just because the dash can fly around at 90 kts does not mean that is the speed you fly it. Besides by looking at the AC you are flying how do you know what the PDT "book" says? And I never said the tprops were that difficult to fly just that there is a big difference in speed between the Dash and a 172

 

[eddie]

My original post was not to you FR8mastr, I was asking if LR25 thought the dash was a difficult airplane to fly. (check page 2 of this thread)

You are very trusting if you think the experience these posters claim to have are truthful representations. As for me, I haven't updated my profile in a while. I fly for PDT, and the other day I was harassed on a Line Check for flying the airplane faster than the profile in the book calls. I was flying the ILS at 160 to the marker and 130 knots the rest of the way.

I am not saying that it ought to be flown that slowly, but it is the only profile this check airman would allow. I told him exactly what any line pilot would "This is too slow for real life environment". The check airman said that ATC can adapt to me so I shouldn't fly faster than the profile. I guess I can earn an extra .1 flight pay that way.

I do have one question for you, although I don't know what aircraft you flew freight in, do you think it really was better than flying during the day, in a jet, for a part 121 carrier? Even if that carrier is contracted and not owned by a major? Also I don't believe TSA ever had pay for training.

 

[dondk]

CRJ versus DHC-8

After flying the Dash for PDT and now the CRJ for PCL I can sort of add .02 to this contest...

Yes, the DHC can do 90 something Kts, but your only that slow when you have to (usually ATC directed) or for some other specific reason.


The CRJ starts the approach phase at 200 kts, about 160 at the FAF and usually 140 over the fence. I remember the DHC-8 profile being 160 or so down to about 130-140 (depending on model) at the FAF and anywhere from 110-120 over the fence.

Does it really matter?

Comfort... I personally think the DHC-8 cockpit is slightly bigger, in the cabin, about the same, maybe if your sitting in the last row in the middle seat you got a bit more legroom than the rest.

Which is harder? Well, they are different... The CRJ you manage more, the Dash you fly more.

I don't think I could judge one to be "better", "harder", or requires "more skill" to fly than the other.

As a point... Mesa has filled RJ's with lower time guys as has PDT with guys from UND. Both companies hired people with only CFI background, so to quantify the skills required is a non argument.

 

[Brother Francis]

Thank you dondk. Had you not intervened they'd've been arguing over who can pee the farthest.

 

[FR8mastr]

Eddie, sorry about your check airman, we have a couple of those also.


As far as the freight vs. 121 that requires a breakdown. Pay and benefits this job wins hands down (the only reason I am here) as far as the job, freight wins totally! A jet would be nice but in the big picture I really dont care I just want some time off and a respectable pay check. flying the canceled checks I was working 4 nights a week, weekends and holidays off, and all bank holidays off. Mon thru thurs. I left my apt at 10 at night and was back in my apt at 5:30 in the am. Also the personal part of the flying was, to me, much more fulfilling. Just me, the AC, and a job, and only a fraction of the BS we have to put up with here. but like I said at the beginning this is where the paycheck is, so I live with it. Trans states was just an example, in that case if I would have been hired there I would have cut my pay in more than half so I could sit in the right seat of a 1900 or junkstream. Again just me, but no thanks. My last freighter was the rice rocket

 

[328dude]

I can relate to FR's frieght days and I to also flew the rice rocket before going to PSA.

The nights flying cancelled checks around in TX, OK and AR, where some of the best times of my life. 121 flying is very diffrent, however, quality of life is somewhat the same. I didn't have to commute with my freight job and do with my current position. Pay? hmmm, about the same depending on what I fly for the month.

Which did my wife like better? The frieght job. Which do I like better? PSA. Why? Still working on that.

I liked flying the MU-2. Good experince and alot of time by yourself (mostly). I also like the Dorker and find it alot easier to fly then the MU-2 which i think FR can relate to.

MU-2's a good airplane if it dosent try to kill you like shedding blades over Houston. I have yet to lose a blade in the Dork. Hopefully I never will.

 

[Freight Dog]

AMEN Fr8master. Some of the funnest times I've had in aviation was flying checks in a Chieftain and sweating the 001OVC & 1/2SM all by myself in the middle of the night. Yep, we also had an identical schedule 10pm and home by 6:30 am Mon-Thu.

You said it man.. 135 rules. I was just after the quality of life here. If I didn't get hired by Island Air, I would have most likely stayed at Ameriflight and gone up the ladder.

As for how tough is it to fly DHC-8 overall, I'd say flying a Chieftain was tougher than flying a DHC-8. It's just my opinion. I find Dash 8 to be one of the most forgiving airplanes I've flown, although I've seen people make it sound a lot tougher than it really is.


My .02 cents.

 

[eddie]

I only flew a c310 when I flew freight, but the 4 nights a week was great. I don't think it would be easy to find another job like the one I had (6pm to 3am).

I just get tired of guys saying how tough the dash is to fly. It is the easiest plane I've flown in 5 years (except maybe if there is an engine failure with the loss of hydraulics). I can see why so many companies keep them.