Piedmont/Allegheny rumor

[ChinaClipper]

Newsouth lighten up......

I for one, have been attacked on this board by a few WO's types who still belive Mesa pilots have a say in where we fly, and at what cost. I have tried to explain that the WO's benefitted A LOT when Mainline downsized and they benefitted (mid/late 80's) The most venomous of those posters seemed to have a sudden case of amnesia when it came to villifying"lower cost providers" when THEY wer ethe lower cost provider than the gazillion 737's that used to fly from ROA etc. The sad fact is that there managers have been shafing them for quite a while and a easy outlet for that frustration has been Mesa and other contract carriers. Celebrating thier potential demise would be justified after all the crew room BS, intentionally blocked calls (the Feds got involved in that one) and being cut off on the ramp by a few disgruntled WO' pilots. I won't be one of them. Seeing any pilot cracked in the knees by managers for not toeing the line is a sad day for all. Instead of those vocal sad sacks irrationally blaming contract carriers for all that bad in the world, a wiser move would be to start ORGANIZING A RESPONSE! The more RJ's that get to the Express operators means POWER! Shut up with all the bellyaching and stop wishing it was still Sept 10th. Its a new ball game and UNITY IN PURPOSE should trump rivalry's of old. I hope it happens.........

 

[Beavis]

Whatever!

Keep lowering the bar and feeling good about yourself! The reason were up **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** creek is because ML management has you to whipsaw us into working for less pay and crappier workrules!! Instead of you coming UP, to meet us....we are being forced to lower the bar to where you have set it!

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Beavis

Hey Beavis,

Lighten up!

Is it that guys fault where his company tells him to fly? What airplane he flies? What color they paint it?

NO! He got a job with Mesa airlines. Big deal. You got a job with Piedmont or Allegheny. So what? If your management says, "Hey Beavis, we need you to fly from LaGuardia to Buffalo" you dont decline because it used to be a MAINLINE flight do you?

You dont say, "Hell no! Not while 1100 of my mainline brothers are on the street!"

You just do what you're told. So does he, and so do I. You expected him to turn down a job with Mesa because they paid less than Comair or Eagle or Piedmont? Gimmeabreak.

How about our good friends at Jetblue and AirTran? I guess they shouldnt have accepted jobs with THOSE companies since they are getting paid less than their counterparts who fly the A320 for Northwest or United?

Oh wait, thats not what you're mad about. You're mad because he's codesharing for YOUR company. Beavis!! Wake up...thats not HIS fault. He has no say in how US Airways chooses to allocate its flying!

He shows up for work, flies the airplane, goes home and collects a paycheck -- no different than you.

The sooner we all start acting like brothers, the better chance we have of surviving the "new" airline industry that we're all fighting to build careers in.

Respectfully,
FurloughedAgain
(but currently a proud wholly-owned F/O)

 

[ChinaClipper]

see what I mean Vern.......

God, I rue posting here some times......Some more facts 1) Lowering the bar? Mesa is in Sec 6 now and trying to fix a crappy SIX YEAR OLD CONTRACT. A contract that, as it now stands, is being undercut by WO's concessions. Some bar lowering. Nothing personal, but those are the facts, I have seen it in print. 2) Mesa's old contract consolidated NUMEROUS USAirways express carriers under one contract. Had it not been done, you would have Liberty, Crown, Florida Gulf, Air MidWest and Mesa ALL as likely whipsaw candidates. Your welcome...... 3) The Wholly Owneds EXIST TO SERVE MAINLINE! If they don't need ya, your gone. Thinking you are a more "special" product than anyone else is being in denial! Whats your position on the Easter Bunny? 5) WO's have no juice, the main product is mainline flying, you have nothing to leverage as is the case with any other Express operator. I personally feel the goal is to get to a mainline operation, not get fat dumb and happy at a regional and get lulled into a false sense of security. I am not suggesting that getting the best deal you can for the leverage you have is bad at all. But when the leverage runs out, history shows you get sent packing. But what do I know, I come from a familiy with 140 years of combined airline experience; PAA, WAL, one UAL "570", WN Bankruptcies, hostile take overs, strikes and all the drama that comes with it.......trust me, get working as one or get hung individually......

 

[ChinaClipper]

Hey Furloughed Again....

nice back hand, do you play tennis? Seriously though, I call for burying the hatchet......in managements back for taking advantage of Sept 11th to do what they couldn't do otherwise; rearrainge the stack to THEIR advantage, not ours. The important thing is where do we go from here and keep enough people on the payroll with out getting the shaft REALLY bad. Lick your wounds and save enough rifleman for another day......SOON! PS Hey CLT USAir types, No one is barred from my jumpseat except Scabs. Don't be shy and bring beer......

 

[dakotaHC8]

"A contract that, as it now stands, is being undercut by WO's concessions..."

Look Kid, we set the level that all other regionals have strived to reach way BACK IN 1994, and we still have stuff AFTER concessions that no/few other regionals have. Undercut...? We lost half of our flying and all future growth opportunities into RJ's because of how much cheaper your so called contract was. How dare you give us grief when half of our list at ALG was furloughed when USAir sold OUR planes/routes to MESA in 1994...?

You want to fight for a real contract with real improvements that will earn you real respect, go for it. But it will never happen because at heart you have already lost.

It is BECAUSE of the rapant atttitude amoungst the MESA pilot group represented by your quote..." I personally feel the goal is to get to a mainline operation, not get fat dumb and happy at a regional and get lulled into a false sense of security..." THIS is what has fostered a willingness to accept subavererage pay and work rules in return for a quick upgrade and jet equipment. All JO has to do is provide growth (by say, giving you the Freedom jets that were yours in the first place = zero cost to MESA) and you guys will cave, am I right?

I do not see what you are complaining about. You agreed to work at MESA, you knew what MESA management was like, and had to have a clue about the unwritten agreement that your pilot group would work for less in return for future opportunities (even at others' expense). Just because the majors will not be hiring for the next few years and you might have to stick around a bit at MESA have you all of the sudden found a desire to improve things. Im real impressed with your pilot groups' zeal, but I just wonder if it is sincire...

In the mean time, WE will do what we have to do to help OUR company SURVIVE. (I havent seen MESA AIR GROUP offer any concessions to US AIRWAYS to help out). We will bite the bullet and COME DOWN to your level to compete. (Because we dont compete against COEX or ACA, we compete against YOU). We WILL take advantage of our situation being a part of US Airways and do what we have to do to reequip our fleet and keep future growth and profits in house and on the property.

As for the future, when we can hire again, we will once again be THE place to work for, with the opportunities we deserve as part of the US Airways family (you know the part that has sacrificed to help ensure the US Airways' future). Dont like our concessions making it tougher for your negotiations (well then I guess yoiu know how we have felt about your contract for almost a decade).

Yeah, we'll "get working" as you suggested, just dont be surprised when we are

 

[dakotaHC8]

"I hated to hear that 35 Dash 8 leases are being turned in. 12 at ALG and 23 at PDT. "

Look, I hate to break it to you, but the fleet plan over the next few years shows an elimination of the entire DO-328 fleet BEFORE the Dash 8's are retired. I know that the DO-328 is newer, but it is also much more expensive and less profitable to operate than the DHC-8. As it is with the mainline aircraft in the 150#, these dash leases are being renegotiated. Group wants the flexibility to get rid of them only if they cannot obtain cheap enough lease rates.

Could ALG and PDT be shut down, sure, so could PSA. Being as we are still in direct negotiations with management and they have not approached the court (to deal with us there) I would say that liquidation is NOT their first choice (just a real threat).

We will finish out negotiations as have the other major labor groups, and then unlike PSA we will get a chance to vote upon it. If our pilot group ratifies the agreement then we will move forward and see what the next phase of Dave's master plan is.

IMHO it is not so hard to figure out, MDA flies 100-150 EMB-170/5's, the remaining 3 WO's will be merged and fly around 150 EMB-145's (and whatever turboprops still around).The remaining 100 AC will be flown by whichever contract carriers that are stupid enough to agree to jets for jobs (stupid because we have to, you guys dont....) In a few years, after the 2 WO's are all jet, then Dave will IPO us off (just like COEX) to raise capital for additional growth at mainline/pay down debt.

Enough about the downfall of the WO's, Since it looks like US Airways will survive (and prosper) then our future is secure as well. With our concessions and our labor agreements in place until 2009 it is in US Airways' economic interest to place the majority of the 50 seaters at Allepsamont.

Having Mesa or Trans States or Chatauqua continue to do all of the RJ flying no longer makes sense, especially when Mesa shows a profit while US Airways is in the red. where do you think those profits came from? Keeping that growth in house gives US Airways something to sell stock in later on, and profit from hereout.

 

[Smoking Man]

"Look, I hate to break it to you, but the fleet plan over the next few years shows an elimination of the entire DO-328 fleet BEFORE the Dash 8's are retired. I know that the DO-328 is newer, but it is also much more expensive and less profitable to operate than the DHC-8. "


Part of the reason that all of the Dorks will be gone is due to the Fairchild/Dornier Bankruptcy, parts are takeing a longer time to get PARTS, and the parts starting to cost more. (The Dorks will be in the desert before long (two years)), Before the Far/Dor bankruptcy I have a hard time with the dash being more profitable, even though you have more seats the extra 100 KIAS on the dork give it an extra round trip per day per airplane V/S the Dash. Gust my guess on the $$$ I do not have any data.



Smoking Man

 

[dakotaHC8]

Cmon, use logic... If the DO328 was a money maker, then there would have been a bigger market for the plane.

Think about it, Jetstream never picked up the additional 25 options it had on the aircraft. Horizon went to the expense to get rid of the entire fleet type (and for what, hmmmm? thats right, Dash 8's). No company ever ordered that many of them... The Dash 8 is the second most popular regional turboprop behind the Saab with 4 avail variants seating from 37 to 78, and is still in production. The Do-328 was a commercial failure in both the prop and jet versions, sorry.

Fact is that the Do328 was a MNX pig before the bankruptcy of Fairchild, and now it is just worse. Im not the one that made the fleet plan up, I just read about it from the court records. I understand your wanting to be proud of your A/C, and you should be. It is a safe, fast, and sharp looking machine that any pilot would like to drive. But in terms of creating profit for US Airways it is not the equal of the Dash 8, that is why Group has 3 times as many of them...

 

[328dude]

Smoking man. I have the data and your correct. Im not going to rant about who's airplane is better, but we were already told that the Dorniers are going away. The leases on our aircraft expire early in 2003 and which time they will not be renewed. What they replace them with is anybody's guess. Hell, I'll fly a Caravan around if it keeps everyone at ALG, PDT and PSA on property.

Dakota, the leases on the Dash's run well beyond whats left on the Dornier. (simply because of the amount of Dash's compared to the Dork) That's a fact that has been long been established. However, the 35 aircraft leaving your property has been verified by your MEC's. If you dont believe me. listen to the hotline, I record the freaking thing and have to verify everything before I record it. (your MEC verified it as well as USAirways in Arlington)

 

[Smoking Man]

The biggest problem with the dork TP was that it was born at the wrong time, almost like the SABB 2000, the RJ revolution crushed it. You are correct about not getting the additional airplanes, but I guess Mainline did not want to put out the $$ for them when they could sub contract out RJ's from whoever.

The dork is a flop on the commercial venture, Some of my contacts at Picqua OH thell me that they lost $$$$$$$ on the developing the Prop, just an additional nail in the already over priced Dork.

I would say that you are correct in total over view of dorks V/S Dashs.

Kinda like Beta, good quality picture and sound, just did not stack up to VHS.


Smoking Man

 

[eightdriver]

Mr NewSouth?

What is your background if you don't mind me asking? I would just love to know.... I myself am one of those "Mickey Mouse" PDT Captains that you spoke of in you earlier remark. You say that your not an airline pilot, but yet you feel that you are so well informed of how the airlines and their contracts work. I myself wouldn't feel right telling some corporate "slave", I mean pilot, how his job future looks because I couldn't back up my statements with any real world corporate experience. So what is your background and where do you get off slinging #$% at us airline guys. You wanted a response, respond to this post PAL!!!!


Sincerely,

A (still very well paid) PDT Captain.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

Apology to the WO guys out there

I just want to apologize to the WO guys for these two Mesa pilot Jacka$$es that are pooring salt on open wounds. There is NO excuse for it, and I hope you will accept my apology on their behalf. Please do us all a favor and ignore their a$$inine ranting and raving.

The pilots at Mesa (for the most part) have little in the way of hard feelings towards WO guys. We are, however, tired of being ridiculed by WO pilots who are just plain ignorant (I didn't say stupid - ignorance can be remedied) of the facts when it comes to Mesa and our current contract. "FurloughedAgain" described our situation well: we fly the airplane where Mesa tell us to fly it, irregardless of the paint job on the airplane. I fail to see the logic in blaming Mesa pilots for ALG's decision to sell aircraft and routes to our company. I realize that when jobs are at stake issues such as this one can become very emotional.

We, the pilots of Mesa Air Group will continue to work towards a fair contract which will represent ALL of the pilots at MAG. Only this will make Mesa Air Group a stronger company and a better place to work. Before we can raise any bars we have to deal with our own scope issues.

Okay, enough about Mesa. This whole thread is not about Mesa - it is about the WO carriers and various rumors which concern them. Let's get back on topic.

 

[eightdriver]

Hey SpacemanSpiff?

Is this NewSouth guy a Mesa Pilot? Does anyone Know??

The only problem I have with Mesa is the management. I do think however that most of the pilots that fly there knew what kind of company Mesa was when they applied. When I started applying to the airlines about 7 years ago I was aware of the game that Mesa played. I do think that the Mesa guys shoud get a parity type contract with Comair and AWA. And I do support there cause. Our pilot group at PDT supports Mesa's wish for a better paying contract. I just don't agree with the WO bashing that goes on just because we will not sell out to managements every whim. All of the Regionals need to stand up for themselves, especially now. The parent airlines need us and they know that. If Mesa gets a decent contract then it will definitely benefit the WO's also. The real scare here is MDA!!

 

[BoredToDeath]

Keep in mind;

With all this talk about Mesa raising the bar, It won't matter what kind of contract the Mesa pilots get with thier company. US Airways will still be paying them the same "Fee Per Depatrure" amount that they've been paying. This amount won't change until a new contract is drawn up between US Airways and Mesa.

In turn this forces the WO's to compete with contract carriers. This is why the contracting of Group flying needs to stop!

 

[Brother Francis]

Devil's advocate

And if the Mesa pilots win a contract that is on par or better than that of the WO's (before the "concessions" were rammed down the WO's throats) and Mesa can still offer the service at a lower cost than if it were kept within the group?

 

[BoredToDeath]

And if the Mesa pilots win a contract that is on par or better than that of the WO's (before the "concessions" were rammed down the WO's throats) and Mesa can still offer the service at a lower cost than if it were kept within the group?

In that case you would be helping Group Mgt. turn US Airways into the "Contract Carrier of Choice"

Fortunately since Mesa and the other Contract Carriers did'nt sign on for this piece of garbage jets4jobs, you will not reciceve any new jets to fly for Our group.

 

[Brother Francis]

So:

A) The contract carrier pilots should not negotiate a better contract because that would pull the teeth from your argument with group, or

B) They should negotiate the best contract they can, but then quit their jobs on principle.

I am not without sympathy for the WO's at any of the majors. The U WO's in particular have been really badly screwed. I'm sure I don't need me to report that understatement.

There is validity to the argument that the whore contract carriers are taking flying from the WO's and that some of the reason for that is the lower cost due to lower payroll expenses. I'll be the first to admit it.

Let me rephrase my question:

Would the Mesa/CHQ/TSA/etc. pilots still maintain their whore status if the disparity in compensation were not an issue? And why?

 

[BoredToDeath]

**So:

A) The contract carrier pilots should not negotiate a better contract because that would pull the teeth from your argument with group, or

B) They should negotiate the best contract they can, but then quit their jobs on principle.

I am not without sympathy for the WO's at any of the majors. The U WO's in particular have been really badly screwed. I'm sure I don't need me to report that understatement.

There is validity to the argument that the whore contract carriers are taking flying from the WO's and that some of the reason for that is the lower cost due to lower payroll expenses. I'll be the first to admit it.

Let me rephrase my question:

Would the Mesa/CHQ/TSA/etc. pilots still maintain their whore status if the disparity in compensation were not an issue? And why?**

Brother Francis,

My feelings are that the Contract Carriers should get the absolute best contract with their company that they can. And in these times I would'nt suggest quiting your jobs.

As far as the contract carriers being whores or not, I would rather see Mesa and the rest flying under their own names and paint trying to serve their own markets.

My bottom line is that Mainline and the WO'd need to be one company, no contracting. If a particular route has to be flown with a 1900 then it should be US Airways flying it. This way Mgt. can't whipsaw any group and with happy employees all of our attention can be placed at making this the best and stongest company. We need to be focused on customer service not worrying about whos flying what and where. With onelist we would be able to do that.

US Airways Group should be made up of the Mainline and the WO'd to become just plain and simple US Airways.

Not Mainline, PSA, PDT, and ALG then a world of contract carriers.

 

[Brother Francis]

Good post; you make your point well. I was not trying to start a whizzing contest- just trying to get an idea of what was going on in the hearts and minds of WO guys. The reasoning behind the reason, as it were. Thanks for the clear and concise reply.

Seems the entire industry has broken down into rival factions fighting over the planes, routes and the rights thereto.

We're being played.

Best of luck to you...and us all