FurloughedAgain
Cabin Heating & Air Tech.
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Piedmont/Allegheny rumor
- Thread starter Beavis
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d328pilot
I dont mean to refer to you as a sellout. I think YOUR management and MEC sold you out, as well as the other WO pilots by undermining their negotiations! After all, how could we be players in the game when U management comes to us so early on with, ' we have PSA signed up already for dirt cheap rates!' I mean, come on.......how do we negotiate when you guys agreed to RJ rates LESS than our DHC-8 rates??? We had to negotiate down!!!
Anyway, enjoy your job, and good luck!
I dont mean to refer to you as a sellout. I think YOUR management and MEC sold you out, as well as the other WO pilots by undermining their negotiations! After all, how could we be players in the game when U management comes to us so early on with, ' we have PSA signed up already for dirt cheap rates!' I mean, come on.......how do we negotiate when you guys agreed to RJ rates LESS than our DHC-8 rates??? We had to negotiate down!!!
Anyway, enjoy your job, and good luck!
FR8mastr
Well-known member
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328dude
Still turning two
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You know, I can honestly say that I feel very bad for you guys and gals and ALG and PDT as most of us at PSA have friends, family and spouses (female PDT capt married to a PSA capt.) at both carriers. We are very much concerned about what is going on over there.
We have not heard anything since the ratification by our MEC and that the fact that ALG and PDT's was taken off the table by a succership clause.
I hated to hear that 35 Dash 8 leases are being turned in. 12 at ALG and 23 at PDT. We all know that this means more furloughes. This will probebly get flamed to all HE.L.L, but PSA will hire any furlughed WO pilot if you want to keep your number and stay with the flag. That came out of one of the chief pilots mouths.
I also believe COMAIR will help as well.
We have not heard anything since the ratification by our MEC and that the fact that ALG and PDT's was taken off the table by a succership clause.
I hated to hear that 35 Dash 8 leases are being turned in. 12 at ALG and 23 at PDT. We all know that this means more furloughes. This will probebly get flamed to all HE.L.L, but PSA will hire any furlughed WO pilot if you want to keep your number and stay with the flag. That came out of one of the chief pilots mouths.
I also believe COMAIR will help as well.
ChinaClipper
Well-known member
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- 460
Newsouth lighten up......
I for one, have been attacked on this board by a few WO's types who still belive Mesa pilots have a say in where we fly, and at what cost. I have tried to explain that the WO's benefitted A LOT when Mainline downsized and they benefitted (mid/late 80's) The most venomous of those posters seemed to have a sudden case of amnesia when it came to villifying"lower cost providers" when THEY wer ethe lower cost provider than the gazillion 737's that used to fly from ROA etc. The sad fact is that there managers have been shafing them for quite a while and a easy outlet for that frustration has been Mesa and other contract carriers. Celebrating thier potential demise would be justified after all the crew room BS, intentionally blocked calls (the Feds got involved in that one) and being cut off on the ramp by a few disgruntled WO' pilots. I won't be one of them. Seeing any pilot cracked in the knees by managers for not toeing the line is a sad day for all. Instead of those vocal sad sacks irrationally blaming contract carriers for all that bad in the world, a wiser move would be to start ORGANIZING A RESPONSE! The more RJ's that get to the Express operators means POWER! Shut up with all the bellyaching and stop wishing it was still Sept 10th. Its a new ball game and UNITY IN PURPOSE should trump rivalry's of old. I hope it happens.........
I for one, have been attacked on this board by a few WO's types who still belive Mesa pilots have a say in where we fly, and at what cost. I have tried to explain that the WO's benefitted A LOT when Mainline downsized and they benefitted (mid/late 80's) The most venomous of those posters seemed to have a sudden case of amnesia when it came to villifying"lower cost providers" when THEY wer ethe lower cost provider than the gazillion 737's that used to fly from ROA etc. The sad fact is that there managers have been shafing them for quite a while and a easy outlet for that frustration has been Mesa and other contract carriers. Celebrating thier potential demise would be justified after all the crew room BS, intentionally blocked calls (the Feds got involved in that one) and being cut off on the ramp by a few disgruntled WO' pilots. I won't be one of them. Seeing any pilot cracked in the knees by managers for not toeing the line is a sad day for all. Instead of those vocal sad sacks irrationally blaming contract carriers for all that bad in the world, a wiser move would be to start ORGANIZING A RESPONSE! The more RJ's that get to the Express operators means POWER! Shut up with all the bellyaching and stop wishing it was still Sept 10th. Its a new ball game and UNITY IN PURPOSE should trump rivalry's of old. I hope it happens.........
Whatever!
Keep lowering the bar and feeling good about yourself! The reason were up **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** creek is because ML management has you to whipsaw us into working for less pay and crappier workrules!! Instead of you coming UP, to meet us....we are being forced to lower the bar to where you have set it!
Keep lowering the bar and feeling good about yourself! The reason were up **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** creek is because ML management has you to whipsaw us into working for less pay and crappier workrules!! Instead of you coming UP, to meet us....we are being forced to lower the bar to where you have set it!
FurloughedAgain
Cabin Heating & Air Tech.
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Beavis
Hey Beavis,
Lighten up!
Is it that guys fault where his company tells him to fly? What airplane he flies? What color they paint it?
NO! He got a job with Mesa airlines. Big deal. You got a job with Piedmont or Allegheny. So what? If your management says, "Hey Beavis, we need you to fly from LaGuardia to Buffalo" you dont decline because it used to be a MAINLINE flight do you?
You dont say, "Hell no! Not while 1100 of my mainline brothers are on the street!"
You just do what you're told. So does he, and so do I. You expected him to turn down a job with Mesa because they paid less than Comair or Eagle or Piedmont? Gimmeabreak.
How about our good friends at Jetblue and AirTran? I guess they shouldnt have accepted jobs with THOSE companies since they are getting paid less than their counterparts who fly the A320 for Northwest or United?
Oh wait, thats not what you're mad about. You're mad because he's codesharing for YOUR company. Beavis!! Wake up...thats not HIS fault. He has no say in how US Airways chooses to allocate its flying!
He shows up for work, flies the airplane, goes home and collects a paycheck -- no different than you.
The sooner we all start acting like brothers, the better chance we have of surviving the "new" airline industry that we're all fighting to build careers in.
Respectfully,
FurloughedAgain
(but currently a proud wholly-owned F/O)
Hey Beavis,
Lighten up!
Is it that guys fault where his company tells him to fly? What airplane he flies? What color they paint it?
NO! He got a job with Mesa airlines. Big deal. You got a job with Piedmont or Allegheny. So what? If your management says, "Hey Beavis, we need you to fly from LaGuardia to Buffalo" you dont decline because it used to be a MAINLINE flight do you?
You dont say, "Hell no! Not while 1100 of my mainline brothers are on the street!"
You just do what you're told. So does he, and so do I. You expected him to turn down a job with Mesa because they paid less than Comair or Eagle or Piedmont? Gimmeabreak.
How about our good friends at Jetblue and AirTran? I guess they shouldnt have accepted jobs with THOSE companies since they are getting paid less than their counterparts who fly the A320 for Northwest or United?
Oh wait, thats not what you're mad about. You're mad because he's codesharing for YOUR company. Beavis!! Wake up...thats not HIS fault. He has no say in how US Airways chooses to allocate its flying!
He shows up for work, flies the airplane, goes home and collects a paycheck -- no different than you.
The sooner we all start acting like brothers, the better chance we have of surviving the "new" airline industry that we're all fighting to build careers in.
Respectfully,
FurloughedAgain
(but currently a proud wholly-owned F/O)
ChinaClipper
Well-known member
- Joined
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- Posts
- 460
see what I mean Vern.......
God, I rue posting here some times......Some more facts 1) Lowering the bar? Mesa is in Sec 6 now and trying to fix a crappy SIX YEAR OLD CONTRACT. A contract that, as it now stands, is being undercut by WO's concessions. Some bar lowering. Nothing personal, but those are the facts, I have seen it in print. 2) Mesa's old contract consolidated NUMEROUS USAirways express carriers under one contract. Had it not been done, you would have Liberty, Crown, Florida Gulf, Air MidWest and Mesa ALL as likely whipsaw candidates. Your welcome...... 3) The Wholly Owneds EXIST TO SERVE MAINLINE! If they don't need ya, your gone. Thinking you are a more "special" product than anyone else is being in denial! Whats your position on the Easter Bunny? 5) WO's have no juice, the main product is mainline flying, you have nothing to leverage as is the case with any other Express operator. I personally feel the goal is to get to a mainline operation, not get fat dumb and happy at a regional and get lulled into a false sense of security. I am not suggesting that getting the best deal you can for the leverage you have is bad at all. But when the leverage runs out, history shows you get sent packing. But what do I know, I come from a familiy with 140 years of combined airline experience; PAA, WAL, one UAL "570", WN Bankruptcies, hostile take overs, strikes and all the drama that comes with it.......trust me, get working as one or get hung individually......
God, I rue posting here some times......Some more facts 1) Lowering the bar? Mesa is in Sec 6 now and trying to fix a crappy SIX YEAR OLD CONTRACT. A contract that, as it now stands, is being undercut by WO's concessions. Some bar lowering. Nothing personal, but those are the facts, I have seen it in print. 2) Mesa's old contract consolidated NUMEROUS USAirways express carriers under one contract. Had it not been done, you would have Liberty, Crown, Florida Gulf, Air MidWest and Mesa ALL as likely whipsaw candidates. Your welcome...... 3) The Wholly Owneds EXIST TO SERVE MAINLINE! If they don't need ya, your gone. Thinking you are a more "special" product than anyone else is being in denial! Whats your position on the Easter Bunny? 5) WO's have no juice, the main product is mainline flying, you have nothing to leverage as is the case with any other Express operator. I personally feel the goal is to get to a mainline operation, not get fat dumb and happy at a regional and get lulled into a false sense of security. I am not suggesting that getting the best deal you can for the leverage you have is bad at all. But when the leverage runs out, history shows you get sent packing. But what do I know, I come from a familiy with 140 years of combined airline experience; PAA, WAL, one UAL "570", WN Bankruptcies, hostile take overs, strikes and all the drama that comes with it.......trust me, get working as one or get hung individually......
ChinaClipper
Well-known member
- Joined
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- Posts
- 460
Hey Furloughed Again....
nice back hand, do you play tennis? Seriously though, I call for burying the hatchet......in managements back for taking advantage of Sept 11th to do what they couldn't do otherwise; rearrainge the stack to THEIR advantage, not ours. The important thing is where do we go from here and keep enough people on the payroll with out getting the shaft REALLY bad. Lick your wounds and save enough rifleman for another day......SOON! PS Hey CLT USAir types, No one is barred from my jumpseat except Scabs. Don't be shy and bring beer......
nice back hand, do you play tennis? Seriously though, I call for burying the hatchet......in managements back for taking advantage of Sept 11th to do what they couldn't do otherwise; rearrainge the stack to THEIR advantage, not ours. The important thing is where do we go from here and keep enough people on the payroll with out getting the shaft REALLY bad. Lick your wounds and save enough rifleman for another day......SOON! PS Hey CLT USAir types, No one is barred from my jumpseat except Scabs. Don't be shy and bring beer......
"A contract that, as it now stands, is being undercut by WO's concessions..."
Look Kid, we set the level that all other regionals have strived to reach way BACK IN 1994, and we still have stuff AFTER concessions that no/few other regionals have. Undercut...? We lost half of our flying and all future growth opportunities into RJ's because of how much cheaper your so called contract was. How dare you give us grief when half of our list at ALG was furloughed when USAir sold OUR planes/routes to MESA in 1994...?
You want to fight for a real contract with real improvements that will earn you real respect, go for it. But it will never happen because at heart you have already lost.
It is BECAUSE of the rapant atttitude amoungst the MESA pilot group represented by your quote..." I personally feel the goal is to get to a mainline operation, not get fat dumb and happy at a regional and get lulled into a false sense of security..." THIS is what has fostered a willingness to accept subavererage pay and work rules in return for a quick upgrade and jet equipment. All JO has to do is provide growth (by say, giving you the Freedom jets that were yours in the first place = zero cost to MESA) and you guys will cave, am I right?
I do not see what you are complaining about. You agreed to work at MESA, you knew what MESA management was like, and had to have a clue about the unwritten agreement that your pilot group would work for less in return for future opportunities (even at others' expense). Just because the majors will not be hiring for the next few years and you might have to stick around a bit at MESA have you all of the sudden found a desire to improve things. Im real impressed with your pilot groups' zeal, but I just wonder if it is sincire...
In the mean time, WE will do what we have to do to help OUR company SURVIVE. (I havent seen MESA AIR GROUP offer any concessions to US AIRWAYS to help out). We will bite the bullet and COME DOWN to your level to compete. (Because we dont compete against COEX or ACA, we compete against YOU). We WILL take advantage of our situation being a part of US Airways and do what we have to do to reequip our fleet and keep future growth and profits in house and on the property.
As for the future, when we can hire again, we will once again be THE place to work for, with the opportunities we deserve as part of the US Airways family (you know the part that has sacrificed to help ensure the US Airways' future). Dont like our concessions making it tougher for your negotiations (well then I guess yoiu know how we have felt about your contract for almost a decade).
Yeah, we'll "get working" as you suggested, just dont be surprised when we are
Look Kid, we set the level that all other regionals have strived to reach way BACK IN 1994, and we still have stuff AFTER concessions that no/few other regionals have. Undercut...? We lost half of our flying and all future growth opportunities into RJ's because of how much cheaper your so called contract was. How dare you give us grief when half of our list at ALG was furloughed when USAir sold OUR planes/routes to MESA in 1994...?
You want to fight for a real contract with real improvements that will earn you real respect, go for it. But it will never happen because at heart you have already lost.
It is BECAUSE of the rapant atttitude amoungst the MESA pilot group represented by your quote..." I personally feel the goal is to get to a mainline operation, not get fat dumb and happy at a regional and get lulled into a false sense of security..." THIS is what has fostered a willingness to accept subavererage pay and work rules in return for a quick upgrade and jet equipment. All JO has to do is provide growth (by say, giving you the Freedom jets that were yours in the first place = zero cost to MESA) and you guys will cave, am I right?
I do not see what you are complaining about. You agreed to work at MESA, you knew what MESA management was like, and had to have a clue about the unwritten agreement that your pilot group would work for less in return for future opportunities (even at others' expense). Just because the majors will not be hiring for the next few years and you might have to stick around a bit at MESA have you all of the sudden found a desire to improve things. Im real impressed with your pilot groups' zeal, but I just wonder if it is sincire...
In the mean time, WE will do what we have to do to help OUR company SURVIVE. (I havent seen MESA AIR GROUP offer any concessions to US AIRWAYS to help out). We will bite the bullet and COME DOWN to your level to compete. (Because we dont compete against COEX or ACA, we compete against YOU). We WILL take advantage of our situation being a part of US Airways and do what we have to do to reequip our fleet and keep future growth and profits in house and on the property.
As for the future, when we can hire again, we will once again be THE place to work for, with the opportunities we deserve as part of the US Airways family (you know the part that has sacrificed to help ensure the US Airways' future). Dont like our concessions making it tougher for your negotiations (well then I guess yoiu know how we have felt about your contract for almost a decade).
Yeah, we'll "get working" as you suggested, just dont be surprised when we are
"I hated to hear that 35 Dash 8 leases are being turned in. 12 at ALG and 23 at PDT. "
Look, I hate to break it to you, but the fleet plan over the next few years shows an elimination of the entire DO-328 fleet BEFORE the Dash 8's are retired. I know that the DO-328 is newer, but it is also much more expensive and less profitable to operate than the DHC-8. As it is with the mainline aircraft in the 150#, these dash leases are being renegotiated. Group wants the flexibility to get rid of them only if they cannot obtain cheap enough lease rates.
Could ALG and PDT be shut down, sure, so could PSA. Being as we are still in direct negotiations with management and they have not approached the court (to deal with us there) I would say that liquidation is NOT their first choice (just a real threat).
We will finish out negotiations as have the other major labor groups, and then unlike PSA we will get a chance to vote upon it. If our pilot group ratifies the agreement then we will move forward and see what the next phase of Dave's master plan is.
IMHO it is not so hard to figure out, MDA flies 100-150 EMB-170/5's, the remaining 3 WO's will be merged and fly around 150 EMB-145's (and whatever turboprops still around).The remaining 100 AC will be flown by whichever contract carriers that are stupid enough to agree to jets for jobs (stupid because we have to, you guys dont....) In a few years, after the 2 WO's are all jet, then Dave will IPO us off (just like COEX) to raise capital for additional growth at mainline/pay down debt.
Enough about the downfall of the WO's, Since it looks like US Airways will survive (and prosper) then our future is secure as well. With our concessions and our labor agreements in place until 2009 it is in US Airways' economic interest to place the majority of the 50 seaters at Allepsamont.
Having Mesa or Trans States or Chatauqua continue to do all of the RJ flying no longer makes sense, especially when Mesa shows a profit while US Airways is in the red. where do you think those profits came from? Keeping that growth in house gives US Airways something to sell stock in later on, and profit from hereout.
Look, I hate to break it to you, but the fleet plan over the next few years shows an elimination of the entire DO-328 fleet BEFORE the Dash 8's are retired. I know that the DO-328 is newer, but it is also much more expensive and less profitable to operate than the DHC-8. As it is with the mainline aircraft in the 150#, these dash leases are being renegotiated. Group wants the flexibility to get rid of them only if they cannot obtain cheap enough lease rates.
Could ALG and PDT be shut down, sure, so could PSA. Being as we are still in direct negotiations with management and they have not approached the court (to deal with us there) I would say that liquidation is NOT their first choice (just a real threat).
We will finish out negotiations as have the other major labor groups, and then unlike PSA we will get a chance to vote upon it. If our pilot group ratifies the agreement then we will move forward and see what the next phase of Dave's master plan is.
IMHO it is not so hard to figure out, MDA flies 100-150 EMB-170/5's, the remaining 3 WO's will be merged and fly around 150 EMB-145's (and whatever turboprops still around).The remaining 100 AC will be flown by whichever contract carriers that are stupid enough to agree to jets for jobs (stupid because we have to, you guys dont....) In a few years, after the 2 WO's are all jet, then Dave will IPO us off (just like COEX) to raise capital for additional growth at mainline/pay down debt.
Enough about the downfall of the WO's, Since it looks like US Airways will survive (and prosper) then our future is secure as well. With our concessions and our labor agreements in place until 2009 it is in US Airways' economic interest to place the majority of the 50 seaters at Allepsamont.
Having Mesa or Trans States or Chatauqua continue to do all of the RJ flying no longer makes sense, especially when Mesa shows a profit while US Airways is in the red. where do you think those profits came from? Keeping that growth in house gives US Airways something to sell stock in later on, and profit from hereout.
Smoking Man
High Speed Aluminum
- Joined
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- Posts
- 561
"Look, I hate to break it to you, but the fleet plan over the next few years shows an elimination of the entire DO-328 fleet BEFORE the Dash 8's are retired. I know that the DO-328 is newer, but it is also much more expensive and less profitable to operate than the DHC-8. "
Part of the reason that all of the Dorks will be gone is due to the Fairchild/Dornier Bankruptcy, parts are takeing a longer time to get PARTS, and the parts starting to cost more. (The Dorks will be in the desert before long (two years)), Before the Far/Dor bankruptcy I have a hard time with the dash being more profitable, even though you have more seats the extra 100 KIAS on the dork give it an extra round trip per day per airplane V/S the Dash. Gust my guess on the $$$ I do not have any data.
Smoking Man
Part of the reason that all of the Dorks will be gone is due to the Fairchild/Dornier Bankruptcy, parts are takeing a longer time to get PARTS, and the parts starting to cost more. (The Dorks will be in the desert before long (two years)), Before the Far/Dor bankruptcy I have a hard time with the dash being more profitable, even though you have more seats the extra 100 KIAS on the dork give it an extra round trip per day per airplane V/S the Dash. Gust my guess on the $$$ I do not have any data.
Smoking Man
Last edited:
Cmon, use logic... If the DO328 was a money maker, then there would have been a bigger market for the plane.
Think about it, Jetstream never picked up the additional 25 options it had on the aircraft. Horizon went to the expense to get rid of the entire fleet type (and for what, hmmmm? thats right, Dash 8's). No company ever ordered that many of them... The Dash 8 is the second most popular regional turboprop behind the Saab with 4 avail variants seating from 37 to 78, and is still in production. The Do-328 was a commercial failure in both the prop and jet versions, sorry.
Fact is that the Do328 was a MNX pig before the bankruptcy of Fairchild, and now it is just worse. Im not the one that made the fleet plan up, I just read about it from the court records. I understand your wanting to be proud of your A/C, and you should be. It is a safe, fast, and sharp looking machine that any pilot would like to drive. But in terms of creating profit for US Airways it is not the equal of the Dash 8, that is why Group has 3 times as many of them...
Think about it, Jetstream never picked up the additional 25 options it had on the aircraft. Horizon went to the expense to get rid of the entire fleet type (and for what, hmmmm? thats right, Dash 8's). No company ever ordered that many of them... The Dash 8 is the second most popular regional turboprop behind the Saab with 4 avail variants seating from 37 to 78, and is still in production. The Do-328 was a commercial failure in both the prop and jet versions, sorry.
Fact is that the Do328 was a MNX pig before the bankruptcy of Fairchild, and now it is just worse. Im not the one that made the fleet plan up, I just read about it from the court records. I understand your wanting to be proud of your A/C, and you should be. It is a safe, fast, and sharp looking machine that any pilot would like to drive. But in terms of creating profit for US Airways it is not the equal of the Dash 8, that is why Group has 3 times as many of them...
328dude
Still turning two
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 1,647
Smoking man. I have the data and your correct. Im not going to rant about who's airplane is better, but we were already told that the Dorniers are going away. The leases on our aircraft expire early in 2003 and which time they will not be renewed. What they replace them with is anybody's guess. Hell, I'll fly a Caravan around if it keeps everyone at ALG, PDT and PSA on property.
Dakota, the leases on the Dash's run well beyond whats left on the Dornier. (simply because of the amount of Dash's compared to the Dork) That's a fact that has been long been established. However, the 35 aircraft leaving your property has been verified by your MEC's. If you dont believe me. listen to the hotline, I record the freaking thing and have to verify everything before I record it. (your MEC verified it as well as USAirways in Arlington)
Dakota, the leases on the Dash's run well beyond whats left on the Dornier. (simply because of the amount of Dash's compared to the Dork) That's a fact that has been long been established. However, the 35 aircraft leaving your property has been verified by your MEC's. If you dont believe me. listen to the hotline, I record the freaking thing and have to verify everything before I record it. (your MEC verified it as well as USAirways in Arlington)
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