Piedmont/Allegheny rumor

[Beavis]

Rumor has it PDT and ALG are to be shut down!

Piedmont is turning in 2 more Dashs in Oct, closing the TPA crewbase in NOv, and possibly closing JAX in Jan. That coincides with the return of 11 more a/c!!!!!

Dont worry, sell out PSA will survive.

PDT and ALG both had their concessionary TA's pulled off the table by U management, over a succorship clause that allows them to be sold under the terms under the concessionary contract, which were to be the lowest rates in the industry!!!

AAAAAHHHHHGGGG!!!!

 

[d328pilot]

The company is seeking relief for 35 turboprop leases in the latest filing with the court. All are dash 8s. As far as your comment about PSA, I was upset at first when our MEC ratified our concessions for the pilot group. But now, I am glad that i will have a job. I am sorry for what is happening at PDT and ALG but what were we supposed to do. Nobody wants to be out on the street right now. Everyone at U is having to take concessions. Seigel said from the beginning that this would happen if things took too long. I am not going to try to justify anything because i dont think we did anything wrong, and it doesnt matter what i think, you already made your mind up...I have to go to sleep..I have to fly tomorrow.

 

[Beavis]

Wow Newsouth, spewing such venom and hatred at the PDT pilots! Well, I fly for PDT, and I cant say you are totally wrong. The old guard has been pounding their chest for years about the good contract, which it was!!! Those gains were hard fought over years, by men who felt that a regional pilot deserved better pay and working conditions. All while pilots at Mesa, etc.... were "flying for free". It is true, that the substandard contracts at the contract carriers ---- and our own contract ---- is why we are where we are now. But to accept the concessionary conditions that we did, makes us no better than any pilot group that accepted one in the past. But it really doesnt matter. After accepting lower than standard pay, Airways reniged on the TA agreement ----- twice!

As far as PSA, you go on and feel good to have a job, while 1,000 pilots at PDT and ALG hit the streets. Unified???? I guess not. But hey, you have a job!

 

[DorkProp]

I honestly fail to see how PSA in any way affected the situations at PDT and ALG.

Most pilots here were very upset when our MEC ratified our contract, and then ratified concessions without a pilot vote. However, many of us, though I can't speak for everyone, realize now that the MEC took the best course of action for the pilots at the time, with the information they had. If we had voted down the contract and then later the concessions, we'd be in danger of shutting down now as well.

PSA pilots in no way sold out anybody else in the industry. Our contract, while not industry-leading, did have some significant improvements. This is also only our third contract. I fail to see how we have sold out PDT and ALG.

What should we have done? The writing was on the wall for us as well. We can't fly the dorks indefinitely. If we had said no to JfJ we'd all be out of a job as they whittled away our fleet over the next couple of years. Do you honestly think we should have shot ourself in the foot out of sympathy for PDT and ALG? That by taking a hard-line stance against management we would have somehow saved all three WO's? That doesn't make any sense.

PSA jumped on board so that we could have a part in the restructured US Airways' future. Just as all the labor groups at U have done as well.

I don't fully understand the circumstances at PDT or ALG, though I respect your collective decisions. May I suggest that you don't understand the circumstances at PSA? Otherwise I'll just dismiss your opinions as "sour grapes."

 

[PDTGIMP]

Hey NEWMOUTH,

Did you fail outta training here at PDT?

Okay,

I'm not buying all these rumors-people inside U need to take a freakin' chill pill and just see what plays out. Everyone is jumpin' ship and I'm watching my senority rocket higher, and although it may last only until Jan. it's "phun" while it lasts!

PSA is "good people" and they didn't have much of a contract before concessions anyway. That said, they don't have any shinny little RJ's yet. Nor, does Mid Atlantic, or Midway. Yeah, PDT and ALG will prob. MERGE into something else-but it's impossible to just say one day-um, let's shut down PDT and ALG today-now you have no Express ground people at two hubs, no maint. either since ALG runs WO maint. in PHL and PDT does it in CLT. Then, all that ground equipment needs to be maintained-PDT does it in CLT and ALG in PHL. Things are going to change for the worse but it's going to be like COEX-everyone merges into one, people will be furloughed and bases will close.

All these stupid rumors make me laugh-'cause I used to listen to them. The funny part is you would have thought I would have learned a lesson during the merger period. POT is going to become Metrojet-were going to merge with POT to break the union, russian Yak's are coming to PDT-you name it it was spread around.

Let's not let it get to our heads!

 

[j-3]

There is any facts for this rumor. I have three years seniority and I was wondering if I should bail out before the boat sink.

 

[chperplt]

Rumor or not, ALG is losing quite a few of its routes on 11/3/02.

 

[j-3]

Alabama Pension Systems is on the game now!?$

NEW YORK (AP) - Alabama's public-employee pension fund has offered to invest $240 million in a restructured US Airways Group, topping by 20 percent an offer made in August by private-equity firm Texas Pacific Group.

The offer was sent in a letter to US Airways President David Siegel on Wednesday and was being filed in federal bankruptcy court in Alexandria, Va.

The Retirement System of Alabama would receive a 37.5 percent stake in the airline, assuming it successfully emerges from bankruptcy.

David Bronner, chief executive of the pension fund, predicted US Airways would fully reorganize under Chapter 11 by January and that the investment would be well worth it.

"The minute (the airline) comes out of bankruptcy, it will be worth $1.5 billion to $2 billion," Bronner said.

Bronner said the offer starts a 60-day due diligence period during which others can make offers, raising the possibility of a bidding war for control of the airline.

The Retirement System of Alabama, which has $25 billion in assets, already owns about $340 million in US Airways debt. The airline has used the financing to purchase airplanes and equipment.

The Alabama pension fund said its offer was fair to shareholders and that bidding provisions contained in Texas Pacific's proposal "hardly create a level playing field."

Texas Pacific agreed to invest $200 million in US Airways as part of a debtor-in-possession financing agreement arranged when US Airways filed for bankruptcy-court protection on Aug. 11.

 

[sleepy]

Wow Newsouth, spewing such venom and hatred at the PDT pilots! Well, I fly for PDT, and I cant say you are totally wrong. The old guard has been pounding their chest for years about the good contract, which it was!!! Those gains were hard fought over years, by men who felt that a regional pilot deserved better pay and working conditions. All while pilots at Mesa, etc.... were "flying for free". It is true, that the substandard contracts at the contract carriers ---- and our own contract ---- is why we are where we are now. But to accept the concessionary conditions that we did, makes us no better than any pilot group that accepted one in the past. But it really doesnt matter. After accepting lower than standard pay, Airways reniged on the TA agreement ----- twice!

As far as PSA, you go on and feel good to have a job, while 1,000 pilots at PDT and ALG hit the streets. Unified???? I guess not. But hey, you have a job!

Beavis,

Right on! I hope we hire all of your pilots at ASA and Comair. That is the attitude we all need.

 

[blzr]

If Midatlantic gets off the ground, and IF there are going to be 400 rj's at US Scare, then there should be plenty of flying for us all.

If anyone from PDT union reads this, why are we kept in the dark? If management would just give us SOME idea where the ship is heading, maybe we could go along with some of the stuff in the TA.

As to PSA, we at PDT were never in "Negotiations" with US Air. Basically, they were demanding that we take concessions without them even putting anything on the table. No hints at RJ's, Job Security, or expantion. Just concessions.

How about filling us, the pilot group, in on what's going on.

 

[blzr]

Newsouth??

You need a new attitude. you are about to find out HOW HARD Mainline can stick it in your ass. Those aren't your RJ's anymore, they are for your mainline brothers. It's a Dump and Flush system. You are going to get dumped on and then flushed out of the system by 737 FO's. Hope you have plenty of KY jelly, you gonna need it pal.

After your last ILS, I bet you couldn't even find the seat cushion... Yeah, you a real pilot..

 

[LR25]

Some of you guys talk about PDT pilots like we are driving C-172's around or something.

If you made $27 an hour, would you want a furloughed mainliner to come on board to fill 50% of the seats and make double than what you are.

Where is the justice in that?

What, a Dash is a piece of junk becuase it has props, granted, it aint as sexy (to the pax) as a RJ, but come on, it takes a whole lot more skill to fly the Dash than any RJ, not to mention more comfortable than an RJ also, or 737.

No hard working pilot deserves the BS that is being delivered on this thread.

Hey newsouth, what group of pilots are PDT guys bashing?

 

[Smoking Man]

Beavis

I understand how you feel about the rumors! Remember D.C. Air rumors (and the actual 8K filing on the (PSA) JIA operational certificate). Where was the unification then? As I remember those times we were out on our own until POT came into the picture.

Although labeling PSA as a sell out when the pilot group has NOT voted on any anything, our new contract, LOA81, consessions, Jets for Jobs etc, is not that fair. Now I know that our MEC who is our elected officals did vote in all of the above, the pilot group is still miffed about all that has ratified without a vote.

I hate to see any of the Wholly ownes getting an additional shaft, but the group at PSA did not get to cast our individual vote on the equation.

I believe that you have already made up you mind about PSA, but remember we still only have PROPS.


Smoking Man

 

[Beavis]

Smoking man.....

First off, smoking is bad for you. You should quit that habit!

Second, I have nothing against ANY pilot at PSA. You guys are all right. If any WO does ok, well, thats a start. It is upsetting that we all didnt stick together, though, and U management used your contract as a way to whipsaw us ---- to your benefit. I know you all think it sucks what is happening to ALG and PDT! At PDT, we agreed to PSA jet rates, MINUS 3% ---- because we wanted to keep our defined benefit package. What more could we do. We also agreed to J4J and signed a concessionary TA for 8% paycuts in the dash for 7 years!!! This wasnt good enough for U! So, here we are. It just sucks that some of your guys attitude is, "well, at least I have a job!" So, we are not all that unified in our objective. Anyway, good luck to all my WO brothers, and all the guys at PSA, PDT and ALG!! As for me, I'm jumping off this ship as of Oct! I'll miss 'Flying the Flag!'

 

[d328pilot]

My response of "at least i have a job" was because I was called a sellout.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

fine

What would have happened if PSA, Piedmont, and Allegheny had all said "No" to Dave?

 

[Beavis]

d328pilot

I dont mean to refer to you as a sellout. I think YOUR management and MEC sold you out, as well as the other WO pilots by undermining their negotiations! After all, how could we be players in the game when U management comes to us so early on with, ' we have PSA signed up already for dirt cheap rates!' I mean, come on.......how do we negotiate when you guys agreed to RJ rates LESS than our DHC-8 rates??? We had to negotiate down!!!

Anyway, enjoy your job, and good luck!

 

[FR8mastr]

Just a reminder, The day that ML management came to all of us and demanded our jobs. (all on the same day) One company signed away, another company agreed in principle and singed away. Only 1 company did what we agreed to do and speak with a unified voice and not agree to the extorsion!

 

[LearLove]

F'in A Brother. Only one carrier and I'm proud to be apart of it. Will we be destroyed because of it? There's a good chance but like I've said before We are a strong bunch (most of us) and we'll go down swingin' hard core, then get up dust ourselves off and move on.

 

[328dude]

You know, I can honestly say that I feel very bad for you guys and gals and ALG and PDT as most of us at PSA have friends, family and spouses (female PDT capt married to a PSA capt.) at both carriers. We are very much concerned about what is going on over there.

We have not heard anything since the ratification by our MEC and that the fact that ALG and PDT's was taken off the table by a succership clause.

I hated to hear that 35 Dash 8 leases are being turned in. 12 at ALG and 23 at PDT. We all know that this means more furloughes. This will probebly get flamed to all HE.L.L, but PSA will hire any furlughed WO pilot if you want to keep your number and stay with the flag. That came out of one of the chief pilots mouths.

I also believe COMAIR will help as well.

 

[ChinaClipper]

Newsouth lighten up......

I for one, have been attacked on this board by a few WO's types who still belive Mesa pilots have a say in where we fly, and at what cost. I have tried to explain that the WO's benefitted A LOT when Mainline downsized and they benefitted (mid/late 80's) The most venomous of those posters seemed to have a sudden case of amnesia when it came to villifying"lower cost providers" when THEY wer ethe lower cost provider than the gazillion 737's that used to fly from ROA etc. The sad fact is that there managers have been shafing them for quite a while and a easy outlet for that frustration has been Mesa and other contract carriers. Celebrating thier potential demise would be justified after all the crew room BS, intentionally blocked calls (the Feds got involved in that one) and being cut off on the ramp by a few disgruntled WO' pilots. I won't be one of them. Seeing any pilot cracked in the knees by managers for not toeing the line is a sad day for all. Instead of those vocal sad sacks irrationally blaming contract carriers for all that bad in the world, a wiser move would be to start ORGANIZING A RESPONSE! The more RJ's that get to the Express operators means POWER! Shut up with all the bellyaching and stop wishing it was still Sept 10th. Its a new ball game and UNITY IN PURPOSE should trump rivalry's of old. I hope it happens.........

 

[Beavis]

Whatever!

Keep lowering the bar and feeling good about yourself! The reason were up **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** creek is because ML management has you to whipsaw us into working for less pay and crappier workrules!! Instead of you coming UP, to meet us....we are being forced to lower the bar to where you have set it!

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Beavis

Hey Beavis,

Lighten up!

Is it that guys fault where his company tells him to fly? What airplane he flies? What color they paint it?

NO! He got a job with Mesa airlines. Big deal. You got a job with Piedmont or Allegheny. So what? If your management says, "Hey Beavis, we need you to fly from LaGuardia to Buffalo" you dont decline because it used to be a MAINLINE flight do you?

You dont say, "Hell no! Not while 1100 of my mainline brothers are on the street!"

You just do what you're told. So does he, and so do I. You expected him to turn down a job with Mesa because they paid less than Comair or Eagle or Piedmont? Gimmeabreak.

How about our good friends at Jetblue and AirTran? I guess they shouldnt have accepted jobs with THOSE companies since they are getting paid less than their counterparts who fly the A320 for Northwest or United?

Oh wait, thats not what you're mad about. You're mad because he's codesharing for YOUR company. Beavis!! Wake up...thats not HIS fault. He has no say in how US Airways chooses to allocate its flying!

He shows up for work, flies the airplane, goes home and collects a paycheck -- no different than you.

The sooner we all start acting like brothers, the better chance we have of surviving the "new" airline industry that we're all fighting to build careers in.

Respectfully,
FurloughedAgain
(but currently a proud wholly-owned F/O)

 

[ChinaClipper]

see what I mean Vern.......

God, I rue posting here some times......Some more facts 1) Lowering the bar? Mesa is in Sec 6 now and trying to fix a crappy SIX YEAR OLD CONTRACT. A contract that, as it now stands, is being undercut by WO's concessions. Some bar lowering. Nothing personal, but those are the facts, I have seen it in print. 2) Mesa's old contract consolidated NUMEROUS USAirways express carriers under one contract. Had it not been done, you would have Liberty, Crown, Florida Gulf, Air MidWest and Mesa ALL as likely whipsaw candidates. Your welcome...... 3) The Wholly Owneds EXIST TO SERVE MAINLINE! If they don't need ya, your gone. Thinking you are a more "special" product than anyone else is being in denial! Whats your position on the Easter Bunny? 5) WO's have no juice, the main product is mainline flying, you have nothing to leverage as is the case with any other Express operator. I personally feel the goal is to get to a mainline operation, not get fat dumb and happy at a regional and get lulled into a false sense of security. I am not suggesting that getting the best deal you can for the leverage you have is bad at all. But when the leverage runs out, history shows you get sent packing. But what do I know, I come from a familiy with 140 years of combined airline experience; PAA, WAL, one UAL "570", WN Bankruptcies, hostile take overs, strikes and all the drama that comes with it.......trust me, get working as one or get hung individually......

 

[ChinaClipper]

Hey Furloughed Again....

nice back hand, do you play tennis? Seriously though, I call for burying the hatchet......in managements back for taking advantage of Sept 11th to do what they couldn't do otherwise; rearrainge the stack to THEIR advantage, not ours. The important thing is where do we go from here and keep enough people on the payroll with out getting the shaft REALLY bad. Lick your wounds and save enough rifleman for another day......SOON! PS Hey CLT USAir types, No one is barred from my jumpseat except Scabs. Don't be shy and bring beer......

 

[dakotaHC8]

"A contract that, as it now stands, is being undercut by WO's concessions..."

Look Kid, we set the level that all other regionals have strived to reach way BACK IN 1994, and we still have stuff AFTER concessions that no/few other regionals have. Undercut...? We lost half of our flying and all future growth opportunities into RJ's because of how much cheaper your so called contract was. How dare you give us grief when half of our list at ALG was furloughed when USAir sold OUR planes/routes to MESA in 1994...?

You want to fight for a real contract with real improvements that will earn you real respect, go for it. But it will never happen because at heart you have already lost.

It is BECAUSE of the rapant atttitude amoungst the MESA pilot group represented by your quote..." I personally feel the goal is to get to a mainline operation, not get fat dumb and happy at a regional and get lulled into a false sense of security..." THIS is what has fostered a willingness to accept subavererage pay and work rules in return for a quick upgrade and jet equipment. All JO has to do is provide growth (by say, giving you the Freedom jets that were yours in the first place = zero cost to MESA) and you guys will cave, am I right?

I do not see what you are complaining about. You agreed to work at MESA, you knew what MESA management was like, and had to have a clue about the unwritten agreement that your pilot group would work for less in return for future opportunities (even at others' expense). Just because the majors will not be hiring for the next few years and you might have to stick around a bit at MESA have you all of the sudden found a desire to improve things. Im real impressed with your pilot groups' zeal, but I just wonder if it is sincire...

In the mean time, WE will do what we have to do to help OUR company SURVIVE. (I havent seen MESA AIR GROUP offer any concessions to US AIRWAYS to help out). We will bite the bullet and COME DOWN to your level to compete. (Because we dont compete against COEX or ACA, we compete against YOU). We WILL take advantage of our situation being a part of US Airways and do what we have to do to reequip our fleet and keep future growth and profits in house and on the property.

As for the future, when we can hire again, we will once again be THE place to work for, with the opportunities we deserve as part of the US Airways family (you know the part that has sacrificed to help ensure the US Airways' future). Dont like our concessions making it tougher for your negotiations (well then I guess yoiu know how we have felt about your contract for almost a decade).

Yeah, we'll "get working" as you suggested, just dont be surprised when we are

 

[dakotaHC8]

"I hated to hear that 35 Dash 8 leases are being turned in. 12 at ALG and 23 at PDT. "

Look, I hate to break it to you, but the fleet plan over the next few years shows an elimination of the entire DO-328 fleet BEFORE the Dash 8's are retired. I know that the DO-328 is newer, but it is also much more expensive and less profitable to operate than the DHC-8. As it is with the mainline aircraft in the 150#, these dash leases are being renegotiated. Group wants the flexibility to get rid of them only if they cannot obtain cheap enough lease rates.

Could ALG and PDT be shut down, sure, so could PSA. Being as we are still in direct negotiations with management and they have not approached the court (to deal with us there) I would say that liquidation is NOT their first choice (just a real threat).

We will finish out negotiations as have the other major labor groups, and then unlike PSA we will get a chance to vote upon it. If our pilot group ratifies the agreement then we will move forward and see what the next phase of Dave's master plan is.

IMHO it is not so hard to figure out, MDA flies 100-150 EMB-170/5's, the remaining 3 WO's will be merged and fly around 150 EMB-145's (and whatever turboprops still around).The remaining 100 AC will be flown by whichever contract carriers that are stupid enough to agree to jets for jobs (stupid because we have to, you guys dont....) In a few years, after the 2 WO's are all jet, then Dave will IPO us off (just like COEX) to raise capital for additional growth at mainline/pay down debt.

Enough about the downfall of the WO's, Since it looks like US Airways will survive (and prosper) then our future is secure as well. With our concessions and our labor agreements in place until 2009 it is in US Airways' economic interest to place the majority of the 50 seaters at Allepsamont.

Having Mesa or Trans States or Chatauqua continue to do all of the RJ flying no longer makes sense, especially when Mesa shows a profit while US Airways is in the red. where do you think those profits came from? Keeping that growth in house gives US Airways something to sell stock in later on, and profit from hereout.

 

[Smoking Man]

"Look, I hate to break it to you, but the fleet plan over the next few years shows an elimination of the entire DO-328 fleet BEFORE the Dash 8's are retired. I know that the DO-328 is newer, but it is also much more expensive and less profitable to operate than the DHC-8. "


Part of the reason that all of the Dorks will be gone is due to the Fairchild/Dornier Bankruptcy, parts are takeing a longer time to get PARTS, and the parts starting to cost more. (The Dorks will be in the desert before long (two years)), Before the Far/Dor bankruptcy I have a hard time with the dash being more profitable, even though you have more seats the extra 100 KIAS on the dork give it an extra round trip per day per airplane V/S the Dash. Gust my guess on the $$$ I do not have any data.



Smoking Man

 

[dakotaHC8]

Cmon, use logic... If the DO328 was a money maker, then there would have been a bigger market for the plane.

Think about it, Jetstream never picked up the additional 25 options it had on the aircraft. Horizon went to the expense to get rid of the entire fleet type (and for what, hmmmm? thats right, Dash 8's). No company ever ordered that many of them... The Dash 8 is the second most popular regional turboprop behind the Saab with 4 avail variants seating from 37 to 78, and is still in production. The Do-328 was a commercial failure in both the prop and jet versions, sorry.

Fact is that the Do328 was a MNX pig before the bankruptcy of Fairchild, and now it is just worse. Im not the one that made the fleet plan up, I just read about it from the court records. I understand your wanting to be proud of your A/C, and you should be. It is a safe, fast, and sharp looking machine that any pilot would like to drive. But in terms of creating profit for US Airways it is not the equal of the Dash 8, that is why Group has 3 times as many of them...

 

[328dude]

Smoking man. I have the data and your correct. Im not going to rant about who's airplane is better, but we were already told that the Dorniers are going away. The leases on our aircraft expire early in 2003 and which time they will not be renewed. What they replace them with is anybody's guess. Hell, I'll fly a Caravan around if it keeps everyone at ALG, PDT and PSA on property.

Dakota, the leases on the Dash's run well beyond whats left on the Dornier. (simply because of the amount of Dash's compared to the Dork) That's a fact that has been long been established. However, the 35 aircraft leaving your property has been verified by your MEC's. If you dont believe me. listen to the hotline, I record the freaking thing and have to verify everything before I record it. (your MEC verified it as well as USAirways in Arlington)