PIC vs. signing for aircraft

[flyboy]

Dogg

I understand completely what you are saying. However, I've flown 2 missed approaches in the 200: one at Dallas Love and one in Ashville N.C. One of them resulted in a hold (DAL) and the other for another vector in mountainous terrain (AVL). All of this was done hand flying the airplane (except for the hold). With all due respect, I just don't see that as, "the captain letting me fly it for a little while." The chief pilot is ex-airline and an MEI. He's a great teacher and more often than not gives me the airplane from preflight to shoving the foam in the turbine inlets. Are the regionals really not going to see this time as valuable? If they don't, than this journey seems like a real waste of my time.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Just keep two columns:

1. Part 61 defined PIC (sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft in which you are qualified)

2. Part 1 defined PIC (signed for the plane)

keep it simple.

 

[xjcaptain]

Two whole misses and a hold.............WOW! Should make for a riviting story at the next interview.

 

[dogg]

Flyboy, Of course they will see this as valueable time.....Just don't call it PIC time until they cut you loose with the airplane on your own. Like I said, log everything that is clearly legal as PIC but keep track of the difference and in the interview tell them that you flew it in the left seat and had lots of responsibility. They will love that but dont get the interview from that PIC column and then have to explain that it is only legal and not really command time......trust me

 

[Eric]

If you don't get the interview, it is a moot point. Keep two colums.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

If you don't get the interview, it is a moot point. Keep two colums.

Worse yet...you do get the interview and they take a look at your logbook and start frowning.

Two columns...yes.

 

[Snoopy58]

As was explained by one who looks at logbooks when he does interviews:

If a logbook looks like this:
1.5 PIC
1.5 SIC
2.3 PIC
2.3 SIC
1.4 PIC
1.4 SIC
...
1.5 PIC
1.8 PIC
1.3 PIC
2.7 PIC

then as far as he is concerned, the time logged as PIC when every other leg is SIC, while perfectly legal by FAR 61, and arguably legal by FAR 1 and by SWA's web site for how they want time reported, is NOT "the guy in charge & responsible for the aircraft." Until you're logging EVERY leg PIC (even the ones you aren't sole manipulator), you are NOT in charge of the aircraft!

Now, for a guy who has 3000 hours TPIC & the first 700 of it is one leg PIC, one leg SIC, it's no big deal, because for 2300 hours the guy HAS been running the show & making the decisions when things get tough. HOWEVER, if somebody shows up at the interview with 1200 hours TPIC, and the first 700 of it looks like this, well, then things get sticky. The interviewer then has to wonder if this candidate REALLY has the experience it will take to be successful out on the line.

Everybody can read FAR 61 and FAR 1 and the various airlines' websites as far as what you put down on the app goes. But, when a place wants 1000 hours of "YOU DA MAN in charge of a turbine-powered aerospace machine," the time that you sat in the left seat manipulating the controls with the real boss in the right seat running the radios & making the decisions isn't really what they're looking for.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Snoopy,

Very well said. Why is this so dificult to understand???

 

[kingairip]

AIRinc has an intelligent article on their guestframe regarding this subject. It's called "Clearing the Air on Logging PIC Time." Here's a link:
http://www.jet-jobs.com/guestframe.html

From there, you'll find it under "Free Samples - Career Articles."

It may be hard to swallow, but it looks like Hugh, Sheriff, dogg, Snoopy et al are absolutely correct.

 

[Timebuilder]

I think the answer is this: they are not interested in who can "legally log" PIC time.

They ARE interested in WHO WAS PIC.

And that difference is clear, isn't it?

Its FAR 1.

 

[Hawker rider]

you can truly log whatever you want. No big deal.

Once you get through an interview and the experienced recruiters will immediatly see during a simulator ride if the hours that you state in your application are true hours and not made up.

If you happen to log a lot of PIC time but can't make a sound decision stick....... well you get my drift.

There is also such a thing as not telling the truth on an application/resume that you use to get a job. If the company finds out that you did not use truthfull information they have the right to terminate you at will.

Be carefull what you log though, it'll stay with you for the rest of your career.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

who gets the PIC credit in a flight instructing environment? The person logging dual given or the one logging dual recieved?
What about when the student is PIC because the instructor can't be PIC? (expired medical, ect.)

 

[enigma]

Here's the question boys and girls:

I recently completed and passed my 135 PIC checkride in the King Air. As a result I now fly (pilot flying) from the Left seat on every other leg.

This sentence would seem to indicate that your company is a 135 operator. If so, one of the two pilots is designated as PIC by the certificate holder. You shouldn't log PIC if the other guy is the designated PIC.

Now, I know I can legally log these legs as PIC. But I'm not a "company captain" yet and, as such, I don't sign for the flight, although I legally could.

Why did the company give you a 135PIC ride if they were not going to utilize you as a PIC? How could you be a 135 PIC, but not yet have been made a "company Captain"?

In the eyes of airlines and other future employers--is my left seat PIC time really not PIC time?

In the eyes of the airlines, and most employers, there can only be one PIC on a flight. If the other guy is the certificate designated PIC, that leaves you with NO airline acceptable PIC.

If my current employer blessed me with the title of "co-captain" would that make a difference?

NO, the airlines want to see the time in which you were the final authority for the operation of the aircraft, and in which you were the responsible party.

Some have said that you need two columns in your logbook, I agree. Except that I wouldn't bother to log any time as PIC in which there was a designated PIC aboard. To do so raises way too many questions in an interview. The quickest way to get turned down is to have an appearance of deception. Don't gamble your career on a few lousy KingAir hours. Have you tried to get the company to designate you PIC for Part 91 legs?

I would advise you to work hard, and convince your boss that you deserve to be given the official Captain designation. If the boss is a good guy, he should be willing to give you the designation every once in a while. If he doesn't give you the time, it should tell you something. To bolster this point let me give you the example of an airline flight in which a management pilot, say the CP, has to cover for an ill FO. The originally scheduled Captain stays Captain, the CP logs SIC. I.E., the highest qualified (assuming that the CP is in fact the highest qualified) need not be the PIC and it is perfectly acceptable for the original Captain to log PIC even when flying with his CP.

BTW, this is all coming from a pilot who screwed up his first best chance at SWA because of almost the same problem. In my case, it was all part 91 with no designated Captain. I was a true co-Captain. Meaning that everyone was typed and the owner held both pilots equally responsible. But the airlines just don't like that kind of time.

good luck,
enigma

 

[captb]

Far part 1 defines pic as person signing for the aircraft.
Far part 61 defines pic as person who is typed flying. Some airlines want part 1 while others don't care. I keep a record of both and depending what that specific airline wants, that's what they get.

Like everything else, you have to play their game.

 

[enigma]

Like everything else, you have to play their game.

Exactly. I wish that I had just kept two seperate log books. One for the Feds and airlines who accept part 61 definitions, and another for the airlines who want part 1 time.

Just remember, whatever you do, don't do anything that a potential aviation employer might possibly be able to construe as dishonest or deceptive, with the realization that flight logs are the first place they look for deception and dishonesty.

good luck to all,
enigma