PIC vs. signing for aircraft

[Turbo]

Here's the question boys and girls:

I recently completed and passed my 135 PIC checkride in the King Air. As a result I now fly (pilot flying) from the Left seat on every other leg.

Now, I know I can legally log these legs as PIC. But I'm not a "company captain" yet and, as such, I don't sign for the flight, although I legally could. In the eyes of airlines and other future employers--is my left seat PIC time really not PIC time? If my current employer blessed me with the title of "co-captain" would that make a difference?

 

[CLCAP]

Most airlines will specify on their applications what they consider "PIC" time.

All the apps I've seen require you to be the designated captain - and it seems as they frown upon the "Co-Captain" concept. I have heard a rumor about Southwest accepting it - but I could definetely be wrong on that one.

 

[flyboy]

Turbo,

If that doesn't count as PIC time, I think we are all screwed. If you are qualified in the airplane and are the pilot flying it is absolutely REAL PIC. I've been through this crap over and over as a co-pilot on a king air 200 for a part 91 operation. People have told me that since my training was in-house that it won't count b/c it was not an "approved" training school. Well guess what? The INSURANCE COMPANIES are the ones going for the "approved" training schools, not the FAA. As a matter of fact, our insurance company recognizes the in-house training as sufficient. People have also told me that the only way to log it PIC is if you sign for the airplane. Well, we don't do any "signing" for the airplane. Then people will say that if your name isn't on the insurance policy then you must not log PIC. Once again, insurance companies don't dictate who can log PIC.
I've tried every possible way to log flight time and they are all legal per the regs. If airlines or other hiring companies don't see your time as "real" PIC, then I guess we low timers should just hang up our headsets and find something else to do. There is just no other way to get the time needed to get a better job.

PS: As you can tell, I'm a little bitter about the subject. Please forgive the thick sarcasm.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Turbo,

I've been through this crap over and over as a co-pilot on a king air 200 for a part 91 operation. People have told me that since my training was in-house that it won't count b/c it was not an "approved" training school. Well guess what? The INSURANCE COMPANIES are the ones going for the "approved" training schools, not the FAA. As a matter of fact, our insurance company recognizes the in-house training as sufficient. People have also told me that the only way to log it PIC is if you sign for the airplane. Well, we don't do any "signing" for the airplane. Then people will say that if your name isn't on the insurance policy then you must not log PIC.

Let me get this straight. And please correct me if I misunderstood you. You fly co-pilot on a Be-200, and you log it as PIC turbine. Is that correct???

If it is, you are free to do as you please. Your level of frustration is understandable, but that does not entitle a person to justify logging time anyway they see fit. Only you know if you are the PIC or not. Changing the definition because Turbine PIC is hard to some by is kinda lame. That being said it is your logbook and you are really free to log your time however you see fit.

 

[350DRIVER]

It is very simple, you log the time as PIC.

You are qualified to do such...

3 5 0

 

[Mel Sharples]

Big difference

There is a big difference to how you log it. If you are qualified in the plane, you can log it under part 91 as PIC. But if you are flying every other leg not as a company captain, then you can't log it under 135.

My friend was downgraded to f.o. after 9/11. He is typed in the plane but can't log PIC as he is not the captain. But a fed told him he can log PIC under 91 during that time that he is sole manipulator of the controls.

The difference? You can put turbine PIC in your logbook but all that time will be bunk for an airline interview. Don't forget -- the people interviewing aren't dumb and they know "questionable" time when they see it. I'm not slamming anyone, just saying be careful what and how you log your time. I would hate to have to justify it in an interview when you know they aren't buying it (or be prepared to show why you are right).

Call a FSDO anonymously if you have specific questions. They can actually be helpful with stuff like that and they don't make you give your name.

Good luck!

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

careful...

Be careful about what you are doing here. Some companies specify that they want Part 1 defined PIC, not 61. There's a big difference. If you are "qualified" in the plane, but are not the one with the final authority on that particular flight, you are NOT the pilot in COMMAND. The upside to this is that based on the part 1 definition, you don't need to be sole manipulator of the conrols or even be in the seat for that matter, just be aboard with your nuts on the line. I've always kept track of both versions and it's made filling out applications much easier. When I've been asked about it at interviews (only once, actually), it was easily exlplained as to how I figured my PIC time. And when I told the dude that I only claimed PIC when I had actually signed for the plane, even when I could have claimed a lot of other time, I think I came across as more authentic. Then again, maybe not.

 

[flyboy]

Let me get this straight. And please correct me if I misunderstood you. You fly co-pilot on a Be-200, and you log it as PIC turbine. Is that correct???

If it is, you are free to do as you please. Your level of frustration is understandable, but that does not entitle a person to justify logging time anyway they see fit. Only you know if you are the PIC or not. Changing the definition because Turbine PIC is hard to some by is kinda lame. That being said it is your logbook and you are really free to log your time however you see fit.

Metrosheriff,

Use a little common sense here. Do you actually believe that I log PIC, or any time for that matter, while working the radios? No. My job is co-pilot, however I fly every other leg and the "captain" works the radios when I'm flying. THAT is where I log the time.

 

[vclean]

It depends who you would like to work for. Most majors count the PIC time that you were the captain or the person who signed for the aircraft. You can log pic as the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for. You will need for separate the 'capt time' from the pic total for those airlines that discount PIC logged while not acting as PIC.

For example;

SouthWest defines PIC as the person responsible for the flight.
AirTran requires 500 hours PIC Part 121
JetBlue doesn't have a PIC turbine requirement, but 1,000 hrs in A/C over 20,000 GTOW
FedEx is 1,000 hrs PIC in A/C over 20,000 GTOW.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Metrosheriff,

Use a little common sense here. Do you actually believe that I log PIC, or any time for that matter, while working the radios? No. My job is co-pilot, however I fly every other leg and the "captain" works the radios when I'm flying. THAT is where I log the time.

Common sense...I see. By your definition of common sense I guess a Southwest F/O could log his legs as PF (Pilot Flying) as PIC time since he is type-rated in the a/c and the "Captain" (as you put it) is working the radios.

Is that your testimony???

Look dude, I know it is hard to break into the turbine gigs and even harder to land a spot that will get you PIC turbine. I've been there. Perserverance (sp) and hard work are the answer, not reinventing the definition of PIC to fit your needs. People aren't stupid and the know that some fella with 500 total AIN"T flyin' Captain on a King Air 200. Just doesn't happen. If for no other reason that most of the insurance underwriters in the country would fall over dead of a massive coronary (not that that would be a bad thing) if operators even asked.

That's my point. All that being said, log it however you want. It's your logbook.

BTW, to get an idea of where you stand, why not give us some info on your time and ratings.

TT
PIC/SIC
SEL/MEL
Turbine

Then we can tell you how it will look on interview day.

 

[dogg]

The best way to do it is log all legal PIC time and put a dot next to the lines that meet "interview acceptable" PIC time. Only include that time on resumes and applications. Often you will meet insurance mins or company mins to qualify in an airplane with legal PIC so it is good to keep a record of all PIC time. There is not a large regional/national/major airline in the country that wants to see "co-captain or part 91" PIC time on there application or your resume. They are interested in how much time you spent being the sole decision maker/final authority onboard an aircraft and could care less how the FAA defines PIC time.....

 

[MetroSheriff]

The best way to do it is log all legal PIC time and put a dot next to the lines that meet "interview acceptable" PIC time. Only include that time on resumes and applications. Often you will meet insurance mins or company mins to qualify in an airplane with legal PIC so it is good to keep a record of all PIC time. There is not a large regional/national/major airline in the country that wants to see "co-captain or part 91" PIC time on there application or your resume. They are interested in how much time you spent being the sole decision maker/final authority onboard an aircraft and could care less how the FAA defines PIC time.....

I think Dogg just hit the nail on the head. Well said.

 

[flyboy]

Metrosheriff,

We're not talking about getting a job at the majors here. I don't think I"m going to get a job at Southwest airlines with my "PIC turbine". However, are you suggesting that after being trained for the aircraft and operating in the part 91 environment that I shouldn't log PIC when the sole manipulator of the controls? I sure hope that's not what you are suggesting b/c if it is, YOU are wrong. ALso, what would my times have to do with being legal to log PIC? My career goal right now is to get on with a small regional (great lakes, colgan, etc.) that flys turboprop equipment (then move up). I feel that they will find my time valuable and will be impressed with any oral questioning concerning the 200. Once again, I've been trained on the aircraft (emergency procedures, high altitude ops, powerplant, aerodynamics, environmental, and everything else in the POH). My times are as follows.

TT 1020
ME 79
Instrument 281
PIC 940
Turbine 41

 

[hawkercpt]

Dude...

If your qualified and flying the airplane, LOG IT! There are some companies that require your PIC time on the application to be as the "final authority" or the one who "signed" for the aircraft. When that time comes adjust your times accordingly.

 

[dogg]

Flyboy, they will be just as impressed with you not trying to come across as having time that you really don't have....The colgans and the great lakes are very interested in your turbine time and your multi-engine time and how much time you have spent in an airplane that is operating in crappy weather and slippery runways, thunderstorms etc...and I am sure that in an interview if you were able to show them that at times the "captain" let you fly in the left seat to gain experience they would be impressed as well.....but when you advertise pilot in command time, everyone from the 2 airplane operator to the 200 airplane operator will want you to back that up...in other words were you the one that was truly sweating it on that second missed approach with your alternate deteriorating and making the decision to bail right now and find a dry clear patch of pavement or was the guy in the right seat really the one making that decision..........that is what we are all talking about and until you have been there dont come across as though you have............relax and enjoy the ride,, you are on the right track

 

[flyboy]

Dogg

I understand completely what you are saying. However, I've flown 2 missed approaches in the 200: one at Dallas Love and one in Ashville N.C. One of them resulted in a hold (DAL) and the other for another vector in mountainous terrain (AVL). All of this was done hand flying the airplane (except for the hold). With all due respect, I just don't see that as, "the captain letting me fly it for a little while." The chief pilot is ex-airline and an MEI. He's a great teacher and more often than not gives me the airplane from preflight to shoving the foam in the turbine inlets. Are the regionals really not going to see this time as valuable? If they don't, than this journey seems like a real waste of my time.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Just keep two columns:

1. Part 61 defined PIC (sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft in which you are qualified)

2. Part 1 defined PIC (signed for the plane)

keep it simple.

 

[xjcaptain]

Two whole misses and a hold.............WOW! Should make for a riviting story at the next interview.

 

[dogg]

Flyboy, Of course they will see this as valueable time.....Just don't call it PIC time until they cut you loose with the airplane on your own. Like I said, log everything that is clearly legal as PIC but keep track of the difference and in the interview tell them that you flew it in the left seat and had lots of responsibility. They will love that but dont get the interview from that PIC column and then have to explain that it is only legal and not really command time......trust me

 

[Eric]

If you don't get the interview, it is a moot point. Keep two colums.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

If you don't get the interview, it is a moot point. Keep two colums.

Worse yet...you do get the interview and they take a look at your logbook and start frowning.

Two columns...yes.

 

[Snoopy58]

As was explained by one who looks at logbooks when he does interviews:

If a logbook looks like this:
1.5 PIC
1.5 SIC
2.3 PIC
2.3 SIC
1.4 PIC
1.4 SIC
...
1.5 PIC
1.8 PIC
1.3 PIC
2.7 PIC

then as far as he is concerned, the time logged as PIC when every other leg is SIC, while perfectly legal by FAR 61, and arguably legal by FAR 1 and by SWA's web site for how they want time reported, is NOT "the guy in charge & responsible for the aircraft." Until you're logging EVERY leg PIC (even the ones you aren't sole manipulator), you are NOT in charge of the aircraft!

Now, for a guy who has 3000 hours TPIC & the first 700 of it is one leg PIC, one leg SIC, it's no big deal, because for 2300 hours the guy HAS been running the show & making the decisions when things get tough. HOWEVER, if somebody shows up at the interview with 1200 hours TPIC, and the first 700 of it looks like this, well, then things get sticky. The interviewer then has to wonder if this candidate REALLY has the experience it will take to be successful out on the line.

Everybody can read FAR 61 and FAR 1 and the various airlines' websites as far as what you put down on the app goes. But, when a place wants 1000 hours of "YOU DA MAN in charge of a turbine-powered aerospace machine," the time that you sat in the left seat manipulating the controls with the real boss in the right seat running the radios & making the decisions isn't really what they're looking for.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Snoopy,

Very well said. Why is this so dificult to understand???

 

[kingairip]

AIRinc has an intelligent article on their guestframe regarding this subject. It's called "Clearing the Air on Logging PIC Time." Here's a link:
http://www.jet-jobs.com/guestframe.html

From there, you'll find it under "Free Samples - Career Articles."

It may be hard to swallow, but it looks like Hugh, Sheriff, dogg, Snoopy et al are absolutely correct.

 

[Timebuilder]

I think the answer is this: they are not interested in who can "legally log" PIC time.

They ARE interested in WHO WAS PIC.

And that difference is clear, isn't it?

Its FAR 1.

 

[Hawker rider]

you can truly log whatever you want. No big deal.

Once you get through an interview and the experienced recruiters will immediatly see during a simulator ride if the hours that you state in your application are true hours and not made up.

If you happen to log a lot of PIC time but can't make a sound decision stick....... well you get my drift.

There is also such a thing as not telling the truth on an application/resume that you use to get a job. If the company finds out that you did not use truthfull information they have the right to terminate you at will.

Be carefull what you log though, it'll stay with you for the rest of your career.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

who gets the PIC credit in a flight instructing environment? The person logging dual given or the one logging dual recieved?
What about when the student is PIC because the instructor can't be PIC? (expired medical, ect.)

 

[enigma]

Here's the question boys and girls:

I recently completed and passed my 135 PIC checkride in the King Air. As a result I now fly (pilot flying) from the Left seat on every other leg.

This sentence would seem to indicate that your company is a 135 operator. If so, one of the two pilots is designated as PIC by the certificate holder. You shouldn't log PIC if the other guy is the designated PIC.

Now, I know I can legally log these legs as PIC. But I'm not a "company captain" yet and, as such, I don't sign for the flight, although I legally could.

Why did the company give you a 135PIC ride if they were not going to utilize you as a PIC? How could you be a 135 PIC, but not yet have been made a "company Captain"?

In the eyes of airlines and other future employers--is my left seat PIC time really not PIC time?

In the eyes of the airlines, and most employers, there can only be one PIC on a flight. If the other guy is the certificate designated PIC, that leaves you with NO airline acceptable PIC.

If my current employer blessed me with the title of "co-captain" would that make a difference?

NO, the airlines want to see the time in which you were the final authority for the operation of the aircraft, and in which you were the responsible party.

Some have said that you need two columns in your logbook, I agree. Except that I wouldn't bother to log any time as PIC in which there was a designated PIC aboard. To do so raises way too many questions in an interview. The quickest way to get turned down is to have an appearance of deception. Don't gamble your career on a few lousy KingAir hours. Have you tried to get the company to designate you PIC for Part 91 legs?

I would advise you to work hard, and convince your boss that you deserve to be given the official Captain designation. If the boss is a good guy, he should be willing to give you the designation every once in a while. If he doesn't give you the time, it should tell you something. To bolster this point let me give you the example of an airline flight in which a management pilot, say the CP, has to cover for an ill FO. The originally scheduled Captain stays Captain, the CP logs SIC. I.E., the highest qualified (assuming that the CP is in fact the highest qualified) need not be the PIC and it is perfectly acceptable for the original Captain to log PIC even when flying with his CP.

BTW, this is all coming from a pilot who screwed up his first best chance at SWA because of almost the same problem. In my case, it was all part 91 with no designated Captain. I was a true co-Captain. Meaning that everyone was typed and the owner held both pilots equally responsible. But the airlines just don't like that kind of time.

good luck,
enigma

 

[captb]

Far part 1 defines pic as person signing for the aircraft.
Far part 61 defines pic as person who is typed flying. Some airlines want part 1 while others don't care. I keep a record of both and depending what that specific airline wants, that's what they get.

Like everything else, you have to play their game.

 

[enigma]

Like everything else, you have to play their game.

Exactly. I wish that I had just kept two seperate log books. One for the Feds and airlines who accept part 61 definitions, and another for the airlines who want part 1 time.

Just remember, whatever you do, don't do anything that a potential aviation employer might possibly be able to construe as dishonest or deceptive, with the realization that flight logs are the first place they look for deception and dishonesty.

good luck to all,
enigma