Piaggio Questions

[NJAowner]

I have asked some ?

OK. I have PMed Diesel many questions about the P-180 (and he has some questions on his own as well). I am looking at expanding my options for about 50 hours per year one a 1 to 1 1/2 hour flight, both from the East Coast and in the Rockies. Trying to decide whether to buy more NJA time (in a Hawker 400XP or Encore), go with a Piaggio or Pilatus. I donto need the range or size of my larger jet. With no disrespect to the Avantair or Planeair folks, the big decision revolces around overall safety, pilot experience, recurrent training, etc. I trust Diesel and have asked him lots of questions.


Fly safe.

Thanks to all.

 

[gunfyter]

You need to go to the Rockies in a Falcon. I don't see it listed in your aircraft flown list.

 

[brewerdog]

the wings are heated with bleed air, the cargo is in the back behind the wing-nice big door on the left side

I like the way it flys and lands, short fields are always more "sporting" but I have not had a real problem with crosswinds - yet

 

[skiandsurf]

Watched one load and go out of BUR the other day. Neat looking plane. Questions.

1. Looked like they needed external power to start the first engine....is this normal?

2. The front "wing" or canard looks really close to the door. Do you have problems with people hitting it and doing damage to it?

 

[Diesel]

Hey noodles if I remember you don't need acc/stop distance to be legal because its under 12500?

 

[C425Driver]

Watched one load and go out of BUR the other day. Neat looking plane. Questions.

1. Looked like they needed external power to start the first engine....is this normal?

2. The front "wing" or canard looks really close to the door. Do you have problems with people hitting it and doing damage to it?

The Piaggio can do battery starts but it doesn't have an APU so many people will ask for a GPU for a couple of reasons. We can get the clearance and set up the radios/FMS without draining the battery, and we can do this far enough in advance of our pax arrival so we are all set up when they show. We can also run the Air Conditioning to cool the cabin before the pax arrive.

Also, the forward wing is far enough in front of the door so there is not a problem with people hitting it.

C425Driver

 

[Noodles]

Hey noodles if I remember you don't need acc/stop distance to be legal because its under 12500?

The official company position is that only ground roll is required. Not saying I agree, but that's what they tell you.

 

[RollandPull]

Noodles data is likely to be 9 months out of date. Being that far out of date explains why he doesn’t have access to the performance charts in Supplement 36 which increased the MAGTOW to 12,100. It also supports the notion that he isn’t familiar with any current company policies at Avantair. His maintenance comments are equally biased. I assume he has no real data or comparisons in which to base his assertion. No offense Noodles, but if this thread is for exchanging information about the Piaggio or Avantair, I would assume that those reading would like to see current data that can be validated.

Diesel, the requirements for take off is based on certification. The P180 is a Part 23 aircraft (think King Air on steroids) and although it has many “jet like” characteristics, it is not a jet (Part 25 aircraft). Current charts show 117 to 125 KIAS for Approach speeds based on landing weights.

 

[Noodles]

Oh, I have lots of current data on both the company and the plane. I have access to that supplement, just don't care to read it. I also know the real reason why the Avanti II's have not been delivered, as well as why there is such a shortage of spare parts. I had an interesting conversation with one of the company mechanics the other day, but I'm sure you're not interested in the truth....

 

[myrealnameis]

How about you just stick to the aircraft info and save the haterade for another thread.

 

[Diesel]

Actually i'm more interested in the operations of the airplane. I'm also interested in part 91 operations and the availability of mx centers for the average owner.

Its a plane that doesn't have much information out there. Avantair guys have probably more time and wear and tear and know the most about them.

Please don't turn this into a company bashing thread.

 

[Noodles]

I'll be happy to answer your questions about the plane and what my experience in it has been. Feel free to PM, that would probably be best, so this doesn't turn into a "mines bigger than yours" thread.

 

[P180puke]

Just a couple of performance questions for avantair or piaggio guys.

Runway takeoff length at max gross
Landing distance
Fuel burn
Contaminated landing and takeoff numbers?

Thanks D

Diesel; sea level/standard day/ 0' gradient/0 wind

1) 3300' over 50ft obst.
However, Acc/stop 5800' (max brake no reverse)
2) 2400' max landing wt., no reverse over 50 ft. obst.
3) 800, 600, 600, 600 Works well (considering increased GW)
4) Takeoff

Dry snow max 20mm correction factor 1.75
Wet Snow 15mm 1.72
Slush 12mm 1.66
Standing H2O 12mm 1.66

Landing correction factors w/ reverse:
1.41
1.35
1.33

MX centers; IND, LAL, GYH, PBI, BJC, MHR, DTO,Ontario

Netjets owner:

The Pilatus is a respectable machine, but if fiscally possible; I wouldn't fly single engine anything over the rockies on a regular basis.

 

[GravityHater]

I have an important question about this airplane too.
How the heck do you pronounce, "Piaggio"??
I always feel like Im saying it wrong and might get punched in the mouth by some Italian standing nearby when I do butcher it.

 

[P180puke]

Pee-ah-jee-o or Pee-ah-she-o

But just say Belaggio, that's what atc calls it.

 

[P180puke]

glass thanks for the answer.

I hear the plane is tough to handle when it comes to crosswinds. If you're landeding on a contaminated runway would you do it with a crosswind? oh and the runway is about 3200ft. (lets say the numbers work for it)

I hear it a mx nightmare. Is that only the later numbers or are the newer ones mx problems too? Is there an external cargo area?

Sorry but the website really doesn't have much info.

ps how are the leading edges protected from ice?

Diesel,
It's only tough in crosswinds when pilots think too much about it. It flies no different than any other, but when reverse is intiated and the rudder blanks out as a result; asymetrical thrust is your friend. Due to the sensitivity of the steering and if you don't have the pedals aligned upon engagement (trying to control direction with useless rudder inputs), it can be a ride on the ground. Personally, I don't let low-time Piaggio guys land in good crosswinds if pax are on board for that reason. There's a lot of coordination going on all at one time.

4000' should be the common sense limit-with good traction. It comes in hot and generally needs AT LEAST that length to get back out (acc/stop). It's not an issue of you are empty and light; something we aren't often.

It gets the MX nightmare reputation because it was never designed to do what we do with it. Like a sports car (which this is) it needs preventive mx in some areas and consistent attention in others if you're going to fly it as many hours as we do. That's difficult to achieve when they're never home and you have some crews that treat them like they do their car. Some parts are hard to get, and as I lamented in another thread; avantair has issues with some vendors.

 

[gunfyter]

Sounds like the X.

 

[Diesel]

Thanks a ton I figured the props blank out the tail. We never had that problem so its good to know it is squirly. I think the parts are a major issue. Something I hope they get fixed.

I don't think the X is bad in crosswinds. Only got to watch the wingtip?