PFT vs. The Bubba Network

[LR25]

Buying a type, I have heard this one in the past also.

One question about that to you. If you want to work for SW, and you get a type to get the job, is that PFT?

Well, if SW was the only place in the world that flew 737's, maybe so. But if you didnt get the job for some reason at SW but you got another job somewhere else flying 73's, is that still PFT?

Does that mean getting an ATP is PFT, every airline to fly Capt. requires it!!!!! It just dont hold up the argument.

Its simple, you borrow money from Mama/bank to go get a job to fly, thats PFT.

 

[bobbysamd]

Blackballed?

Bobbysamd, did you consider the possibility that someone walked into Skywests HR/CP and told them that they shouldn't hire you?

Happens all the time.

Actually, I hadn't. I applied there starting in September of 1988 and continued through 1994. I met quite a few people in aviation during that time, but none of them except my former student was aware that I applied there, and for so long a period. Of course, you never know whom you'll meet who can wield a knife or dagger.

I don't doubt you, though. But one would think that persistence along with having someone walk in the app for me would overcome a negative comment.

I have other theories about why I was never called at SkyWest. Read some of my other posts.

I appreciate your comments, though.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

PFT is a way to jump forward without experience, training, or the traditional "paying of dues" . . . . .

The amazing part about PFT(and I am not trying to get flamed with this) is a pilot group pays for their job and then demands pay raises. The problem is, through actions, you have told managment that you dont need nor want money . . . . .

(emphasis added)

I like your irony. Rather strange that they are able to fork up the big bucks and then bitch about the low wages. A rather inconsistent position.

Good comment.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Hello,
PFT= is poison for the pilot profession(period).
Networking= Is normal in any industry, infact it may be more important in the aviation industry.
Reason? I currently sit in an A/C for 10-13 hours a day, 4 days a week, all month with the same guy. If you think sitting next to a marginal personality for that length of time is fun, you are taking the right prescription. I am not, and have been lucky to only have had to sit next to one or two of the above mentioned personality types. The interview is a further filtering process after the application and testing. All of the people who get to the interview are being evaluated for many attributes, the logbook totals are only one, knowledge, personality, and ability to communicate with non-flight personel are just a few more. We(line dogs) want qualified, well rounded, pleasant people to sit next to. If your only friend is your dog and he/she even bites you from time to time......
Ola
PBR

 

[ATA1011]

Hey Bobbysamd, maybe if you P-F-T 10 years ago you would have a good flying job today. Then you would be posting about all the cash and time off you have and we wouldn't have to read about all this P-F-T and age CRAP.

 

[bobbysamd]

Suggested readings

Hey Bobbysamd, maybe if you P-F-T 10 years ago you would have a good flying job today. Then you would be posting about all the cash and time off you have and we wouldn't have to read about all this P-F-T and age CRAP.

(emphasis added)

My comments have struck a nerve! If you cannot attack the message's reasoning, attack the message. That always facilitates an intelligent discussion.

I'd bet that you did not P-F-T. So how do you come off telling me that I should have??

I got interviews at non-P-F-T airlines, so someone was either filling a quota by bringing me in or thought I might be qualified. Shortly thereafter, P-F-T bubbled up and became about the only way to get a job. Why should I, or anyone, have to buy their way in if already qualified? That is outrageous. Accordingly, I invite you to read the story of Faust by Goethe for more reasons not to P-F-T.

Go look up the word "fraud" in the dictionary and you will see another reason not to P-F-T. Also look up "crapshoot" while you're at it.

I must need to have my vision checked. I do not recall reading "age discrimination" anywhere in this discussion. Did you see something I did not? In any event, you've obviously read my many age discrimination comments elsewhere. Did another lightbulb come on? Here's another age discrimination comment relative to my others: "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck." Did that make sense? Think about it.

 

[DC8Driver]

Bobby, if you got interviews and didn't get work........Look in the mirror.

This world is survival of the fitest. You want to pft? it's your business. You don't? Then don't!

You have beat this horse to death. I promise you won't change it. The world is the way it is and you must adapt to survive. You made choices in your life....Live with them or change to get where you want to be. Survive. If you can survive doing something you like or love....all the better

I let the Government buy me a type rating. And thank the good lord I did. Having a type got me in the door. My personality got me the job. I interviewed at my current job against 4 others more qualified than me....Way more qualified. I got the job. They didn't. I didn't know anybody there or know anybody who knew anybody who worked there. If I did know someone I would have used any means necessary to get in the door.

Whinning about pft doesn't get you in the door and will never get you in the cockpit.

 

[Timebuilder]

I think if you look back on the old PFT threads, you will find that I, and I think Bobby also, have drawn a distiction between PFT and getting a type rating, either on your own (which I may do, I'm still on the fence) or on the WIA dime. They aren't the same thing. Neither is "whining" about PFT and discussing it with young newcomers to aviation. For many principled people, it is seen as a matter of character, and playing by the rules. It is a popular idea to "win at any cost", but that mindset is a dangerous character flaw. In fact, it's one of the "hazardous attitudes" we are told to watch out for. The antidote is "follow the rules, they are usually right".

If you did well in the interview, good for you. I'm not sure how you were able to measure the other applicants as being "more qualified", but that is a moot point now.

If you are able to do just as well when you are 42, interviewing against several 30 year olds, come back and tell us how there isn't any age discrimination. I'll find that riveting reading, indeed.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T, Age Discrimination, and Whining

Thanks, Timebuilder.

Oh, I looked in the mirror plenty after my airline interviews, and long after. I still do, sometimes. I even called the Chief Pilot at the Orlando Comair base who interviewed me for that airline after I received my rejection letter. I said that I realized that I would not be hired and asked him if there was anything which I could have presented better. He was totally non-committal (Did he think I was going to sue him? No way. Employment discrimination cases are among the hardest cases to prove, and I did not feel that I was discriminated against.). Meanwhile, I had success getting interviews and being hired for senior instructing jobs in the early '90s, when there were far better qualified people than me available after Eastern and Pan Am turned them loose. Mesa hired me at its school even after I was let go from another employer two months before. My peers there were younger than me. Go figure.

Read some of my comments again. I'm talking about my younger peers getting interviews off their resumes at the same places to which I sent resumes and heard nothing. The book was judged strictly by its cover. I was afforded no opportunity at these places to ball up another interview. Once again, go figure.

Moreover, I don't instigate P-F-T discussions save for this one last year about TAB Express and a followup several weeks later when TAB advertised again in Flying. I do respond when others instigate P-F-T discussions. Believe me, sir, I know I cannot change it. I feel most sincerely that P-F-T is bad policy and needs to be addressed. I will continue to address P-F-T as such. As I wrote before, I've never met a P-F-T discussion I didn't like.

We discussed the WIA paying for your type rating on June 26, 2002, during the John Travolta Qantas thread. You observed that I, as a taxpayer, paid for your type. 911 gave your a raw deal; I stated that I was happy that my tax money could help you get back on your feet.

Yes, we all have choices and we all have different motivations. We are also products of our experiences. Best of luck with the rest of yours. I mean it sincerely.

 

[DC8Driver]

Timebuilder, I am 44 years old. When I was furloughed I interviewed at PSA and Colgan. Offered jobs at both. Age discrimination? I don't think so.

How did I know the others were more qualified? First the headhunter told me. Second I talked to them all. Having been involved in the hiring process at an airline and a manager of a training department at an airline, I guess I think I am experienced enough to determine pilot qualifications.

I guess by your reasoning, we shouldn't go to college as someone had to pay for that. Why don't we make employers pay for college? Your putting yourself in front of the people less fortunate. Whats the difference if the government pays for some training or Mommy and Daddy? There is no difference where the money comes from. You don't think working for starvation wages is a kind of pay for training? Lets take it a step further, why not have the company pay for your private and instrument?

We all draw our own lines in the sand. Don't whine about someone who has the means to make himself better qualified to get the job they want. It's called investing in your future.

I am at a loss. At your tender age, how can you determine that I have a "charater flaw"? Because I disagreed with Bobby? When I said "any means necessary" the context was in getting the interview i.e. calling someone for an introduction/recommendation etc. That's not in your rulebook? I guess it's the same rulebook that sez WIA is OK but Daddy and his banker are not. What if a guy borrows the money? Does that make it OK? Or becuse he has credit and someone else doesn't that's against the rules?

These rules are so confusing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who's rules are you talking about? Yours and the people you agree with? Where are these rules written? Get a grip. When I was your age, I viewed the world rather narrowly also. Experience might change your view of things. I used to think I was morally superior also. I don't remember reading anything in the bible about pay for training. I have read many of your posts and find you usually very level headed. This time you jump to some pretty big conclusions.

To the young people just starting in the industry, get where you want to be as fast as you can becuse Bobby and timebuilder are not gunna feed you or your family.
If Mommy will spring for some training....GO FOR IT!

Bobby, all I can tell you is when I was going through a stack of resumes, I would look for any reason to round file it. When you have a thousand resumes for a class of twelve, you look to widdle down the pile anyway you can. It may be a mispelled word or not long enough time at each previous employer etc. etc. You might have a better way of doing it, until your asked to actually do it because no one else wants the job...........

Honestly, I would rather hire someone in their 40's than in their 20's. Is that age discrimination? I guess it is, but in my experience I have found that people in their 40's are more mature.....Guess that's life experience.

P.S. I thank you for your best wishes and I wish you only the best. And I mean that sincerely. We just have a difference of opinion on PFT.

 

[bobbysamd]

Judging the book by its cover, continued

Originally posted by DC8Driver
Bobby, all I can tell you is when I was going through a stack of resumes, I would look for any reason to round file it. When you have a thousand resumes for a class of twelve, you look to widdle down the pile anyway you can. It may be a mispelled word or not long enough at each previous employer etc. etc.

That's what makes getting a chance hard. Not to criticize you personally, but H.R. savants no longer try to qualify applicants ("Hey, this person looks interesting.") but disqualify them. It's certainly easier to determine what's wrong with an applicant than to determine what's right. Disqualifying someone is easily the path of least resistance.

What about persistent applicants? Every aviation career counselor I've read has stated that persistence has its rewards. Or does H.R. determine from one resume who will be forever blacklisted with persistence going "unrewarded"? Yeah, I know that sounds extreme and it probably is, but, nevertheless, I wonder . . . . . .

I submit that age has been and is used as a disqualifier. My Riddle peers and I had essentially the same quals; I certainly had more time and experience. They had their degrees from Riddle; I had a four-year degree from another college. Everyone says it matters more that you have the degree and not necessarily from where. So that issue is a wash.

Honestly, I would rather hire someone in their 40's than in their 20's. Is that age discrimination? I guess it is, but in my experience I have found that people in their 40's are more mature . . .

I appreciate that. My theory about age discrimination is the narrow minds who tend to populate H.R. have only one view of their ideal candidate. They apparently do not understand why one would change careers. Or they feel that those who do are dilettantes; their rationale being that if one had really loved flying that he/she would have started out as a young person. During my time, career changers were rare. Career changing is more accepted now.

Another theory turns on economics. Regionals heretofore have not expected their pilots to stay. Pilots who stay will top out at scale and will eventually vest in their retirement programs. That would be expensive. Older pilots are more likely to stay than younger pilots. That very well might change as regional airlines take over more routes and opportunities at the majors dwindle - which means the regionals better get used to pilots staying. Further, regionals might think that older pilots won't be happy with regional starvation wages. Name a younger regional pilot who is happy with regional starvation wages. The pay issue can be cleared up at the interview, without assumptions made and the older applicant knocked out in favor of the younger person.

We just have a difference of opinion on PFT.

That we do. I appreciate the discussion.

 

[Timebuilder]

How did I know the others were more qualified? First the headhunter told me. Second I talked to them all. Having been involved in the hiring process at an airline and a manager of a training department at an airline, I guess I think I am experienced enough to determine pilot qualifications.

That's a lot of experience, for sure. I was going by the "2500" hours in your profile. I'd expect at least twice that, for your work experience. My bad.

I guess by your reasoning, we shouldn't go to college as someone had to pay for that. Why don't we make employers pay for college? Your putting yourself in front of the people less fortunate. Whats the difference if the government pays for some training or Mommy and Daddy? There is no difference where the money comes from. You don't think working for starvation wages is a kind of pay for training? Lets take it a step further, why not have the company pay for your private and instrument?

We've discussed the what, who, and when of PFT. If you want more info, we have many threads too numerous to reference now. College and PFT are apples and oranges in the best sense.

Don't whine about someone who has the means to make himself better qualified to get the job they want. It's called investing in your future.

As before, there's a difference between "whining" and discussing. I'm engaged in the latter.

I am at a loss. At your tender age, how can you determine that I have a "charater flaw"? Because I disagreed with Bobby? When I said "any means necessary" the context was in getting the interview i.e. calling someone for an introduction/recommendation etc. That's not in your rulebook?

My tender age is seven more than yours, kid.

The character flaw is engaging in PFT, not calling for an introduction. That was my point, not yours. Sorry for the confusion.

These rules are so confusing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know. That's why this comes up for discussion every now and then.

Who's rules are you talking about? Yours and the people you agree with? Where are these rules written? Get a grip. When I was your age, I viewed the world rather narrowly also. Experience might change your view of things. I used to think I was morally superior also. I don't remember reading anything in the bible about pay for training. I have read many of your posts and find you usually very level headed. This time you jump to some pretty big conclusions.

I'm talking about the wisdom of the collection of high time retired pilots that I know, and similar gentlemen throughout the industry. People I respect as high time captains who still love flying. Folks that guided me to avoid PFT like a poison. I can't help that these conclusions seem like a leap to you. My bottom line is this: PFT is essentially a "buy a job" situation, which lowers the profession, and is always wrong.

Nowadays, this is how younger pilots get the idea about PFT, through discussions like this. We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[bobbysamd]

"For Members Only"

I am 44 years old. When I was furloughed I interviewed at PSA and Colgan. Offered jobs at both. Age discrimination? I don't think so.

But, in your case, age discrimination is a non-starter. Review of your profile and some of your posts shows that you have been a member of the "club" for a while. My contentions about age discrimination exisiting in regional hiring turn on non-"members" who want to join.

It is no surprise that with your background you got offers from PSA and Colgan. You knew from your H.R. experience that you were a desirable applicant. What about career changers in in their late 30s-early 40s who've only instructed to build hours to meet regional quals? That's what I'm talking about. The young ones get the chance. The older ones, with like educational quals and aviation experience, battle age discrimination.

I thought I made that clear. I hope I have now.

PS-I agree with Timebuilder about buying a type rating v. you-know-what. I bought a Citation type because I thought it would help me with hiring; that it would prove that I can be typed and am trainable. Based on my experience I suggest to people that the type means little unless you have time on the aircraft.

Type rating purchase is distinguished from you-know-what because the type on your certificate is universally accepted and can be sold to anyone who uses that type aircraft. You-know-what is company-specific, a condition of employment, and cannot be sold elsewhere.

No, I am not fermenting another debate on you-know-what.

 

[DC8Driver]

Bobby, I started my first flying job at 33. I couldn't get a regional job so I took a job teaching ground school with a promise of a line number after two years. Ended up many more years but that is a different story.

Our HR never saw a resume until ops/training told them who to call in. We didn't care where your degree was from and hired many without degrees. Believe me when someone drops off a great big box of resumes and tells you to pick out the best 25 or 30 you become overwhelmed. This in addition to all your other duties that you don't have enough time for. How do you pick 25 out of a thousand? 900 being very well qualified.


Timebuilder, you know those really experienced retired pilots never had to deal with PFT. My first job was for a retired United captain. He couldn't understand why I wanted turbine time so bad. He got hired at United with 251 hours and went on the DC3. He retired on 747. Heck, gettin a job at United was no big deal. Perspective. Maybe your taking advise from people who have a different perspective than what is current reality?

I wager to say I know a hell of alot more high time older airline pilots than you and most will tell you your career is short, airlines go bust, get where you want to be as fast as you can!

Your 51? Man was I fooled. I thought 23- 24. You really need to hurry up. I guess when we assume we make an ass out of you and me Like assuming things about me?


I had the money to do pft at the time and chose not to. To much trust was needed in the companies and I don't trust any company It had nothing to do with your moral rules. If I was running an airline, I would look into PFT to keep costs down. I don't like PFT as a pilot but as a businessman I might love it......Perspective. Looking through different glasses. Try it sometime.

Today if I wanted a flying job with minimal time and ratings.....I would very much consider PFT. That way I am 100 or 200 numbers above you on the list, flying days with weekends off while you are on stand by/ reserve hating life. Of course you will be morally superior to me......LOL

 

[Publishers]

Bobby

Bobby and I have had this out over and over. The fact is that every day in every kind of employment opportunity, individuals get hired for all kinds of reasons -- nepotism, sheer luck of timing, knowing someone, using a job service that has a connection, pft, etc. etc. etc...

People with equal skills or experience are differentiated by eveything from appearance, personality, sex, race, etc. etc.

While I have heard all the arguments against PFT, the fact is that many of those situations, that job would not exist but for PFT. The other basic fact, is that it works for many.