OK, this may get me flamed but after reading the "how you got your job" thread, I have to ask. Don't PFT and the bubba network get you the same results. I mean both seem to get you the interview that you might not have gotten otherwise. I am not saying that either is right or wrong but they often produce the same result. I would think if you could afford a quality PFT program, getting top notch training and got the interview it would be just as good as if you are at or below the company mins and you got the interview because your dad's buddy's brother's cousin's sister walked in your resume and got you preferential treatment over the other people applying. My personal opinion is that everyone should be assessed on their skills and that all of the "hook-up" shortcuts to getting in should be done away with. Having someone on the inside is sort of like affirmative action. Think about it. You are probably going to get the job over someone better qualified just because you know someone. That isn't any different than getting it because you were a quota. I am looking to get into the industry in about 5 years and I would be pissed if someone less qualified than me got the job I was after just because they knew someone on the inside. I would be equally displeased if the guy who paid 30K to be a FO for a year got the job ahead of me. I am sure both instances will happen but my point is in my opinion they are 2 roads to the same destination.
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PFT vs. The Bubba Network
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Timebuilder
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Timebuilder
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I'm sorry. I thought the term "bubba network" was a little off the wall. 
Actually, most people get their jobs in aviation through a personal referral, if not outright nepotism. In many shops, you won't be considered without an LOR. Just like degreees of separation, folks feel that it's better to go with a "known quantity", an applicant who has a personal connection, and a liklihood of sucess based on association and accountability.
For instance, if "dad" carries in a resume for his son at xyz airlines, the boss at xyz knows that dad would be unlikely to risk his rep on a "bad boy", and that "son" will likely get all of the personal help he needs from "dad" in order to help him fit right in. On the other hand, a more (speaking objectively) "qualified" applicant might not be as good a fit, or as loyal to the company in the longer term. The same can apply if the applicant is not related to an employee. In this case, a person who knows the applicant can speak well of him from personal contact, knows he has a talent for flying, and once again provides a method of accountability. This is more effective than most interview screening could hope to achieve.
Now, the PFT monster. We have many threads, and you can run a search. Like RJ's and politics, these can go on for several pages. Personally, I am a proponent of the traditional route, where you learn aviation from the inside as an instructor, building experience as you build time. I find the idea of paying for experince, such as Gulfstream, to be abhorrent. It's one thing to be a wh*re, but another to be a cheap one. In this case, the wh*re is paying the customer! Having 250 hours of purchased KA time doesn't make you ready to be a professional pilot. Those who have taken this route and succeeded did so because they were willing to teach themselves, and eventually got up to speed. Like the kid in second grade, they cut into line instead of awaiting their turn, and po'd everyone who had prepared well and learned from their many experiences over time. People don't forget things like that. If you are a hard nosed loner, then this might be for you. As for me, I took the advice of several experienced aviatiors. Now, when I taxi in at FXE, I'm getting out of a jet at the other end of the airport, with my self respect intact.
It's up to you.
Actually, most people get their jobs in aviation through a personal referral, if not outright nepotism. In many shops, you won't be considered without an LOR. Just like degreees of separation, folks feel that it's better to go with a "known quantity", an applicant who has a personal connection, and a liklihood of sucess based on association and accountability.
For instance, if "dad" carries in a resume for his son at xyz airlines, the boss at xyz knows that dad would be unlikely to risk his rep on a "bad boy", and that "son" will likely get all of the personal help he needs from "dad" in order to help him fit right in. On the other hand, a more (speaking objectively) "qualified" applicant might not be as good a fit, or as loyal to the company in the longer term. The same can apply if the applicant is not related to an employee. In this case, a person who knows the applicant can speak well of him from personal contact, knows he has a talent for flying, and once again provides a method of accountability. This is more effective than most interview screening could hope to achieve.
Now, the PFT monster. We have many threads, and you can run a search. Like RJ's and politics, these can go on for several pages. Personally, I am a proponent of the traditional route, where you learn aviation from the inside as an instructor, building experience as you build time. I find the idea of paying for experince, such as Gulfstream, to be abhorrent. It's one thing to be a wh*re, but another to be a cheap one. In this case, the wh*re is paying the customer! Having 250 hours of purchased KA time doesn't make you ready to be a professional pilot. Those who have taken this route and succeeded did so because they were willing to teach themselves, and eventually got up to speed. Like the kid in second grade, they cut into line instead of awaiting their turn, and po'd everyone who had prepared well and learned from their many experiences over time. People don't forget things like that. If you are a hard nosed loner, then this might be for you. As for me, I took the advice of several experienced aviatiors. Now, when I taxi in at FXE, I'm getting out of a jet at the other end of the airport, with my self respect intact.
It's up to you.
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WrightAvia
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I'm with you on this timebuilder...
but this subject has many sides to it.
I would probably get a 727 type at my own cost to get into FedEx if I could get a position there. Will I? no. Not only that, but fortunately FedEx doesn't play that game. I would have to work hard at obtaining the qualifications, just like anybody else.
As for buying time and PFT at the 135 or commuter/regional level...I say let them eat cake, those people stupid enough to do that should just pony up the cash and pay. When they are sitting right seat at American Eagle, Great Lakes or something like that for 5-6-7-8 years with no PIC time of their own, then maybe the light will come on.
I wonder how many people took the PFT route and made fast track moves in the few years before 9/11 and the economic down turn, only to find themselves stocking shelves at Walmart or shaking salt over french fries, with a PFT mortgage still hanging over their heads? I know of two, personally. I also know of several guys that quit fractional jobs or regional jobs for a class date at the majors, only to find that class date cancelled and to be out on the streets looking for any jobs. I would hate to have had to bought a type or owe a previous employer on some ludicrous training contract (and some of those cannot be broken) and find my self cleaning cars at the AVIS car rental place.
Speaking of breaking training contracts...I know an FBO that would hire you as a CFI and if you needed/wanted CFII or MEI, they would work out a deal that you sign contracts for length of employment and the FBO would PICK UP THE TAB ON THE NEW RATINGS. If you quit the place before your time was up...you paid a pro-rata portion of your "BILL". I think this was a good deal and was really just a way of getting you the ratings you needed to be more marketable as a CFI, without you having to pay out of pocket and getting paid...all at the same time. Not the same as buying a job...but a form of PFT. You paid by signing a commitment to stay.
Another place where attempts at, or having PFT contracts can bite you in the arse...a friend of mine got typed in a citation at a part 91 place and eventually because of that type, got an offer at a well known national carrier. He left the part 91 place as the ink on his type was just drying. THEY were really mad at him, because he refused to sign and agree to a training contract. Well 9/11 hits and he gets furloughed. Guess what...try going back to or getting a reference out of that previous employer!
I see PFT like what they had in the 90's happening all over again and they will get away with it, because people will do it. The kind where you pay flight safety 15,000 bucks and you get trained...then sit in a pool and hope that someone calls you. BRRRRR, hand me a towel.
but this subject has many sides to it.
I would probably get a 727 type at my own cost to get into FedEx if I could get a position there. Will I? no. Not only that, but fortunately FedEx doesn't play that game. I would have to work hard at obtaining the qualifications, just like anybody else.
As for buying time and PFT at the 135 or commuter/regional level...I say let them eat cake, those people stupid enough to do that should just pony up the cash and pay. When they are sitting right seat at American Eagle, Great Lakes or something like that for 5-6-7-8 years with no PIC time of their own, then maybe the light will come on.
I wonder how many people took the PFT route and made fast track moves in the few years before 9/11 and the economic down turn, only to find themselves stocking shelves at Walmart or shaking salt over french fries, with a PFT mortgage still hanging over their heads? I know of two, personally. I also know of several guys that quit fractional jobs or regional jobs for a class date at the majors, only to find that class date cancelled and to be out on the streets looking for any jobs. I would hate to have had to bought a type or owe a previous employer on some ludicrous training contract (and some of those cannot be broken) and find my self cleaning cars at the AVIS car rental place.
Speaking of breaking training contracts...I know an FBO that would hire you as a CFI and if you needed/wanted CFII or MEI, they would work out a deal that you sign contracts for length of employment and the FBO would PICK UP THE TAB ON THE NEW RATINGS. If you quit the place before your time was up...you paid a pro-rata portion of your "BILL". I think this was a good deal and was really just a way of getting you the ratings you needed to be more marketable as a CFI, without you having to pay out of pocket and getting paid...all at the same time. Not the same as buying a job...but a form of PFT. You paid by signing a commitment to stay.
Another place where attempts at, or having PFT contracts can bite you in the arse...a friend of mine got typed in a citation at a part 91 place and eventually because of that type, got an offer at a well known national carrier. He left the part 91 place as the ink on his type was just drying. THEY were really mad at him, because he refused to sign and agree to a training contract. Well 9/11 hits and he gets furloughed. Guess what...try going back to or getting a reference out of that previous employer!
I see PFT like what they had in the 90's happening all over again and they will get away with it, because people will do it. The kind where you pay flight safety 15,000 bucks and you get trained...then sit in a pool and hope that someone calls you. BRRRRR, hand me a towel.
bobbysamd
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I always like a good P-F-T discussion
. . . . but networking certainly seems to be what is done. In a way, that is as unfair as P-F-T because not everyone has opportunities to network. I had five jobs in aviation and I got every one of them by going through the front door. I had colleagues who got the regional jobs I so coveted, but I didn't feel that I was well acquainted enough with them to ask for help. In looking back, maybe I should have.
Sometimes, networking fails. I tried for six years to get on with SkyWest. It would have been a great situation for me. I was getting nowhere. I had a Riddle student who got on at SkyWest. She offered to walk in fresh materials for me. I took her up on it, and to be sure I had not fallen through the cracks I attached another application fee. My check was returned, proving that I was in its system. No interviews or phone calls. My former student didn't understand it. Neither did I. Oh, well . . . . . .
On the other hand, when someone with quals less than the company mins gets an interview you can bet the ranch that the person had some kind of connection. Probably the dad-being-the-Chief-Pilot's-neighbor-connection. That is unfair, but what can you do??? I would have reacted to such a person the same way I would have reacted to someone who had P-F-Td.
I second Timebuilder's cutting-in-line comments because I feel the same way. Having dad get you the interview (and job) is another example of cutting in line.
Duksrule, you would have every right to be pissed if someone less qualified than you gets the job you want. Been there, done that . . . . . . and P-F-T now seems very much like the early '90s.
. . . . but networking certainly seems to be what is done. In a way, that is as unfair as P-F-T because not everyone has opportunities to network. I had five jobs in aviation and I got every one of them by going through the front door. I had colleagues who got the regional jobs I so coveted, but I didn't feel that I was well acquainted enough with them to ask for help. In looking back, maybe I should have.
Sometimes, networking fails. I tried for six years to get on with SkyWest. It would have been a great situation for me. I was getting nowhere. I had a Riddle student who got on at SkyWest. She offered to walk in fresh materials for me. I took her up on it, and to be sure I had not fallen through the cracks I attached another application fee. My check was returned, proving that I was in its system. No interviews or phone calls. My former student didn't understand it. Neither did I. Oh, well . . . . . .
On the other hand, when someone with quals less than the company mins gets an interview you can bet the ranch that the person had some kind of connection. Probably the dad-being-the-Chief-Pilot's-neighbor-connection. That is unfair, but what can you do??? I would have reacted to such a person the same way I would have reacted to someone who had P-F-Td.
I second Timebuilder's cutting-in-line comments because I feel the same way. Having dad get you the interview (and job) is another example of cutting in line.
Duksrule, you would have every right to be pissed if someone less qualified than you gets the job you want. Been there, done that . . . . . . and P-F-T now seems very much like the early '90s.
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Bobby's post is what I was looking for. Please let me be clear that I am not on the side of PFT. I am just wondering how many people feel that the "hook-up" to getting your foot in the door is nearly just as bad. Anyone who takes a short cut in front of others is cutting the line.
For me, I am going to try to get a few ratings while I am still in the Navy and then maybe go to someplace like ATP or one of the other schools that offers a lot of mulit-time with the program.
For me, I am going to try to get a few ratings while I am still in the Navy and then maybe go to someplace like ATP or one of the other schools that offers a lot of mulit-time with the program.
I wish that I knew people at alaska or airtran, or anywere else that it would benifit me. but I don't so I will fly on-demand charter and probably wont ever meet anyone at Alaska Airlines. I do resent, in a way, the people that have been "silver bullited" or whatever it is they do. But I would be perfectly willing to get a job that way. besides, it doesn't work for everyone.
What a bunch of hooey some of this thread is. You are comparing a person who busts their butt meeting new people to someone who opens up daddy's wallet. Puh- LEASE. You people are out of your minds. I volunteer at OSH just about every summer and network like crazy. I am fairly personable and meet many contacts that way. How could that be a bad thing? Wait a second....now I see. People who volunteer to help a non-profit organization are PFTing. Duh, why didn't I see that before. Lift your chins up buckaroos, networking goes on in every profession. It is an essential tool to have in your arsenal.
3
350DRIVER
PFT is a slap in the face of the pilot community and takes many jobs away from people who have "earned" it and have paid their dues but they don't get a shot since "some" go and whore themselves out. Gulf Joke= perfect example..
On the other hand> Obtaining a job because you "knew" someone or that someone helped you get the interview is not wrong or viewed as a negative. Most pilots get their breaks from networking and nothing is wrong with this practice at all. What you have proposed is comparable to saying " night is pretty similiar to day" "apples taste like peanuts" " a 777 is very very similiar to a BE1900" - see any "minor" differences.?? Very very minor but I can see where they are- 0
Just because you got the interview doesn't "give" you a job.
Once at the interview YOU must perform, bottom line...
cheers and looks like "night time" outside- 0
3 5 0
On the other hand> Obtaining a job because you "knew" someone or that someone helped you get the interview is not wrong or viewed as a negative. Most pilots get their breaks from networking and nothing is wrong with this practice at all. What you have proposed is comparable to saying " night is pretty similiar to day" "apples taste like peanuts" " a 777 is very very similiar to a BE1900" - see any "minor" differences.?? Very very minor but I can see where they are- 0
Just because you got the interview doesn't "give" you a job.
Once at the interview YOU must perform, bottom line...
cheers and looks like "night time" outside- 0
3 5 0
LR25
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I think some of you are missing the boat.
I can't stand PFT, but networking, come on.
So if I stay at home and watch TV, the job is going to fall in my lap. I'm here to tell you, I busted by a$$ for a long time trying to get those hours in, renting planes, flying clubs, hanging out at the airport, since I was 15 I was doing that. I was an A&P at 20, working on airplanes for flight time, delivering pizza, fueling airplanes as a lineman, thats right, eat, sleep breath, dream about aviation.
Guess what, I met alot of people, I wasnt afraid to talk to people, get to know them, be freinds with them. And in turn guess what else came with that, alot of contacts. When I started getting close to being viable as a pilot, people either CALLED ME, or I went to them and they did what they could for me.
If that is cheating or unfair, then I need a new dictionary. The way I see it, if you want something bad enough, you do whatever it takes (ethically) and you do it.
A good freind of mine back in the mid 90's or so was an intructor, I had double the time he had, all of a sudeen he is going to go to ASA for 10K, he asked me to come along, I said no, even though I could have barrowed the money, I stayed flying freight part time as an on call FO and worked full-time as an A&P mechanic.
If I would have PFTed, that would have been wrong, but I didnt, it took a few years after that until I really started flying and being able to hold my own.
So if networking got my foot in, then I can hold my head up and say I did it the right way.
I can't stand PFT, but networking, come on.
So if I stay at home and watch TV, the job is going to fall in my lap. I'm here to tell you, I busted by a$$ for a long time trying to get those hours in, renting planes, flying clubs, hanging out at the airport, since I was 15 I was doing that. I was an A&P at 20, working on airplanes for flight time, delivering pizza, fueling airplanes as a lineman, thats right, eat, sleep breath, dream about aviation.
Guess what, I met alot of people, I wasnt afraid to talk to people, get to know them, be freinds with them. And in turn guess what else came with that, alot of contacts. When I started getting close to being viable as a pilot, people either CALLED ME, or I went to them and they did what they could for me.
If that is cheating or unfair, then I need a new dictionary. The way I see it, if you want something bad enough, you do whatever it takes (ethically) and you do it.
A good freind of mine back in the mid 90's or so was an intructor, I had double the time he had, all of a sudeen he is going to go to ASA for 10K, he asked me to come along, I said no, even though I could have barrowed the money, I stayed flying freight part time as an on call FO and worked full-time as an A&P mechanic.
If I would have PFTed, that would have been wrong, but I didnt, it took a few years after that until I really started flying and being able to hold my own.
So if networking got my foot in, then I can hold my head up and say I did it the right way.
Hubie
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Being aggressive and going after your dream cannot be compared to PFT. I agree with LR25 sitting on your couch flying the remote control is not going to find you a job. The fact of the matter is that a lot of jobs in this industry require a lot of footwork and constant persistence, some employers look for that in a potential candidate I know that our DO and CP do.
Corporate is a very hard side of the industry to break into and some employers look for certain people with certain personalities, that requires face time and not just mailing in a flashy resume done up on $60.00 a page resume paper.
Our Chief Pilot enjoys talking to and takes time for people who just walk up to him while we are on the road. I’ve even seen him take resumes, buy cups of coffee and sit and talk to pilots who presented themselves while we were on a trip.
I don’t agree with PFT, the type that most associate with the usual airline scam that was so prevalent with the commuters and a few others in recent past. But if you don’t have an ATP and a company requires it just to apply, is buying that rating considered PFT, I think some on this board believe so…
If a type rating in the latest Gorilla Industries Whiz bang Model 1000 is required to apply, is buying that one PTF too… what about the 737 type that Southwest required?
I wonder if some here have an over inflated sense of entitlement when it comes to where exactly a pilot should cease to pay for his/her training.
Networking is fair game and a lot of professions, not just aviation require it.
Corporate is a very hard side of the industry to break into and some employers look for certain people with certain personalities, that requires face time and not just mailing in a flashy resume done up on $60.00 a page resume paper.
Our Chief Pilot enjoys talking to and takes time for people who just walk up to him while we are on the road. I’ve even seen him take resumes, buy cups of coffee and sit and talk to pilots who presented themselves while we were on a trip.
I don’t agree with PFT, the type that most associate with the usual airline scam that was so prevalent with the commuters and a few others in recent past. But if you don’t have an ATP and a company requires it just to apply, is buying that rating considered PFT, I think some on this board believe so…
If a type rating in the latest Gorilla Industries Whiz bang Model 1000 is required to apply, is buying that one PTF too… what about the 737 type that Southwest required?
I wonder if some here have an over inflated sense of entitlement when it comes to where exactly a pilot should cease to pay for his/her training.
Networking is fair game and a lot of professions, not just aviation require it.
bobbysamd
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More on having contacts . . . .
To clarify something I wrote above, I am not dissing networking or having contacts. Both are important. Just don't depend on contacts to be your salvation. Don't count on their promises or their effectiveness, or lack thereof.
I like to relate how I had known this pilot who flew a King Air for an oil company. I had known him for years and had rented his 152. After I decided to pursue a flying career I went to him and asked if I could go with him in the King Air (it was a King Air 90, so I could have logged the time legally). I helped him many an afternoon wash and wax the airplane. I went with him a grand total of less than 1.0. Perhaps I was not always available, though I had good availability; in any event he could have kept me in mind. He apologized later for not giving me more time. I don't hold it against the man, but I'm giving this just as an example.
I had a similar experience after graduating from paralegal school. My school had an announcement on the board that a major lawfirm in town was looking for an entry-level paralegal. As it turned out, my father, of blessed memory, knew someone who knew a partner in this lawfirm. This contact spoke with the partner, and the partner gave assurances that I would get an interview. I heard the phone conversation on speakerphone. Did I get the interview? Noooooooo . . . . . Either this partner spaced it or the H.R. person resented someone going over her head.
Most certainly an LOR from someone in your target company(ies) is a "contact." Everyone needs such contacts. But the best they might do is move your resume to the top of the stack. Unless an H.R. conehead is told to bring you in for an interview, don't count on the conehead exhibiting intelligence sufficient to recognize you as being a desirable applicant.
Contacts and networking are important. Both can fill you in on job openings, and perhaps help get you an interview. Bottom line is you must do your own legwork to get your chance.
I still would resent it if someone less qualified than me got a job I wanted because that person had an inside contact and/or did you-know-what.
To clarify something I wrote above, I am not dissing networking or having contacts. Both are important. Just don't depend on contacts to be your salvation. Don't count on their promises or their effectiveness, or lack thereof.
I like to relate how I had known this pilot who flew a King Air for an oil company. I had known him for years and had rented his 152. After I decided to pursue a flying career I went to him and asked if I could go with him in the King Air (it was a King Air 90, so I could have logged the time legally). I helped him many an afternoon wash and wax the airplane. I went with him a grand total of less than 1.0. Perhaps I was not always available, though I had good availability; in any event he could have kept me in mind. He apologized later for not giving me more time. I don't hold it against the man, but I'm giving this just as an example.
I had a similar experience after graduating from paralegal school. My school had an announcement on the board that a major lawfirm in town was looking for an entry-level paralegal. As it turned out, my father, of blessed memory, knew someone who knew a partner in this lawfirm. This contact spoke with the partner, and the partner gave assurances that I would get an interview. I heard the phone conversation on speakerphone. Did I get the interview? Noooooooo . . . . . Either this partner spaced it or the H.R. person resented someone going over her head.
Most certainly an LOR from someone in your target company(ies) is a "contact." Everyone needs such contacts. But the best they might do is move your resume to the top of the stack. Unless an H.R. conehead is told to bring you in for an interview, don't count on the conehead exhibiting intelligence sufficient to recognize you as being a desirable applicant.
Contacts and networking are important. Both can fill you in on job openings, and perhaps help get you an interview. Bottom line is you must do your own legwork to get your chance.
I still would resent it if someone less qualified than me got a job I wanted because that person had an inside contact and/or did you-know-what.
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I believe that it goes without saying that an inside track is key in todays hiring market. My company virtually never hires from the street without a reference from a line pilot. If that makes it the "bubba" network, so be it. This concept is utterly divergent from PFT. Networking takes time, and while that time elapses, traditionally, a pilot is building experience. PFT is a way to jump forward without experience, training, or the traditional "paying of dues".
The amazing part about PFT(and I am not trying to get flamed with this) is a pilot group pays for their job and then demands pay raises. The problem is, through actions, you have told managment that you dont need nor want money. A cost of doing business for any compnay which flies is pilot training. If you wish to devalue yourself to management by accepting to pay what is rightfully their expnse, go ahead, just dont start complaining afterwards. I guess that was a bit of a rant, sorry. I just dotn believe that a individual who gets out, networks and makes something of him or herself is even remotely comparable to a PFT'r.
The amazing part about PFT(and I am not trying to get flamed with this) is a pilot group pays for their job and then demands pay raises. The problem is, through actions, you have told managment that you dont need nor want money. A cost of doing business for any compnay which flies is pilot training. If you wish to devalue yourself to management by accepting to pay what is rightfully their expnse, go ahead, just dont start complaining afterwards. I guess that was a bit of a rant, sorry. I just dotn believe that a individual who gets out, networks and makes something of him or herself is even remotely comparable to a PFT'r.
LR25
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Buying a type, I have heard this one in the past also.
One question about that to you. If you want to work for SW, and you get a type to get the job, is that PFT?
Well, if SW was the only place in the world that flew 737's, maybe so. But if you didnt get the job for some reason at SW but you got another job somewhere else flying 73's, is that still PFT?
Does that mean getting an ATP is PFT, every airline to fly Capt. requires it!!!!! It just dont hold up the argument.
Its simple, you borrow money from Mama/bank to go get a job to fly, thats PFT.
One question about that to you. If you want to work for SW, and you get a type to get the job, is that PFT?
Well, if SW was the only place in the world that flew 737's, maybe so. But if you didnt get the job for some reason at SW but you got another job somewhere else flying 73's, is that still PFT?
Does that mean getting an ATP is PFT, every airline to fly Capt. requires it!!!!! It just dont hold up the argument.
Its simple, you borrow money from Mama/bank to go get a job to fly, thats PFT.
bobbysamd
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Blackballed?
I don't doubt you, though. But one would think that persistence along with having someone walk in the app for me would overcome a negative comment.
I have other theories about why I was never called at SkyWest. Read some of my other posts.
I appreciate your comments, though.
Actually, I hadn't. I applied there starting in September of 1988 and continued through 1994. I met quite a few people in aviation during that time, but none of them except my former student was aware that I applied there, and for so long a period. Of course, you never know whom you'll meet who can wield a knife or dagger.DC8Driver said:
I don't doubt you, though. But one would think that persistence along with having someone walk in the app for me would overcome a negative comment.
I have other theories about why I was never called at SkyWest. Read some of my other posts.
I appreciate your comments, though.
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PBRstreetgang
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Hello,
PFT= is poison for the pilot profession(period).
Networking= Is normal in any industry, infact it may be more important in the aviation industry.
Reason? I currently sit in an A/C for 10-13 hours a day, 4 days a week, all month with the same guy. If you think sitting next to a marginal personality for that length of time is fun, you are taking the right prescription. I am not, and have been lucky to only have had to sit next to one or two of the above mentioned personality types. The interview is a further filtering process after the application and testing. All of the people who get to the interview are being evaluated for many attributes, the logbook totals are only one, knowledge, personality, and ability to communicate with non-flight personel are just a few more. We(line dogs) want qualified, well rounded, pleasant people to sit next to. If your only friend is your dog and he/she even bites you from time to time......
Ola
PBR
PFT= is poison for the pilot profession(period).
Networking= Is normal in any industry, infact it may be more important in the aviation industry.
Reason? I currently sit in an A/C for 10-13 hours a day, 4 days a week, all month with the same guy. If you think sitting next to a marginal personality for that length of time is fun, you are taking the right prescription. I am not, and have been lucky to only have had to sit next to one or two of the above mentioned personality types. The interview is a further filtering process after the application and testing. All of the people who get to the interview are being evaluated for many attributes, the logbook totals are only one, knowledge, personality, and ability to communicate with non-flight personel are just a few more. We(line dogs) want qualified, well rounded, pleasant people to sit next to. If your only friend is your dog and he/she even bites you from time to time......
Ola
PBR
bobbysamd
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Suggested readings
My comments have struck a nerve! If you cannot attack the message's reasoning, attack the message. That always facilitates an intelligent discussion.
I'd bet that you did not P-F-T. So how do you come off telling me that I should have??
I got interviews at non-P-F-T airlines, so someone was either filling a quota by bringing me in or thought I might be qualified. Shortly thereafter, P-F-T bubbled up and became about the only way to get a job. Why should I, or anyone, have to buy their way in if already qualified? That is outrageous. Accordingly, I invite you to read the story of Faust by Goethe for more reasons not to P-F-T.
Go look up the word "fraud" in the dictionary and you will see another reason not to P-F-T. Also look up "crapshoot" while you're at it.
I must need to have my vision checked. I do not recall reading "age discrimination" anywhere in this discussion. Did you see something I did not? In any event, you've obviously read my many age discrimination comments elsewhere. Did another lightbulb come on? Here's another age discrimination comment relative to my others: "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck." Did that make sense? Think about it.
(emphasis added)ATA1011 said:Hey Bobbysamd, maybe if you P-F-T 10 years ago you would have a good flying job today. Then you would be posting about all the cash and time off you have and we wouldn't have to read about all this P-F-T and age CRAP.
My comments have struck a nerve! If you cannot attack the message's reasoning, attack the message. That always facilitates an intelligent discussion.
I'd bet that you did not P-F-T. So how do you come off telling me that I should have??
I got interviews at non-P-F-T airlines, so someone was either filling a quota by bringing me in or thought I might be qualified. Shortly thereafter, P-F-T bubbled up and became about the only way to get a job. Why should I, or anyone, have to buy their way in if already qualified? That is outrageous. Accordingly, I invite you to read the story of Faust by Goethe for more reasons not to P-F-T.
Go look up the word "fraud" in the dictionary and you will see another reason not to P-F-T. Also look up "crapshoot" while you're at it.
I must need to have my vision checked. I do not recall reading "age discrimination" anywhere in this discussion. Did you see something I did not? In any event, you've obviously read my many age discrimination comments elsewhere. Did another lightbulb come on? Here's another age discrimination comment relative to my others: "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck." Did that make sense? Think about it.
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Bobby, if you got interviews and didn't get work........Look in the mirror.
This world is survival of the fitest. You want to pft? it's your business. You don't? Then don't!
You have beat this horse to death. I promise you won't change it. The world is the way it is and you must adapt to survive. You made choices in your life....Live with them or change to get where you want to be. Survive. If you can survive doing something you like or love....all the better
I let the Government buy me a type rating. And thank the good lord I did. Having a type got me in the door. My personality got me the job. I interviewed at my current job against 4 others more qualified than me....Way more qualified. I got the job. They didn't. I didn't know anybody there or know anybody who knew anybody who worked there. If I did know someone I would have used any means necessary to get in the door.
Whinning about pft doesn't get you in the door and will never get you in the cockpit.
This world is survival of the fitest. You want to pft? it's your business. You don't? Then don't!
You have beat this horse to death. I promise you won't change it. The world is the way it is and you must adapt to survive. You made choices in your life....Live with them or change to get where you want to be. Survive. If you can survive doing something you like or love....all the better
I let the Government buy me a type rating. And thank the good lord I did. Having a type got me in the door. My personality got me the job. I interviewed at my current job against 4 others more qualified than me....Way more qualified. I got the job. They didn't. I didn't know anybody there or know anybody who knew anybody who worked there. If I did know someone I would have used any means necessary to get in the door.
Whinning about pft doesn't get you in the door and will never get you in the cockpit.
Timebuilder
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I think if you look back on the old PFT threads, you will find that I, and I think Bobby also, have drawn a distiction between PFT and getting a type rating, either on your own (which I may do, I'm still on the fence) or on the WIA dime. They aren't the same thing. Neither is "whining" about PFT and discussing it with young newcomers to aviation. For many principled people, it is seen as a matter of character, and playing by the rules. It is a popular idea to "win at any cost", but that mindset is a dangerous character flaw. In fact, it's one of the "hazardous attitudes" we are told to watch out for. The antidote is "follow the rules, they are usually right".
If you did well in the interview, good for you. I'm not sure how you were able to measure the other applicants as being "more qualified", but that is a moot point now.
If you are able to do just as well when you are 42, interviewing against several 30 year olds, come back and tell us how there isn't any age discrimination. I'll find that riveting reading, indeed.
If you did well in the interview, good for you. I'm not sure how you were able to measure the other applicants as being "more qualified", but that is a moot point now.
If you are able to do just as well when you are 42, interviewing against several 30 year olds, come back and tell us how there isn't any age discrimination. I'll find that riveting reading, indeed.
bobbysamd
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P-F-T, Age Discrimination, and Whining
Thanks, Timebuilder.
Oh, I looked in the mirror plenty after my airline interviews, and long after. I still do, sometimes. I even called the Chief Pilot at the Orlando Comair base who interviewed me for that airline after I received my rejection letter. I said that I realized that I would not be hired and asked him if there was anything which I could have presented better. He was totally non-committal (Did he think I was going to sue him? No way. Employment discrimination cases are among the hardest cases to prove, and I did not feel that I was discriminated against.). Meanwhile, I had success getting interviews and being hired for senior instructing jobs in the early '90s, when there were far better qualified people than me available after Eastern and Pan Am turned them loose. Mesa hired me at its school even after I was let go from another employer two months before. My peers there were younger than me. Go figure.
Read some of my comments again. I'm talking about my younger peers getting interviews off their resumes at the same places to which I sent resumes and heard nothing. The book was judged strictly by its cover. I was afforded no opportunity at these places to ball up another interview. Once again, go figure.
Moreover, I don't instigate P-F-T discussions save for this one last year about TAB Express and a followup several weeks later when TAB advertised again in Flying. I do respond when others instigate P-F-T discussions. Believe me, sir, I know I cannot change it. I feel most sincerely that P-F-T is bad policy and needs to be addressed. I will continue to address P-F-T as such. As I wrote before, I've never met a P-F-T discussion I didn't like.
We discussed the WIA paying for your type rating on June 26, 2002, during the John Travolta Qantas thread. You observed that I, as a taxpayer, paid for your type. 911 gave your a raw deal; I stated that I was happy that my tax money could help you get back on your feet.
Yes, we all have choices and we all have different motivations. We are also products of our experiences. Best of luck with the rest of yours. I mean it sincerely.
Thanks, Timebuilder.
Oh, I looked in the mirror plenty after my airline interviews, and long after. I still do, sometimes. I even called the Chief Pilot at the Orlando Comair base who interviewed me for that airline after I received my rejection letter. I said that I realized that I would not be hired and asked him if there was anything which I could have presented better. He was totally non-committal (Did he think I was going to sue him? No way. Employment discrimination cases are among the hardest cases to prove, and I did not feel that I was discriminated against.). Meanwhile, I had success getting interviews and being hired for senior instructing jobs in the early '90s, when there were far better qualified people than me available after Eastern and Pan Am turned them loose. Mesa hired me at its school even after I was let go from another employer two months before. My peers there were younger than me. Go figure.
Read some of my comments again. I'm talking about my younger peers getting interviews off their resumes at the same places to which I sent resumes and heard nothing. The book was judged strictly by its cover. I was afforded no opportunity at these places to ball up another interview. Once again, go figure.
Moreover, I don't instigate P-F-T discussions save for this one last year about TAB Express and a followup several weeks later when TAB advertised again in Flying. I do respond when others instigate P-F-T discussions. Believe me, sir, I know I cannot change it. I feel most sincerely that P-F-T is bad policy and needs to be addressed. I will continue to address P-F-T as such. As I wrote before, I've never met a P-F-T discussion I didn't like.
We discussed the WIA paying for your type rating on June 26, 2002, during the John Travolta Qantas thread. You observed that I, as a taxpayer, paid for your type. 911 gave your a raw deal; I stated that I was happy that my tax money could help you get back on your feet.
Yes, we all have choices and we all have different motivations. We are also products of our experiences. Best of luck with the rest of yours. I mean it sincerely.
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Timebuilder, I am 44 years old. When I was furloughed I interviewed at PSA and Colgan. Offered jobs at both. Age discrimination? I don't think so.
How did I know the others were more qualified? First the headhunter told me. Second I talked to them all. Having been involved in the hiring process at an airline and a manager of a training department at an airline, I guess I think I am experienced enough to determine pilot qualifications.
I guess by your reasoning, we shouldn't go to college as someone had to pay for that. Why don't we make employers pay for college? Your putting yourself in front of the people less fortunate. Whats the difference if the government pays for some training or Mommy and Daddy? There is no difference where the money comes from. You don't think working for starvation wages is a kind of pay for training? Lets take it a step further, why not have the company pay for your private and instrument?
We all draw our own lines in the sand. Don't whine about someone who has the means to make himself better qualified to get the job they want. It's called investing in your future.
I am at a loss. At your tender age, how can you determine that I have a "charater flaw"? Because I disagreed with Bobby? When I said "any means necessary" the context was in getting the interview i.e. calling someone for an introduction/recommendation etc. That's not in your rulebook? I guess it's the same rulebook that sez WIA is OK but Daddy and his banker are not. What if a guy borrows the money? Does that make it OK? Or becuse he has credit and someone else doesn't that's against the rules?
These rules are so confusing!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who's rules are you talking about? Yours and the people you agree with? Where are these rules written? Get a grip. When I was your age, I viewed the world rather narrowly also. Experience might change your view of things. I used to think I was morally superior also. I don't remember reading anything in the bible about pay for training. I have read many of your posts and find you usually very level headed. This time you jump to some pretty big conclusions.
To the young people just starting in the industry, get where you want to be as fast as you can becuse Bobby and timebuilder are not gunna feed you or your family.
If Mommy will spring for some training....GO FOR IT!
Bobby, all I can tell you is when I was going through a stack of resumes, I would look for any reason to round file it. When you have a thousand resumes for a class of twelve, you look to widdle down the pile anyway you can. It may be a mispelled word or not long enough time at each previous employer etc. etc. You might have a better way of doing it, until your asked to actually do it because no one else wants the job...........
Honestly, I would rather hire someone in their 40's than in their 20's. Is that age discrimination? I guess it is, but in my experience I have found that people in their 40's are more mature.....Guess that's life experience.
P.S. I thank you for your best wishes and I wish you only the best. And I mean that sincerely. We just have a difference of opinion on PFT.
How did I know the others were more qualified? First the headhunter told me. Second I talked to them all. Having been involved in the hiring process at an airline and a manager of a training department at an airline, I guess I think I am experienced enough to determine pilot qualifications.
I guess by your reasoning, we shouldn't go to college as someone had to pay for that. Why don't we make employers pay for college? Your putting yourself in front of the people less fortunate. Whats the difference if the government pays for some training or Mommy and Daddy? There is no difference where the money comes from. You don't think working for starvation wages is a kind of pay for training? Lets take it a step further, why not have the company pay for your private and instrument?
We all draw our own lines in the sand. Don't whine about someone who has the means to make himself better qualified to get the job they want. It's called investing in your future.
I am at a loss. At your tender age, how can you determine that I have a "charater flaw"? Because I disagreed with Bobby? When I said "any means necessary" the context was in getting the interview i.e. calling someone for an introduction/recommendation etc. That's not in your rulebook? I guess it's the same rulebook that sez WIA is OK but Daddy and his banker are not. What if a guy borrows the money? Does that make it OK? Or becuse he has credit and someone else doesn't that's against the rules?
These rules are so confusing!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who's rules are you talking about? Yours and the people you agree with? Where are these rules written? Get a grip. When I was your age, I viewed the world rather narrowly also. Experience might change your view of things. I used to think I was morally superior also. I don't remember reading anything in the bible about pay for training. I have read many of your posts and find you usually very level headed. This time you jump to some pretty big conclusions.
To the young people just starting in the industry, get where you want to be as fast as you can becuse Bobby and timebuilder are not gunna feed you or your family.
If Mommy will spring for some training....GO FOR IT!
Bobby, all I can tell you is when I was going through a stack of resumes, I would look for any reason to round file it. When you have a thousand resumes for a class of twelve, you look to widdle down the pile anyway you can. It may be a mispelled word or not long enough time at each previous employer etc. etc. You might have a better way of doing it, until your asked to actually do it because no one else wants the job...........
Honestly, I would rather hire someone in their 40's than in their 20's. Is that age discrimination? I guess it is, but in my experience I have found that people in their 40's are more mature.....Guess that's life experience.
P.S. I thank you for your best wishes and I wish you only the best. And I mean that sincerely. We just have a difference of opinion on PFT.
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bobbysamd
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Judging the book by its cover, continued
What about persistent applicants? Every aviation career counselor I've read has stated that persistence has its rewards. Or does H.R. determine from one resume who will be forever blacklisted with persistence going "unrewarded"? Yeah, I know that sounds extreme and it probably is, but, nevertheless, I wonder . . . . . .
I submit that age has been and is used as a disqualifier. My Riddle peers and I had essentially the same quals; I certainly had more time and experience. They had their degrees from Riddle; I had a four-year degree from another college. Everyone says it matters more that you have the degree and not necessarily from where. So that issue is a wash.
Another theory turns on economics. Regionals heretofore have not expected their pilots to stay. Pilots who stay will top out at scale and will eventually vest in their retirement programs. That would be expensive. Older pilots are more likely to stay than younger pilots. That very well might change as regional airlines take over more routes and opportunities at the majors dwindle - which means the regionals better get used to pilots staying. Further, regionals might think that older pilots won't be happy with regional starvation wages. Name a younger regional pilot who is happy with regional starvation wages. The pay issue can be cleared up at the interview, without assumptions made and the older applicant knocked out in favor of the younger person.
That's what makes getting a chance hard. Not to criticize you personally, but H.R. savants no longer try to qualify applicants ("Hey, this person looks interesting.") but disqualify them. It's certainly easier to determine what's wrong with an applicant than to determine what's right. Disqualifying someone is easily the path of least resistance.
What about persistent applicants? Every aviation career counselor I've read has stated that persistence has its rewards. Or does H.R. determine from one resume who will be forever blacklisted with persistence going "unrewarded"? Yeah, I know that sounds extreme and it probably is, but, nevertheless, I wonder . . . . . .
I submit that age has been and is used as a disqualifier. My Riddle peers and I had essentially the same quals; I certainly had more time and experience. They had their degrees from Riddle; I had a four-year degree from another college. Everyone says it matters more that you have the degree and not necessarily from where. So that issue is a wash.
I appreciate that. My theory about age discrimination is the narrow minds who tend to populate H.R. have only one view of their ideal candidate. They apparently do not understand why one would change careers. Or they feel that those who do are dilettantes; their rationale being that if one had really loved flying that he/she would have started out as a young person. During my time, career changers were rare. Career changing is more accepted now.
Another theory turns on economics. Regionals heretofore have not expected their pilots to stay. Pilots who stay will top out at scale and will eventually vest in their retirement programs. That would be expensive. Older pilots are more likely to stay than younger pilots. That very well might change as regional airlines take over more routes and opportunities at the majors dwindle - which means the regionals better get used to pilots staying. Further, regionals might think that older pilots won't be happy with regional starvation wages. Name a younger regional pilot who is happy with regional starvation wages. The pay issue can be cleared up at the interview, without assumptions made and the older applicant knocked out in favor of the younger person.
That we do. I appreciate the discussion.
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Timebuilder
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That's a lot of experience, for sure. I was going by the "2500" hours in your profile. I'd expect at least twice that, for your work experience. My bad.
We've discussed the what, who, and when of PFT. If you want more info, we have many threads too numerous to reference now. College and PFT are apples and oranges in the best sense.
As before, there's a difference between "whining" and discussing. I'm engaged in the latter.
My tender age is seven more than yours, kid.
The character flaw is engaging in PFT, not calling for an introduction. That was my point, not yours. Sorry for the confusion.
I know. That's why this comes up for discussion every now and then.
I'm talking about the wisdom of the collection of high time retired pilots that I know, and similar gentlemen throughout the industry. People I respect as high time captains who still love flying. Folks that guided me to avoid PFT like a poison. I can't help that these conclusions seem like a leap to you. My bottom line is this: PFT is essentially a "buy a job" situation, which lowers the profession, and is always wrong.
Nowadays, this is how younger pilots get the idea about PFT, through discussions like this. We will just have to agree to disagree.
bobbysamd
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"For Members Only"
It is no surprise that with your background you got offers from PSA and Colgan. You knew from your H.R. experience that you were a desirable applicant. What about career changers in in their late 30s-early 40s who've only instructed to build hours to meet regional quals? That's what I'm talking about. The young ones get the chance. The older ones, with like educational quals and aviation experience, battle age discrimination.
I thought I made that clear. I hope I have now.
PS-I agree with Timebuilder about buying a type rating v. you-know-what. I bought a Citation type because I thought it would help me with hiring; that it would prove that I can be typed and am trainable. Based on my experience I suggest to people that the type means little unless you have time on the aircraft.
Type rating purchase is distinguished from you-know-what because the type on your certificate is universally accepted and can be sold to anyone who uses that type aircraft. You-know-what is company-specific, a condition of employment, and cannot be sold elsewhere.
No, I am not fermenting another debate on you-know-what.
But, in your case, age discrimination is a non-starter. Review of your profile and some of your posts shows that you have been a member of the "club" for a while. My contentions about age discrimination exisiting in regional hiring turn on non-"members" who want to join.DC8Driver said:
It is no surprise that with your background you got offers from PSA and Colgan. You knew from your H.R. experience that you were a desirable applicant. What about career changers in in their late 30s-early 40s who've only instructed to build hours to meet regional quals? That's what I'm talking about. The young ones get the chance. The older ones, with like educational quals and aviation experience, battle age discrimination.
I thought I made that clear. I hope I have now.
PS-I agree with Timebuilder about buying a type rating v. you-know-what. I bought a Citation type because I thought it would help me with hiring; that it would prove that I can be typed and am trainable. Based on my experience I suggest to people that the type means little unless you have time on the aircraft.
Type rating purchase is distinguished from you-know-what because the type on your certificate is universally accepted and can be sold to anyone who uses that type aircraft. You-know-what is company-specific, a condition of employment, and cannot be sold elsewhere.
No, I am not fermenting another debate on you-know-what.
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Bobby, I started my first flying job at 33. I couldn't get a regional job so I took a job teaching ground school with a promise of a line number after two years. Ended up many more years but that is a different story.
Our HR never saw a resume until ops/training told them who to call in. We didn't care where your degree was from and hired many without degrees. Believe me when someone drops off a great big box of resumes and tells you to pick out the best 25 or 30 you become overwhelmed. This in addition to all your other duties that you don't have enough time for. How do you pick 25 out of a thousand? 900 being very well qualified.
Timebuilder, you know those really experienced retired pilots never had to deal with PFT. My first job was for a retired United captain. He couldn't understand why I wanted turbine time so bad. He got hired at United with 251 hours and went on the DC3. He retired on 747. Heck, gettin a job at United was no big deal. Perspective. Maybe your taking advise from people who have a different perspective than what is current reality?
I wager to say I know a hell of alot more high time older airline pilots than you and most will tell you your career is short, airlines go bust, get where you want to be as fast as you can!
Your 51? Man was I fooled. I thought 23- 24. You really need to hurry up. I guess when we assume we make an ass out of you and me Like assuming things about me?
I had the money to do pft at the time and chose not to. To much trust was needed in the companies and I don't trust any company It had nothing to do with your moral rules. If I was running an airline, I would look into PFT to keep costs down. I don't like PFT as a pilot but as a businessman I might love it......Perspective. Looking through different glasses. Try it sometime.
Today if I wanted a flying job with minimal time and ratings.....I would very much consider PFT. That way I am 100 or 200 numbers above you on the list, flying days with weekends off while you are on stand by/ reserve hating life. Of course you will be morally superior to me......LOL
Our HR never saw a resume until ops/training told them who to call in. We didn't care where your degree was from and hired many without degrees. Believe me when someone drops off a great big box of resumes and tells you to pick out the best 25 or 30 you become overwhelmed. This in addition to all your other duties that you don't have enough time for. How do you pick 25 out of a thousand? 900 being very well qualified.
Timebuilder, you know those really experienced retired pilots never had to deal with PFT. My first job was for a retired United captain. He couldn't understand why I wanted turbine time so bad. He got hired at United with 251 hours and went on the DC3. He retired on 747. Heck, gettin a job at United was no big deal. Perspective. Maybe your taking advise from people who have a different perspective than what is current reality?
I wager to say I know a hell of alot more high time older airline pilots than you and most will tell you your career is short, airlines go bust, get where you want to be as fast as you can!
Your 51? Man was I fooled. I thought 23- 24. You really need to hurry up. I guess when we assume we make an ass out of you and me
Like assuming things about me?I had the money to do pft at the time and chose not to. To much trust was needed in the companies and I don't trust any company
It had nothing to do with your moral rules. If I was running an airline, I would look into PFT to keep costs down. I don't like PFT as a pilot but as a businessman I might love it......Perspective. Looking through different glasses. Try it sometime.Today if I wanted a flying job with minimal time and ratings.....I would very much consider PFT. That way I am 100 or 200 numbers above you on the list, flying days with weekends off while you are on stand by/ reserve hating life. Of course you will be morally superior to me......LOL
Publishers
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Bobby
Bobby and I have had this out over and over. The fact is that every day in every kind of employment opportunity, individuals get hired for all kinds of reasons -- nepotism, sheer luck of timing, knowing someone, using a job service that has a connection, pft, etc. etc. etc...
People with equal skills or experience are differentiated by eveything from appearance, personality, sex, race, etc. etc.
While I have heard all the arguments against PFT, the fact is that many of those situations, that job would not exist but for PFT. The other basic fact, is that it works for many.
Bobby and I have had this out over and over. The fact is that every day in every kind of employment opportunity, individuals get hired for all kinds of reasons -- nepotism, sheer luck of timing, knowing someone, using a job service that has a connection, pft, etc. etc. etc...
People with equal skills or experience are differentiated by eveything from appearance, personality, sex, race, etc. etc.
While I have heard all the arguments against PFT, the fact is that many of those situations, that job would not exist but for PFT. The other basic fact, is that it works for many.
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