PFT-Let it fly!

[Dean]

Ok, fellow pilots and aspiring ones. I know this is probably going to ruffle some feathers, but lets step back an look at the big picture. I just did a search on GA and found a huge thread about what type of person would consider this route.

This is the one reason why im posting this thread. Are the ones who chooses this "PFT" route really that less of a person just because they took this way. Does it some how make the aviation profession that much unprofessional. should you not even be considered as a pilot for having done this? In the thread, someone wrote that if he is ever on an interview board and the person being interviewed got his chance in life taking this route, he would make him wish that he had never even heard of this "PFT". who are these ANTI-PFT people to judge.

Lets look at a term used in economics called Opportunity cost. It is defined as whatever must be given up to obtain some item. Ok, the whole argument that the ANTI-People have is that it suggests that we have in some way cheated our way to the top, and in this order, we are some how not qualified.

Becuase of this point of view that seems to be shared by most of those taking the instructer route, I would like to compare my Opportunity cost to that of an CFI's Opportunity cost. Lets say I take the PFT and he takes the CFI route. The CFI, which has gathered several hundred flight hours, is taking the "Noble" route having paid his dues. Working for peanuts, unless he owns his own school, getting by on a shoe string budget, the CFI has in no doubt earn any job he may land.

Now lets take me for example. Im 24, full time dad, full time husband, and also a full time student with 2yrs to go. Oh and lets not forget, I too work for peanuts. Being all this, I have managed to get my PPL thanks to strong support from my wife. I graduated in 1997 made some mistakes in life and didnt get back to school until fall 1999. after starting school on a part-time basis and then going full time and working too and flying mostly on the weekends, I have managed to get an associates degree and my PPL. In 2 more yrs i hope to graduate with a degree in Mathmatical sciences. So to anyone who would like to say that I have some how cheated my way through, I dare you to walk one day in my shoes. It is in no way easy, and by no way taking the CFI route easy either.

Whatever route you take the Opportunity cost we both will eventually pay is working for peanuts and the loss of a lot of valuable time. The price is high! What is your time spent with your family worth?
To get to the majors, we will both most likely have to have a 4yr degree. I just chose to do mine first.

If you think im a GA student your wrong. I live in TN and attend MTSU. they have an aerospace program to get all your ratings, but I want a degree that dont limit my options as much in life.

I have the upmost respect for those who have chosen the CFI route, but I respect those that for whatever reason chose to take an acadamy route. No matter how, when, or where we land a job in the majors we all will have paid a high price to get there.

 

[jdog78]

I think, in reality, most pilots don't really care how you got your ratings, as long as you have the skills to back them up. In fact, I've heard that some current airline pilots wish they could have done a PFT program. Online, there is a very vocal minority that scream bloody murder every time anything even remotely resembling PFT is mentioned. While they have valid reasons, most pilots are probably not as vehemently opposed. I think the animosity is more a result of bitterness and resentment than a sense of injustice, similar to the animosity between scholarship students and those whose parents footed the bill for college. Does the scholarship student have more of a right to his degree or a post-graduation job than a non-scholarship student? Is the non-scholarship student taking the spot of another scholarship student that could have been there?
Contrary to popular belief, there is no right way to do anything. Some may say that you are truly deserving of your pilot job if and only if you nobly served your country in the military. Others may say that you are truly deserving of your pilot job if and only if you built your time instructing in cessnas and pipers going back and forth and up and down through the practice areas ad nauseum, ad infinitum...
Everyone, however, has unique needs. The 49 year old who decides to finally pursue his dream of becoming a pilot may want to consider a PFT program. However, a 24 year old like you or me with time on our side really should do the CFI route. After getting my instructor ratings, I must say that I am an infinitely better pilot for doing so, and I have a marketable skill to show for it. Assuming they do not raise the retirement age, we have 36 years to establish ourselves in the industry. What's the rush? WIth the industry the way it is right now, even those who go to a place like Gulfstream may find they are hurrying up only to wait....nobody is hiring 500 hour pilots that I know of.
In the end, you must evaluate your set of circumstances and do what's right for you. However, I think you might want to consider at least obtaining your instructor ratings. You will be a better pilot for doing so.

-j

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T resentment, injustice, et al

I will come to the point. How do you like it when someone cuts you off in traffic, breaking the rules of the road, just to make that turn, for which you waited through upteen light changes and upholding all traffic laws, because following rules and laws are what our society is all about?

Or, when someone cuts in front of you in line at the bank, when you are in a rush to deposit your check so you can pay your bills?

Or, standing patiently in line at the grocery store and some thoughtless (or maybe deliberate) jerk cuts in front of you, not giving it a moment's thought that everyone else waits in line?

Point made, I hope . . . . . .

 

[Dean]

Using the logic that if one instructs therefore he must be the better pilot. My question is why? honostly, how many times does it take a person flying the cessna to figure out how to recover from a stall. Im not de-emphasizing the importance of stall recovery training, but I am saying that people are capable of learning and figuring things out with out spending half there life wasting time showing others how to do it. If you desire to be a CFI, then by all means do so. some people feel the desire to teach and that may be your calling, But if your goal is to start a career then why not go some where that is structered toward your career goals.

The logic that anti-pft uses is the same as saying before you can get a degree you should graduate having completed 12th grade and then spent exactly 4yrs in college and then you should do some teaching somewhere in between. There was a kid at my university that I think was 16 and got his undergrad degree in pre-vet. Just because this kid was able to do this, using your logic, the kid should not be considerd a viable candidate for grad school. He is not old enough. he did not spend as much time as the rest of us did. Face it! people are different and just because someone goes PFT and can learn and retain their skills in that kind of environment does not make them less of a pilot. Being a pilot is not rocket science, Although if not respected it can kill you, well a lot of other things can too.

Being a CFI would probably no doubt make you a better/Capable pilot in what ever airframe your flying, but there is no way you can compare a cessna 150 to a beech 1900. So explain why this would qualify a cessna 150 CFI and not a person who has 250 hrs in a Beech 1900 as the better person for a job. I dont see the comparison.

and I bet the ANTI crowd will love taking shots at this post.
I ask for though.
Thanks for the reply

 

[Timebuilder]

Well, Dean, if professional aviation was simply a static model of economics, then PFT would fit right in, in terms of "opportunity cost".

Of course, if aviation was this static model, we would have no profession, as we know it. There would be no pilot unions. Every pilot would have to sign training contracts that would be so expensive that it would take 15 years to work off the balance. Outside of major airlines, there would be few real "jobs", at least a job where you are paid by the company, rather than the other way around. Why? Because the airlines could do it, and it would save them money. Other carriers, like charter, could do it because pilots want the multi turbine time. Retirement would be limited to a 401K at best (no pension), and wages would be far lower, because those pilots who want to fly would have to take what is offered, since there is almosty always an oversupply of willing young pilots who dream of flying big airplanes.

Fortunately, we don't work or live in a static model of economic variables. The difference is people: people who have ideas and values regarding themselves and their work. They are interested in maintaining these values and the structure that helps keep flying from becoming indistinguishable from the job of bus driver. What values are these? Values like the firm foundation of knowlege one establishes in themselves when called to teach that knowlege to others, the work ethic of following the established, accepted methods of advancing in the profession, and the interest in leading and mentoring the young and uniniformed to follow the path of the professional. In Japan, this was known as the Bushido, or the Way of the Warrior. In Europe, it was the relationship of the apprentice, journeyman, and master.

There is much more to read and learn about how PFT damages the profession, and how you are looked upon by the majority of pilots when you pay to occupy a position that should be occupied by a qualified pilot who has followed his Bushido. PFT helps shady operators take advantage of eager youg pilots who think it is a good idea to try and bypass the established norms in order to get ahead faster. Other pilots will show them that this is wrong, either beore they start down the PFT path, or when they discover that they have done so, perhaps in an interview.

Choose wisely.

 

[Draginass]

I'm not really sure the beef is about, but getting an aviation degree and advanced ratings from a university flight training program is NOT considered "PFT" by anybody I know. Pay-for-training is something like paying to fly as a copilot for a company who is making money off your labor. In other words, they're double dipping and taking advantage of a desperate new pilot.

SWA borders on a PFT program in that you have to pay for your own training and type rating even though other major carriers train you themselves, at their expense. Unfortunately, it's become accepted in the industry and no doubt you'll see more of it as long as pilots are willing to cut each others throats for jobs . . . a natural outcome for way too many pilots for available jobs.

If your intentions are to eventually fly for a major airline, I'd advise against it. The accepted norms are no longer norms and by the time you get here it certainly isn't going to be the job you expect. The industry is changing fast and in a very bad way. With the demise of the power of unions, you can expect the airlines to take full advantage of the pilot oversupply, with decreasing compensation and increased (real) work hours/days. I've been flying all my professional career and it's just not fun anymore. I hate going to work, but I'm too old to switch careers without even more compensation losses than I'm experiencing now. . . . . . so I'm stuck with it. I don't know of anyone that enjoys their job.

This is NOT a profession for a family man anymore. Take advantage of that BS in Math. You'll probably be a lot happier and richer in the long run.

 

[Dean]

SO...I guess then the health industry is just full of people who just love to cheat, and therefore the training that they recieve should be considered irrelevent. This mentality that you have, although the Bushido thing is pretty impresive, is the same as saying: HEY nurse how did you learn to do that? Well I hope it doesnt make you mad, but I paid a local Community college to teach me how. so then they let me come to the Hospital and practice on real people, and yes I paid them to let me practice on you. How do you think doctors become doctors. It is the same way. Go to any university medical hospital and you find student that paid forthe chance to operate on you beside their mentors.

and also we could throw in all Commercial Truck Driving Inst. I guess they exploit the system too. lol
by the way, Im a bus driver, am I nobody. lol

 

[Draginass]

Your comparison between the medical and aviation professions is irrelevant. First, there is the tradition of the professions and secondly, residents are essential to training and the making of new doctors, while PFT is not essential to the piloting profession. Also, I believe, medical residents are paid, albeit not much. Maybe someone more familiar with the medical professions will pipe in and tell us for sure.

 

[Dean]

Who determines who is or who is not essential? Albeit the medical side and aviation side are 2 different things, but are very similiar as well. We both carry life in our hands. They do get paid something, but doe GA not pay there left seat something too?

 

[Dean]

lol I mean the Right seat.

 

[Timebuilder]

You need to put some study into critical thinking. I said nothing about the health care industry (about which I know a GREAT deal) but you did indeed try to link it to this discussion.

Actually, nurses are in great demand, according to a flight student/nurse of mine. She was never asked to pay a hospital for what should have been a paid position. She took a course where she learned what was required of her profession (like flight training), and when she finished as a RN (like a commercial pilot) she was not asked to pay beyond this basic requirement. At that point, she worked hard and helped to train new nurses (like a flight instructor) and was paid as a professional for doing so. Now she is being promoted to Charge Nurse (like a captain), and has no one who is paying to achieve a nursing job ahead of other RN's at her hospital.

Thanks for helping me to use another great analogy.

How do you think doctors become doctors. It is the same way.

The same way indeed. They pay to learn, not to work as independent doctors (required crewmembers). Even as third year student interns, their activities are closely monitored and very limited. They are always under supervision. They cannot open an office and hold out their services as physicians to the general public until they have finished all of the required training. This is THEIR bushido. They are following their path, laid out by those who have gone before them, not butting ahead in line, but assimilating the knowlege of the process. No one can bypass the internship and pay a fee in order to go right to being a full fledged physician.

and also we could throw in all Commercial Truck Driving Inst. I guess they exploit the system too. lol

I have had a class A CDL, and the designation that preceeded it, since 1968. I am also licensed as a bus driver.

Anything else?

 

[Dean]

Because you said it, I will use it.
"The same way indeed. They pay to learn, not to work as independent doctors"

PFT the same way indeed. They pay to learn, not to work as independent Aviators.

sounds the same to me.

people learn through experiance. If one takes the CFI route and does ump-teen thousand Touch and goes/stall in a 150, there is no way you can tell me he is better than the guy who has 250hrs in a high performance aircraft. Albeit he is probably a heck of a lot better at flying that 150 than anyone else but that is where it stops.

And who is to say there is a tradition. If anyone deserves a pilot slot more than anyone it is the guy coming from the military. Now that circumstance deserves Respect. I guess the Military guy could say who are these little sissy boys to afraid of going the Military route and getting shot at, and then they want to compete for my chance at a civilian career knowing what i have endured.
Military Aviators do by all means deserve the up most respect. and if anyone has earned the right to say so. it is them.

 

[Draginass]

And, of course, there's the practical side of things. If I (or I dare say 95% of others in my position) am on an interview board for an airline and I see PFT in an individuals resume, that's not a positive thing.

Like it or not, this is the real world.

 

[Dean]

So if you are an interviewer and here set 2 pilots applying for a spot, and one of these men was a CFI who had only very minimal CFI time and no exposer to a jet or turbo prop aircraft and the other who has and is now very comfortable handling the type of aircraft you have you would rather pick the guy that was a CFI just because you felt it was the noble thing to do.

That makes no sense at all. So now the company that has hired you to take care of this end of the business has to endure the added cost of having to train this pilot and as well pay him in the process. Not only in a time of economic slowdown did you just help add to financial burden that your company most now deal with but in some cases it could mean the difference between sink or swim for a small business. And just because you felt noble not only are there less capital for the company to invest but also there went all the Christmas bonuses as well.
Fire away guys.

 

[Timebuilder]

PFT the same way indeed. They pay to learn, not to work as independent Aviators.

Not so.

When you take the position that would normally be manned by a qualified pilot (one who is not paying extra money to someone for the privilege) then you are indeed taking the position of an independent aviator, one who has been chosen for the job not because of money, but because of a record of hard work (logbook) and experience.

people learn through experiance. If one takes the CFI route and does ump-teen thousand Touch and goes/stall in a 150, there is no way you can tell me he is better than the guy who has 250hrs in a high performance aircraft. Albeit he is probably a heck of a lot better at flying that 150 than anyone else but that is where it stops.

Since you don't know about instruction from the instructor side, let me enlighten you. First, you have PIC responsibility over somone who is not yet qualified. This unqualified person will find new and inventive ways to try and kill you on a regular basis. In addition, he or she may be as dumb as the proverbial box of rocks, and yet you as the instructor must find new and inventive ways to sufficiently educate this person about aviation so they don't ruin the aircraft and you as they become a safe and reliable pilot.

In addition, as you already no doubt know, there is far more being done in instruction than touch and goes in VFR weather. There is actual instrument and multi instruction as well, all of which is a normal part of this bushido. By finishing this experience of information explanation, interpretation, and transfer, you have properly prepared yourself for the next step: being a worthy competitor for a paid flying position outside of instruction.

And who is to say there is a tradition. If anyone deserves a pilot slot more than anyone it is the guy coming from the military. Now that circumstance deserves Respect. I guess the Military guy could say who are these little sissy boys to afraid of going the Military route and getting shot at, and then they want to compete for my chance at a civilian career knowing what i have endured.

Your beef here is a good one. Call Delta and ask them why they have set up their hiring standards this way. Most of the Delta guys are former military themselves in my age group. Most of the military guys I know came out and instructed, and used their contacts to get resumes carried in, based on the word of pilots who knew their flying abilities. I personally think that F16 time should be counted just like F14 or 15 time. At that level, I don't think the number of engines makes a big difference, except on paper.

Now, I would think that carriers with large former military pilot groups would have addressed the multi issue by now, but that hasn't happened. I'll let others answer your query about hiring military pilots.

However, this is a separate issue outside of PFT, isn't it?

 

[Dean]

yes. The military thing is a different issue, but my point i was trying to make is who has the right to say tradition. where does it start and where does it end?

 

[Timebuilder]

So if you are an interviewer and here set 2 pilots applying for a spot, and one of these men was a CFI who had only very minimal CFI time and no exposer to a jet or turbo prop aircraft and the other who has and is now very comfortable handling the type of aircraft you have you would rather pick the guy that was a CFI just because you felt it was the noble thing to do.

Not because it is the noble thing to do, or even because it is the more economical thing to do. It is because the guy who paid for a pilot position thought he didn't have to put in the time and the work required in order to earn the position, and thought he could push ahead in line of the other guy. Most people don't like that. In addition, the CFI candidate had to meet the basic requirements of total time and multiengine time. If someone else thought he was a good enough pilot to pay him to earn those hours, rather than the applicant going out and buying those hours, then he comes with a track record of earned success. He will likely be trainable to the company's standards, and will not bring any preconceived notions of his own to the new company.

Not only in a time of economic slowdown did you just help add to financial burden that your company most now deal with but in some cases it could mean the difference between sink or swim for a small business. And just because you felt noble not only are there less capital for the company to invest but also there went all the Christmas bonuses as well.

Why don't we apply this to all aviation jobs? I'll bet you there are a lot of pople who would love to fly airplanes for free.

I won't fly in the back, though. I'll leave that for the very brave. Or, the very stupid.

 

[Draginass]

When it comes to hiring, we're going to train the individual pilot anyway. It's required. What we hire at a major airline is potential and personality. The potential to complete training without problems and the personality to fit into the company ethos.

The reason that military pilots are often hired by major airlines is that they have already shown the ability to complete a complex training program and have experience in fast/heavy aircraft. In short, the course completion rate for military pilots is somewhat higher than pure civilian pilots (although both completion rates are very high). You can also factor in some bias, no doubt.

The way I look at PFT pilots is that they probably paid to ride along in the right seat to log some time, without getting the actual hands-on or PIC experience. The flight instructor might not have logged ride-along time in that turboprop flying checks at night, but his PIC time instructing and flying charter in that twin Cessna is worth alot more in terms of experience and judgement.

 

[Dean]

I won't fly in the back, though. I'll leave that for the very brave. Or, the very stupid.

If your implying that the PFT person is dangerous and the people in the back are stupid. Then show me Statisticly where this type of training is a cause for concern. If you can show me that in hard factual Evidence then I will think twice about this PFT, but i dont think you can. It seems this a matter of jealousy and or opinion. Please show me where this caused one death among a paying passenger.

 

[Timebuilder]

There are plenty of situations in life that I don't need statistics to suggest that I don't want to be involved in them.

I think passengers are brave or stupid to fly in an aircraft where any member of the flight crew is paying for the privilege of filling a required pilot position. This is beacuse the person was chosen for the position not because of skill or experience, but because the operator decided that he could take advantage of eager and uninformed pilots while lining his pockets with money from the crew and the unknowing passengers.

I am implying that the person who has followed the more traditional path has more, and more varied, flying experience than a person who has a few hundred hours and some specialized training thanks to parting with some extra cash. I am recognizing that this pilot has helped to lower wages by lowering the value of a pilot on the open market because he lowered his own value by paying for a job.

Please show me where this caused one death among a paying passenger.

While a passenger death might be your standard for this, my standard is the death of a paid pilot position, every single time someones chooses PFT.