PFT banner tow ripoff

[Captain Happy]

I worked for Tim with no endorsement in my logbook for almost 2 years parttime. As for the waiver he says he has/needs it may be something his insurance needs but I never saw it, nor did any of the other guys flying at the time96-98. Tim is a friggin used carsalesman. Anything that comes out of his mouth is pure crap. Please, please go somewhere else for your flight time.

Captain Happy

 

[citabriapilot]

I towed banners for an operator in Jacksonville and also had to have an endorsement, although I technically didn't pay for it. The pay to play scam was never mentioned to me until after I started doing some training with the other pilot. He told me if I knew I would be charged 2,000 bucks for the endoresment. I said I hadn't heard anything about it and that I would go elsewhere. I had tailwheel time already and I was an asset to the company, so if he was desperate enough, he'd train me for the sake of having another qualified pilot.

I eventually asked the bossman about paying and he said that most places charge to cover the training. BULLHOCKY! All the training I did was on revenue flights and I flew ONE solo flight for about a half hour picking up ropes. No out of pocket expenses for the operator, its all a scam to make profit off of unsuspecting and naive pilots.

Anyways, my "deal" with the operator was that I'd have to fly traffic watch for 200 hours at a 10 dollar an hour credit to pay for the endorsement. I accepted only because it was extra flying that I didn't expect to have, and I don't think I actually even flew that time off.

Stay away from any operator trying to rip you off with an endorsement. It is a requirement by the FSDO, but it shouldn't cost you money.

 

[FR8mastr]

I also flew banners in FL and had to demonstrate picking up and dropping banners, and emergency drops in front of a FED. The fed then signed my logbook for the waiver. Also the size of the banner is noted IE how many letters. this amount of letters singed off on becomes your official limit on how big a banner you can tow. This was all back in 89

 

[citabriapilot]

Come to think of it... I was supposed to have a FED come out and observe my pickups and drops, as well as look over the banner endorsement paperwork/waiver stuff. He came late and decided he just needed to see the paperwork and didn't watch any operations. This was in 2004.

 

[handlesaregay]

I can't believe after all these years that s-o-b is still running this scam and someone hasn't beat the crap out of him (yet). I guess most pilots are just too law abiding or too smart to risk getting arrested over a piece of scum like that. I fantasized about several revenge scenarios like ******************User Edited************************ but I figured the cops would have a pretty short list of suspects and a scumbag like that just wasn't worth the jail time.

Seriously though I think Tim's honed this scam to a science. I think the whole game is not to get the $2500 but the initial $1000 deposit. After you fight with him over the refund eventually he'll give in and let you have your $1500 back while keeping the so called "deposit" (geez man you're breakin my balls here) lol You feel like you've won by getting a partial refund while he is laughing all the way to the bank with the thousand bucks he just scammed from you. I am floored by the fact that he's been running this scam right out in the open for years and no one seems to be able to do much to stop him.

To the guy who used to work there: you're coming on like an unwitting victim when in reality you were sort of an accomplice weren't you? Not slamming you or anything I don't know what you did when you were there, maybe all you did was tow banners, but if you had anything to do with the training program than you were an accomplice. If you didn't fly with the "trainees" I apologize, but if you were one of the cfi's he had working for him you were as much a part of the fraud as Tim was. That said the couple of instructors I met there during that time period of the mid 90s seemed like decent enough guys who were caught in the middle, but that still doesn't excuse enabling someone to commit fraud against hundreds (if not thousands) of fellow pilots. Everyone I met who worked there knew what the score was, Tim doesn't do any of the flying he's just a salesman, without the CFIs he has working for him he is nothing. Maybe that's what we need to do is focus on the CFI/accomplices he has instead of focusing entirely on Tim which has never worked. Just my humble opinion. Maybe we can shame the guys he has helping him into not participating in this scam?

 

[nikoz1200]

The company I towed for in St Pete was nothing like this tool. Training was 60 bucks an hour wet, instructor included. When you and the instructor were happy with your performance, the training was over, and you started flying. I think it took me like 3 hours max since I had tailwheel experience already. That's how it should be and I wouldn't want to work for someone who tries to milk you dry like that.

Another guy to stay away from in the Tampa area is FAA-Florida Aerial Advertising...

 

[ms6073]

Maybe that's what we need to do is focus on the CFI/accomplices he has instead of focusing entirely on Tim which has never worked. Just my humble opinion.

Probably a good idea as I have gotten the impression that due to past litigation, Tim's wife's name is the one on the company's operating certificate which typically keeps Tim out of hot water. You know a quick search of the Airman database returned one hit for the name Pacini in the state of Florida and I don't think the data returned is for our guy as the data indicates an ATP issued in 2002 with G-1129, G-V, and LRJT types! So I would conclude that either he maintains a mailing address residence outside the state of Florida which seems kind of peculiar since he both lives and works in state or that Tim is not a licensed pilot.

 

[SiuDude]

From public records:

Tim Pacini, born in '64 was arrested for 2 felonies in 1999 and 2000.
One was for [SIZE=-1]Criminal use of personal identification information.The other was for a scheme to defraud (under $20,000).

Both where either "[/SIZE]Nolle Prosequi" or dismissed.

 

[joe_pilot]

Unfortunately, that is not true:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20041123X01861&key=1

Yup, the pilot was a good friend of mine. Stay away from Aerial Messages.

 

[Big Dog]

http://www.clerk.org/

Go down to Public Records & then Case Inquiry. Type in a name and accept. Type in Pacini in the Litigant last name and search. Look at all the cases he, his wife and his brother have had against them. You've gotta love the internet.

You also have to know the Volusia County is one of the shadiest on God's green Earth when it owns the address www.clerk.org

 

[timeoff]

I know this is an old post but I just had to post this.

Tim Pancini and Aerial Messages has been taken to court, sued and then had a judgement placed against him 30+ TIMES!!!!

Like the previous poster said, go to http://www.clerk.org/cm/case_inq/search_results.jsp?fullName=aerial&inqType=1 (Volusia county clerk of court), go to business name and type in "aerial". You will see the names of everyone that has sued him (FBO's, newspapers, and a LOT of pilots). What a toad.

 

[svcta]

I towed for a couple of years for an operator not near a beach. And I was very familiar with the regs of the biz. and our dealings with the feds, etc. There is NO ENDORSEMENT. Our FSDO required no documented training, nobody came out to watch us do anything. I'm unaware of any requirement to prove yourself to a FED regarding size of banners you can tow.

You do have to get your name put on your company's waiver....but that's FREE. Any training is only required by the insurance company and even then it's pretty vague. Ours only stipulated that there be some kind of training. After the guy I worked for watched be pick an empty rope a couple of times from the back seat we were done...........and he paid for the gas.

Bottom line: Find an operator that you WANT to work for. It took me a little longer to progress with my "career" but I never took a job working for someone that I thought might not want me to be safe. Except for that german adult film director.

 

[avbug]

I started and ran a banner towing operation some years ago. I did the initial tows for the FAA, in each aircraft we used, to obtain the initial letter and banner certification that went on our operating waiver.

Contrary to popular opinion, the FAA does provide an operating certificate of waiver to each operator, and does require training, and names of pilots involved. The FAA may or may not require logbook endorsements as part of the conditions of that certificate. However, if the instruction for the banner training is provided by a certificated flight instructor, the instructor IS required to provide a log book endorsement for the instruction given, regardless of w(h)eather that instruction is required by any regulation.

See 14 CFR 61.189(a):

§ 61.189 Flight instructor records.

(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.

The FAA produces an Advisory Circular entitled Information for Banner Tow Operations, which isn't numbered with the other circulars.

FAA Form 7711-2 is used to apply for the certificate of waiver to conduct
a banner towing operation.

14 CFR 91.311 provides the requirement that operations be conducted in accordance with the certificate of waiver:

§ 91.311 Towing: Other than under § 91.309.

No pilot of a civil aircraft may tow anything with that aircraft (other than under § 91.309) except in accordance with the terms of a certificate of waiver issued by the Administrator.

(91.309 covers towing of gliders and ultralights)

The requirement for a logbook endorsement, training records, type of training, pilot qualifications, etc, are spelled out in the certificate of waiver issued by the FAA. Several posters have stated that they didn't see this whe they towed...did you ask to see it?

The certificate holder must maintain on the certificate the names of all pilots, their certificate numbers, ratings, and home addresses, and the makes and models of all aircraft that will be used in the banner tow operation. The certificate, in it's current form, must be aboard each aircraft that's used in the operation and named in the certificate.

No doubt that the person involved is shady and has a long history of being the target of litigation, with documented mechanical failures and what can clearly be seen as dangerous and carless operation. I haven't flown for him or met him, nor have I seen his authorization to conduct banner operations, but I would be hesitant to say he doesn't require the endorsements legallly, until I've seen those documents. Merely because you haven't found a regulation that formally states an endorsement is required to tow banners, doesn't mean that it isn't, for a particular operator. Additionally, even thought the certificate may not spell out the need for an endorsement, the approved training program the operator uses may have that as a requirement, and as the training is required as part of the certificate of waiver, any requirements that apply to that training program are also required for compliance with the cerificate of waiver, and are subsequently required in accordance with 91.311. Understanding the regulation often means visiting more than one place.

Additionally, the FAA has provided direction regarding issuing of the certificate of waiver, as well as surveiling the operator, in FAA Order 8700.1, the General Aviation Inspector's Handbook, Volume 2, chapter 45.

In order for a pilot to tow a banner, it must be done under a Certificate of Waiver or Authorization. It's issued in accordance with this Handbook. Under "Certificate Issuance" and the subheading "competency," we can find the following:

(2) Competency.

(a) Pilot Competency. The inspector must be satisfied that all pilots listed on the application are competent to perform their duties by confirming each pilot has:
• A reliable record of past experience
• Demonstration of sample pickup to a FSDO operations inspector
• A reliable record of successful completion of a banner towing training program

Bear in mind that this is the current policy, and was revised a year and a half ago.

Also provided is:

H. Change of Pilots and Aircraft. The certificate holder must maintain a list of all pilots and aircraft to be used in the operation. For ease of update, pilots and aircraft should be listed on a separate page and attached to the certificate. Whenever there is a change of pilots or aircraft, the FSDO must be notified at least 5 days in advance of the first date the aircraft or pilot is scheduled to operate. The FSDO must approve the change before the operation involving the new pilot or aircraft takes place. In the case of newly acquired aircraft, especially a restricted category aircraft, an airworthiness inspector may choose to inspect the aircraft.

We also read:

Operator Responsibility. Operators who hold a certificate have the responsibility to train each new pilot in banner tow operations and in the special provisions of the waiver.

The FAA Order even provides a sample pilot training form that includes full stalls, flight at critically slow airspeeds, banner pickup and drop (and takeoff with banner attached, where appropriate), failure of banner release system, loss of rudder control, partial power loss, and engine failure with banner attached.

Requirement by the operator that the pilot receive a logbook endorsement before the banner operator will put the pilot on his certificate may be the operator covering himself by having documentation to show compliance with training regulations. If the operator requires it, then the operator requires it...it's the operator's discretion to hire you, or put you on the certificate, and the operator doesn't need to do either...but may elect as a condition of hiring you to require the log endorsement before permitting you to be listed on the certificate.

In order to tow for the operator, you must be on the operator's certificate. If you want to get on the operators certificate, then you must complete the operators training program, whateve that may be, as well as meet any of the special requirements attached to the certificate of waiver. The operator may require an endorsement, or may have other methods of showing compliance with training requirements.

If a job is catering to low time pilots who may or may not be able to handle the job, then requiring that the low time pilot pays for his own training initially may not be out of line. Twenty five hundred bucks for getting some instruction in a banner pickup is out of line. We never charged a pilot to train them to pick up banners, but we also never let a pilot tow a banner for us who wasn't competent or in whom we didn't have confidence. Banner towing isn't rocket science. It does come with certain legal requirements, and may include associated with those legal requirements certain company requirements. Personally, I believe a pilot should be screened for a job, and the employer should exercise some professional discretion in selecting candidates for training in whom the employer has a modicum of confidence. An applicant shouldn't be required to post a training bond for a job like this, but if he or she is required, then protection needs to be in place to ensure that when the terms are met, the money comes back to the applicant.

Pilots do tend to be a shifty lot...I've seen a great many who take expensive training and give nothing back, and that damages the system for everyone. Training bonds, contracts, and other agreements are common place. However, training in a small single engine piston airplane to tow a banner isn't really in the same category as obtaining a type rating in a multi million dollar turbojet...nor can a new pilot handle (or be expected to handle) arduous training expenses...epecally when the job pays peanuts. An operator who rapes the pilots wallet is unethical, and doesn't set forth any semblence of professionalism, or establish any expectation thereof from the applicant. In other words, employee beware, the boss ain't very above-board. He's a shyster.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

I've flown for a few operations.
your best bet is Aerial Sign which was based out of HWO a few
years ago. They build their own planes and they are pure bred
banner planes. They have bases in HWO BLM and a few others.

They've changed hands a few years ago so some of this has
changed.

CE

 

[momalley81]

They're still based out of HWO, and still build the planes from scratch. Engines are replaced with Millenium rebuilds or factory new.


Summers they have weekend only operations in S. Jersey, NYC, SoCal and Long Island among other markets. Along with steady work on the NASCAR circuit, and NFL contracts as well. Pay is well above average ($20-$50/hr) and they take care of you pretty well on the road (a banner gig w/ company credit card that pays per-diem?!)

Operate as VanWagner Aerial media now. Highly modified J3, J5, PA12 and PA18's.

 

[Way2Broke]

AV BUG.... I read all your posts and wonder, "how did he get so smart?" Is there anything that you don't know? Thanks for contributing so much to FI.

 

[avbug]

Pro Flight Library CD by ASA (Summit Publications). Eighty bucks, has all the FAA publications on one disc, makes life simple, good search engine...and no paperwork to carry.