Pft…?

[JetBlast2000]

Lets say you were offered a job flying 135 charter in a Lear 35. Roughly 30-40 hours a month, good benefits with possible upgrade to larger a/c down the road. First year pay is about 30K. Only, you have to foot the bill for the first year training (about 14K for the Type). After that, they take care of the training cost. Is this true PFT, and if so, what is the difference between the charter job and a one flying a RJ for 18K where you don’t PFT?

Any thought…?

JB2k

 

[Nova]

what is the difference between the charter job and a one flying a RJ for 18K where you don’t PFT?

It seems pretty obvious, one of them is PFT and the other is not. The amount of money your making doesn't factor into a PFT topic. Whether you're making $12,000 a year as an instructor and told to pay for your checkout training or $60,000 a year and paying for your initial in a Citation, you are still paying for training.

If you can answer this question with a yes.... "Did I PAY FOR my TRAINING?" then you PFT'd.

 

[Whirlwind]

It seems pretty obvious, one of them is PFT and the other is not. The amount of money your making doesn't factor into a PFT topic. Whether you're making $12,000 a year as an instructor and told to pay for your checkout training or $60,000 a year and paying for your initial in a Citation, you are still paying for training.

If you can answer this question with a yes.... "Did I PAY FOR my TRAINING?" then you PFT'd.

I don't know that I agree, but perhaps we read two different things there...

Paying for a type rating that can be used anywhere isn't PFT, at least not in my book. If it was, than the money I paid for my multi-commercial rating is PFT.

Paying for company specific training is PFT, since it cannot be used anywhere else.

Thoughts?

 

[Nova]

I guess it would be one thing if you had type rating prior and got the job because you met established qualifications. Hiring without it and then sending them off so they can pay for the training seems an awful lot like PFT. Yes you'll come away with a type rating that you can use elsewhere but you didn't apply or get hired by company X to work elsewhere, you applied and got hired to work there.

 

[Timebuilder]

It seems pretty obvious, one of them is PFT and the other is not. The amount of money your making doesn't factor into a PFT topic. Whether you're making $12,000 a year as an instructor and told to pay for your checkout training or $60,000 a year and paying for your initial in a Citation, you are still paying for training.

If you can answer this question with a yes.... "Did I PAY FOR my TRAINING?" then you PFT'd.

Not so, and probably because "pay for training" is a phrase that is too broad, but it's the phrase we are stuck with in popular venacular.

PFT is when you pay for training that only allows you to work for one particular operator. You pay money to Gulfstream, and the only one you work for immediately after that is Gulfstream.

Paying for a type rating is not PFT, since in the example above, you can take that Lear type (nowhere near $14,000, by the way for people who can make use of the rating) and fly for any operator that uses a LR-JET type, as long as you have the proper differences training for the particular model under the common type. It's an investment in your career. I know of very few Lear operators that will send you for a type rating. Almost everyone I have spoken with expects that someone else in your aviation experience has handled the type for you before you approach them for a job. So, the buck stops with you. Some will give you an SIC checkout using some ground school and some flight time with a check airman to issue an 8410, and if you have flown for a while with a good captain who sees his job as also being an instructor, and you have sufficient actual stick time, you might be able to take the checkride after a year and get the type that way.

The type itself is useless without experience in the aircraft, unless it is a type that is a prerequisite to employment, such as is the case with Southwest. I would not counsel anyone to just go out and get a Lear type unless they had previous jet experience. Even the 35, a more domesticated Lear than the 20 series, is a real handful for the first thirty or forty hours, and it can get you into a fistfull of trouble very quickly. I was fortunate in that I had some experienced people to help me move from piston twins to the jet. It's probably one reason I am here to talk to you. I had an opportunity to get my type last summer, with several hundred hours of experience in the aircraft still fresh in my mind and muscle memory, and I made what I consider to be an informed decision to go in a different direction, mostly having to do with the depressed wages in aviation and the post-911 environment that put a glut of experienced pilots into the job market.

So, while it isn't PFT, unless you are ready to step up and use your previous experience to make this work, it may not be the best way to spend your money.

 

[350DRIVER]

Lets say you were offered a job flying 135 charter in a Lear 35

They are operating a Lear and cannot afford to pay for your training? That is enough of a red flag to run quickly in the opposite direction if it were me.

possible upgrade to larger a/c

They are even operating larger equipment than the Lear and want you to pay the $14K out of pocket? Enough said....


Do as you so wish but I surely would laugh and walk right out the door. I can't see any company who operates these expensive aircraft to make the pilot pay for the training, I don't care how much or how little the training costs are, or even if they will "repay" you slowly for the training over time... The bottom line is that this is not the norm with regards to the majority of the 135/91 flight departments that I have come across.


I would ask them to allow you to sign a training contract in place of the the out of pocket expenses that they are asking you to pay if you really want the job.

be smart.....

and fly for any operator that uses a LR-JET type, as long as you have the proper differences training for the particular model under the common type. It's an investment in your career.

A type rating with little or no time in the aircraft is not going to get you very far, most places want X amount of hours in type and school current in the aircraft. (FSI/SIMCOM/etc) You buy a type and two years from now you only have 30 hours in the aircraft and are not school current then you are not much more "marketable" than the other guy with no type.

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[banned username 2]

Lets say you were offered a job flying 135 charter in a Lear 35. Roughly 30-40 hours a month, good benefits with possible upgrade to larger a/c down the road. First year pay is about 30K. Only, you have to foot the bill for the first year training (about 14K for the Type). After that, they take care of the training cost.

I had this exact type of job offer when I had your time (2450 TT, 850 Multi)... Except THEY paid for the training, no type rating right away... Lear 35 SIC @ $30,800/yr (1994 dollars), with larger aircraft in the fleet... after about a year they typed me in the Lear, then the Falcon 10 a while later, and then the Falcon 20... It was great experience, but not one you should have to pay for...

Why do they want you to get the type right away? I assume you have no jet experience, why not just check you out as SIC and after a year go for the type? If you still have to pay, an SIC course should be less than the PIC course (same basic training, just pricing differences)...

Why don't you offer to sign a training bond instead... something that says if you leave in the first year you will pay them their training costs back...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I personally wouldn't spend a dime of your own money....

myself, and many others, found people to foot our FSI bills. All I had to do was give my word that I would stay at least a year (I did, I was building some PIC time) -- and all this happened when there was not a whole lot of jobs out there...

Why wont they foot the bill?
Is it because they say "pilots always leave and screw us" ......uh.....Why's that? - sounds like thier problem.
And dont buy that "upgrade to bigger stuff possible". make your decision based on whats on the table, dont let the GIV parked in the background entice you to writing a 14K check!

I would not worry about the PFT thing...nobody cares out in the world except if it glares off your resume like COLGAN AIRLINES or GULFSTREAM AIRLINES. Then you could have some explaining to do - if you even get to that point.

PFT:

Some (like myself) view PFT like this.......are you seeking shortcuts and willing to undercut the industry just to "fly"??.....well, maybe.....but my bigger concern is -- why wouldn't another company think you were good enough to invest in -- and -- more importantly..... why should I??



If you do it, will you get a type rating on the first time through school? 14K sounds cheap for Learjet initial type...but I could be wrong..


good luck

 

[JetBlast2000]

Thanks for all the responses.

The reason they want you to pay is because they have been burned before not because they can’t afford the cost. Apparently a promissory note (according to them) MAY not hold up in court… And, trying to get money from people can be a difficult regardless of the legal consequences.


As far as 14K for the type, I was told that after all is said and done (hotel, et all) that’s ball park. I was also informed that if you are going to spend the money, FSI gives you a certain amount of credits so you could start off with the SIC check out and get the Type down the road at no additional charge. I’ve not been to any of those training facilities, but I’ve heard that’s on way to be successful.

PFT,
Sure your paying for the type, but you can live on 30K a year. I think we would all agree flying a $20+ M RJ at 18K a year is horrific. If the RJ were in a corporate fleet, the pay would be several times that. Grated, the entry requirements would be different, but they are the same a/c. So who is under cutting the industry? Don’t get me wrong, a TAB kind of operation is another story, but lets look at the industry as a whole.

 

[Timebuilder]

The bottom line is that this is not the norm with regards to the majority of the 135/91 flight departments that I have come across.

I should have clarified that. Those who have openings (or had last summer) expected you to be either typed or have a current 8410 for SIC before being hired. I think that's market driven. Why, if they can hire a pilot who has been displaced from his carrier and who has Lear experience, would they send a low time pilot to school at their expense?

In this market, you can hire any number of typed and experienced pilots. If a carrier cannot fill a position with an experienced pilot, there may indeed be a reason.

 

[ThomasR]

Pft

I have not read all of the posts yet, but one factor came to mind at the beginning: Is there an employment agreement or contract involved in any of this money for service exchange? Most companies I have come in contact with want a specific time period of service after being trained. However, there seems to be some reluctance as to legalizing the agreement. Is time of service part of a PFT qualifier?

////////////// STILL IN THE JOB MARKET /////////////

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T defined

Lets say you were offered a job flying 135 charter in a Lear 35. Roughly 30-40 hours a month, good benefits with possible upgrade to larger a/c down the road. First year pay is about 30K. Only, you have to foot the bill for the first year training (about 14K for the Type). After that, they take care of the training cost. Is this true PFT, and if so, what is the difference between the charter job and a one flying a RJ for 18K where you don’t PFT?

Salary is irrelevent when discussing P-F-T. P-F-T is a hiring and employment issue, only. If you are offered a job but as a condition of employment you must remit money to the employer and/or its designated training provider to pay for your training with the company, then it is P-F-T. Thus, if you have to foot the bill for the first-year training, then you are indeed in a P-F-T situation.

A secondary prong to the test has been whether the training in question is esoteric to the company or leads to a marketable credential which is recognized universally. The first prong, above, is the primary determinant for P-F-T.

Of course, the long and short of P-F-T is you are buying a job. Remember that it is just that, only a job. Friends don't let friends buy jobs. Moreover, thou shalt not permit an employer to cornhole thee by way of P-F-T. Employers have plenty of other ways to cornhole you without you opening the door (as it were) to it by P-F-Ting.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

they require PFT because they are "always getting burned" and cant afford it...

that tells you enough.

 

[Publishers]

Insurance

For a number of 135 operators, their insurance is based on having type rated pilots in both seats. Therefore, the option of an sic non typed for a year or so would not always work.

Bobby -- I disagree. In this case, they are saying you have to have a type for the job. You can get one and the job is yours or not. What is the difference between that and Southwest. They are not saying "pay me" , they are saying pay someone if you want to work here.

PFT is only when you are paying the company and supposedly taking the place of a pilot who would have cost the company. Period.

 

[bobbysamd]

P F T

In this case, they are saying you have to have a type for the job. You can get one and the job is yours or not. What is the difference between that and Southwest. They are not saying "pay me" , they are saying pay someone if you want to work here.

PFT is only when you are paying the company and supposedly taking the place of a pilot who would have cost the company. Period.

The way I read the post, one has to pay for training for the type as a condition of employment. That is pay-for-training.

Would this same outfit forego the P-F-T tuition for someone who already has the type? If it would, then I agree with you, Pub, it is the same as Southwest. But it would be indeed and, in fact, P-F-T, if someone who is already typed must still P-F-T as a condition of employment.

 

[JetBlast2000]

Very Interesting

Paying for a type rating that can be used anywhere isn't PFT, at least not in my book. If it was, than the money I paid for my multi-commercial rating is PFT.

Hiring without it and then sending them off so they can pay for the training seems an awful lot like PFT.

PFT is when you pay for training that only allows you to work for one particular operator. You pay money to Gulfstream, and the only one you work for immediately after that is Gulfstream.

Some (like myself) view PFT like this.......are you seeking shortcuts and willing to undercut the industry just to "fly"??.....well, maybe.....but my bigger concern is -- why wouldn't another company think you were good enough to invest in -- and -- more importantly..... why should I??

Of course, the long and short of P-F-T is you are buying a job. Remember that it is just that, only a job. Friends don't let friends buy jobs. Moreover, thou shalt not permit an employer to cornhole thee by way of P-F-T. Employers have plenty of other ways to cornhole you without you opening the door (as it were) to it by P-F-Ting

PFT is only when you are paying the company and supposedly taking the place of a pilot who would have cost the company. Period.

Well, it seems there are many different views. If you were a true fundamentalist, then the only non-PFT program would be those who send pilots too school who have zero hours (ie a cadet program).
Thanks for all the posts.
In this particular job, if you had the type they would not make you pay.

 

[FN FAL]

they require PFT because they are "always getting burned" and cant afford it...

that tells you enough.

Not that I am agreeing or dissagreeing with you or the original poster about PFT, but the guy didn't say they couldn't afford it.

The reason they want you to pay is because they have been burned before not because they can’t afford the cost.

 

[Publishers]

said

The way I read the post, one has to pay for training for the type as a condition of employment. That is pay-for-training.

Would this same outfit forego the P-F-T tuition for someone who already has the type? If it would, then I agree with you, Pub, it is the same as Southwest. But it would be indeed and, in fact, P-F-T, if someone who is already typed must still P-F-T as a condition of employment.

The way I read the original, you have to have the type to work there, like Southwest. In some cases, if you like the individual you can say --look you want to get the rating, you will have a job here. The key thing would be if he is paying them. If he can get it at FSI separate from them, then no way it is PFT.

Right now when we hire anyone, they have to have the ratings. We are not going to pay for someone's type rating unless we cannot find someone already typed who meets the requirement. There is little difference here. You want to pay for your own rating, fine, we will consider you. If i paid for ratings, the fact is that your marketability changes the day you have one. If you leave for somewhere else, we have nothing even if you never flew for us.

None of these are you paying for the opportunity to take someone elses job who would have been paid which is what makes everyone so mad. Southwest poolies are told you are hired if you get the ratings on your own. What is the difference?

 

[pilotyip]

Not really PFT

This is boarder line PFT. It is a small company (I assume and not GS), no one will know two years from now if you engaged in boarder line PFT or not. When hiring is booming, and pilots with TJ PIC are getting front of the line privileges, you will be given choices in the hiring market that pilots without TJ PIC are not getting. The choice is yours, if you can afford it and it builds your resume to go to your next job, it is in your best interest. Do not let input from pilots who are not in your shoes and who do not have to make this career decision, influence you against what could be a good decision for you. Small companies have to protect themselves against self-centered pilots, and they are out there, who feel the world owes them everything and they owe no one anything. As I have posted before we have had two pilots quit the day they took their simulator check to go to work for another company. The other company told them to be trained by USA Jet and we will hire you. That hurts because our training program is 9 weeks long and costs us around $15,000 for a DA-20 F/O

 

[Britpilot]

They are operating a Lear and cannot afford to pay for your training? That is enough of a red flag to run quickly in the opposite direction if it were me.


They are even operating larger equipment than the Lear and want you to pay the $14K out of pocket? Enough said....


Do as you so wish but I surely would laugh and walk right out the door. I can't see any company who operates these expensive aircraft to make the pilot pay for the training, I don't care how much or how little the training costs are, or even if they will "repay" you slowly for the training over time... The bottom line is that this is not the norm with regards to the majority of the 135/91 flight departments that I have come across.


I would ask them to allow you to sign a training contract in place of the the out of pocket expenses that they are asking you to pay if you really want the job.

be smart.....




A type rating with little or no time in the aircraft is not going to get you very far, most places want X amount of hours in type and school current in the aircraft. (FSI/SIMCOM/etc) You buy a type and two years from now you only have 30 hours in the aircraft and are not school current then you are not much more "marketable" than the other guy with no type.

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