Pet peeves from the ATC folks

[Lostdog65]

Runway changes and slam dunks. I try to be conservative here, because of stuff I hear on boards like this, but I work with controllers who use them gleefully; because nobody complains, and some guys will ask for them to get to the airport 30 sec faster. That's right, it doesn't do a dang bit of good for me to tell my peers and trainees "Try not to switch runways on them inside 15 miles" and then have three pilots the next day offer to switch runways at 6 miles to beat the King Air to the ramp. Same for the slam dunks. I just saw an Emb 170 the other night do a dam fine impression of a B727 that I didn't even think was possible in the newer jets. I didn't instigate it, they did it on their own. A non-pilot controller sees that, and some will assume every airliner can do the same.

My complaint about the slam dunk usually comes when their's a regional coming into the airport and the controller is "doing me a favor" by getting me in. Happens a lot at Chico coming from the East and Redding coming from the North and West (read mountains). I know there are MVA's and such but why does one controller insist on 9k 20DME from RDD and another will let me go to 7300 at 20DME? I ask...no one knows. Going from 9000 to 5500 in 3 miles is a lot harder on the old piston twin than going from 7300 to 5500 in 3 miles. Sometimes...sometimes...if the stars align and the controller is in a good mood and his wife didn't yell at him that morning...I can get 6000 at 20DME...oh...I live for those days!!

In my younger days, I'd try to beat feet in, try to shave that 3 minutes off, try to beat the KA with my 340. Ain't worth it boys. You shave 3 minutes...guaranteed you're gonna lose that 3 minutes going home. Guarant-d*amn-teed. If it means that much to you to beat the RJ into SMF or OAK...knock yourself out. I'm getting paid by the hour!

Eric

 

[Vector4fun]

Hold, Why does the "turn the slow aircraft" rule only apply when the slow aircraft is non-airline?? When the overtaking aircraft is corporate, ATC turns or delays the corp aircraft instead if the "slow" airliner. Why the double standard?

NJA, I can't give you an honest answer to your question re a C750. At my place, I don't work with any controller who wouldn't take the opportunity to put a C750 in front of a B737. That's a no-brainer. Now, a C500, ugh, I've worked Cheyennes and Super King Airs that would eat you alive in the climb....

 

[Vector4fun]

How about when the fix is in your own airspace? Many times we file to a fix, then we are read off a full route with radial/dist to radial/distance. No big deal there, but one day I decided to plot that mysterious PBD/PBD compared to the filed intersection. The intersection of the two radials was within 1 degree of heading and less than 1/2 mile from the filed fix. Here's your sign.......

NJA, we had that exact same scenario here for a few years until we got the DPs all published and sorted out. (A sorry tale of Govt inaction if there ever was one...) We were told we had to read the Prefferential Departure Route, (PDR) exactly as it was printed on the strip. Didn't matter if there was a fix 3 miles away on the same radial that would have worked as well. The strips said XXX 088/052 and that's what we had to read. Believe me, we liked it no more than the pilots.

 

[F16fixer]

While we are at it, I was wondering if anyone else ever has problems dealing with Colombia FSS in MO. These F#cking idiots are the bottom of the barrel! The one lady sounds like she is on oxygen and can hardly breathe. (If you need real time help with a T-storm or any other weather she will gladly read the TAF to you!) The other two guys that I normally talk to can't figure out how to bring up a canned flight plan, so they make me file a new one! It is a crap shoot when you call that place. If you guys have any kids that work at McDonald's and that's not working out for them, tell them to apply to the Missouri flight service station.

 

[NJA Capt]

That's right fellas, some of you are getting a 20 mile final instead of 10 because you won't get that hot-rod jet down and slowed in a timely manner, so I'm not screwing up the finals by trying to shoehorn you into a 7 mile gap at 240 kts and a grand high. You're going to the end of the line.

This is where a nationwide standardization policy would help out. Approach controllers work "their" area, while we are flying into 500 areas. Each controller wants it done the "local way." If you come into the NYC area and slow below 240 kts you get yelled at. Then you go to CLE or IAD and they think people are still flying DC-3s (170 kts???) You enter NYC airspace at +/-2000 AGL. At places like MCO and ATL they vector a downwind at >9000 MSL and give a 20 mile final in VMC.

I am always (ok almost always) glad to help out. I can fly slow and I can come down fast. BUT.....We can't slow down while coming down fast (>2000fpm), the laws of physics won't allow it.

Guys in FTW DFW/DAL.....Thanks for the good job. The only controllers in the US with passing lanes on the arrivals.

 

[Hold West]

Hold, Why does the "turn the slow aircraft" rule only apply when the slow aircraft is non-airline?? When the overtaking aircraft is corporate, ATC turns or delays the corp aircraft instead if the "slow" airliner. Why the double standard?

See example on pg 5 of this thread.

Puttin' on my grumpy hat here.

I bet every time you go to the store you complain about getting stuck with the slow cashier.

I bet every time you pull on the freeway, there's some clown doing 5 mph under in the left lane.

I bet every time you drive through Mickey D's they screw up your order.

I bet every time you go to take a crap, someone's used all the TP and not replaced the roll.

Baloney. It happens occasionally and pisses you off, so it becomes every time situation X arises, Y happens. Over-generalization. I'm not buying it.

I will give you my personal rule: it's a first-come first-serve system, but, all else being equal, if I have a tie at the airport, or an arrival fix or whatever, and there are no other factors involved, I'll put the airplane with the most people in it on the ground first. Sorry, but those 150 folks have been trapped in a 17-inch wide, 31-inch pitch coach seat for three hours in light to moderate chop with the seat belt sign on, while your boss was in back getting a pedicure at FL450. If I can get them off the plane three minutes sooner I will. You're number 2.

Flame on, I'm made of asbestos.

 

[HS125]

Not unless you're one of those really old and crusty captains -- I left FNT in '78 for a twenty year stint at ORD. Procedures may very well be the same now, though, I think there's still a NWS on the field at FNT.

Guess not, I'm getting old but not that old. I didn't start flying until 1978.

 

[NJA Capt]

Over-generalization

That sums up your response nicely.

I will give you my personal rule: it's a first-come first-serve system,

but...I'll put the airplane with the most people in it on the ground first.

Well.......I think that pretty much makes my case. Thanks.

Sorry, but those 150 folks have been trapped in a 17-inch wide...coach seat for three hours .....while your boss was...at FL450. If I can get them off the plane three minutes sooner I will. You're number 2.

150 pax that voluntarily paid $69 to be in a 17 in wide coach seat.

 

[dhc8fo]

Flame on, I'm made of asbestos.

I like you man!

(I have enjoyed your comments and am getting lots of insight from all of you guys, thanks!)

 

[Hold West]

Well.......I think that pretty much makes my case. Thanks.

Come on dude, don't snip up the quote to make it say what you want. You left out the part that says:

but, all else being equal, if I have a tie at the airport, or an arrival fix or whatever, and there are no other factors involved,

Big difference! If you are ahead by a couple of miles, if you're going to take less time going straight in than the air carrier that has to do downwind-base-final, you're number one. If it's a toss up, all else being equal, sorry, Charlie, report the 757 in sight.

Now, let's address the blow-by issue. There you are in your GV, cruising along at .84. Here comes the 757, at .80. He's grounding at 440, you're grounding at 480.

Let's say I have a sector that's 140 miles long. The two of you are pacing along at 7-8 miles per minute, which means I have you for about 18 minutes. You come over 12 miles behind the 757, and I need to put you out the other side over an arrival fix at the same altitude, therefore I need 6-7 miles separation (5 miles is minimum in enroute). So, you need to make up the 12 miles you are behind, and the additional 6+ in need in front, for a total of 18 miles. The problem is, back in the first sentence, the overtake is 40 knots, or 2/3 of a mile per minute, and in the 18 minutes I have available, you will only make up 12 miles of the difference... or, end up right side-by-side of the 757. I can't have that.

The point is that blow-bys CAN work, but they take a lot of time and airspace. Throw some other things into the scenario, like making it an enroute sector, with a 10 or 15 mile-in-trail restriction, and it's even worse.

Then too, put two or three airplanes ahead of the 757 in my example, and there's no where to go even if I thought the blow-by would work.

I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm just saying that it's a more difficult situation that it appears to be at face value.

Gotta go plug in and talk to some of you guys now, next break I'll share my favorite attempted blow-by story.