Pesky evidence no more...

[CLCAP]

In Matthew 5:21-26 Jesus amplifies the meaning of the sixth commandment. He brings out that to commit murder means more then just killing someone, it means having an angry and unforgiving attitude towards them. The apostle John elaborates on this by writing that to hate someone is the same as murdering them (1 John 3:15). Murder like all sin, beginnings in the human mind (Matthew 15:18-19; Mark 7:20-23) it starts as a thought, in this case hatred, which leads to the action of murder (James 1:13-15; 4:1-3). The opposite of hating someone is loving them, we should even love our enemies (Matthew 5:43-48), seeking not revenge, but looking for ways to help them (Romans 12:17-21).

Yep.....that's exactly what most here want us to do!

And how about Matthew 5:9

Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

 

[Timebuilder]

I don't hate them.

I hate what they have done, what they do, and what they want to do.

Murder includes the concept of the unauthorized and unjust taking of life. You and I can only take a life without the structure of civil authority unless our own life or that of another is in danger.

That certainly is the case with terrorism.

 

[ATL2CDG]

Murder includes the concept of the unauthorized and unjust taking of life. You and I can only take a life without the structure of civil authority unless our own life or that of another is in danger.

And what scripture specifies these concepts?

As far as I know, the scriptures do not differentiate between 'kill' and 'murder'. The commandment is 'Thou shall not kill', not 'Thou shall not kill.... (fine print)...'

 

[CLCAP]

So do you love the terrorists? (Matthew 5:43-48)...and how about you attitude towards people that do not want a war that was based on false premises? (Matthew 5:9) (see quote in my last post)

 

[Dizel8]

Hard to control the media and the public, when you cannot control the pictures or the words.

Obviously, Rummy is none to pleased with the release of the prison pictures or the release of the picture of caskets of our brave service men and women.

It might make the public ask hard questions. Can't have that now, can we? Certainly not this close to election!

 

[Timebuilder]

So do you love the terrorists? (Matthew 5:43-48)...and how about you attitude towards people that do not want a war that was based on false premises? (Matthew 5:9) (see quote in my last post)

If you are talking about extending the love of Christ to all humans, the answer is yes. This is far different from what we normally consider to be "love" among ourselves, which carries a connotation of admiration and respect. That's a different animal entirely.

As I said, I do not believe we have here a war based on false premises. Sadaam broke the peace agreement. That's all that was needed.

It might make the public ask hard questions. Can't have that now, can we? Certainly not this close to election!

Many don't know the rhyme about maintaining security during wartime: "loose lips sink ships." No one is saying that wrongdoing should not be punished, but lets be honest here. A democrat president whould not be getting heat from a frustrated press over some pictures of naked men.

It's strictly a political agenda at work.

If hard questions are to be asked, then why were't these prisoners being interrogated with more forcefulness?

 

[Dizel8]

Left wing conspiracy, right wing conspiracy. Always a conspiracy, isn't it.

 

[Dubya]

Obvious?

quote: cclap
"It's pretty obvious at this time that Sadam (as evil of a person as he was) did not even remotely pose a threat to us - and if we thought so before and the intel was wrong - well fess up to it."

This is obvious...how? Go back and look at the comments made by almost ALL of the Dems prior to our invasion. I don't see how you can assert that there is anything obvious about what was and is going on over there.

W

 

[jarhead]

Timebuilder,

For you to state that the events in Abu Ghriab were just pictures of naked men, is for you to deny the reality that took place there. Pictures of naked men conjures up an image of someone in the doctors office getting their annual physical exam. The photos I've seen show torture and inhumane treatment.

I've seen pictures of a man handcuffed to a railing bent over in an extreme position, hooded, and reported to have been in this agonizing position for days. I've seen photos of German Shepard dogs with barred teeth in a man's face. I've seen video of guards striking a shackled and hooded prisoner to the ground,while other guards watch in apparent amusement. I could go on and on.

You destroy any credibility you might have, when you understate the reality to a degree that makes you look like you are intentionally misleading folks. I'm not blind, and I don't think you are either. These were not just naked men. They were naked men being beaten and tortured. You profess to be such an advocate of the teachings of Christ. So, I ask you, WWJD if He saw this stuff going on in Abu Ghriab?

 

[Timebuilder]

Left wing conspiracy, right wing conspiracy. Always a conspiracy, isn't it.

No, it's a matter of getting the job done, the job we are there to do. There are already procedures in place for dealing with soldiers who step outside the boundaries of policies and orders. The photos, in this case, were brought to light by a disgruntled father. Both he and his son should be arrested for sharing confidential information that could undermine the war effort and bring aid and comfort to the enemy.

Those who stepped outside the boudaries should be investigated, if that is what happened. Thats for the experts to investigate, and reporters and congressmen are not the experts.

The motivation of the press is to make themselves appear to be champions of fairness and to sell advertisiing, and to support ideas and events that will bring their friends back to power. That isn't a "coonspiracy," it's a part of human nature.

All you need to be able to see a good illustration of this is to read the ramblings of the democrats on the 9-11 comission as they made speeches and asked rhetorical questions instead of asking questions of witnesses, and also things like telling Rudy Giuliani that a troop of boy scouts could have done a better job of coordinating response efforts on 9-11. That isn't evidence of seeking the truth, it's the evidence of their agenda.

It doesn't make it a "conspiracy," it's evidence of desperation.

 

[Dizel8]

"No, it's a matter of getting the job done, the job we are there to do."

Does the end justify the means?

What are we there to do? I mean our "new" mission. I thought it was to establish law and order. To create a democracy, where the rights of people are respected. To establish a society, where illegal jailings, torture and killing would be frowned upon.

Was I mistaken?

 

[Timebuilder]

I've seen pictures of a man handcuffed to a railing bent over in an extreme position, hooded, and reported to have been in this agonizing position for days.

I've seen pictures of Americans hung from a bridge.

The photos I've seen show torture and inhumane ttreatment.

I've seen pictures of a man handcuffed to a railing bent over in an extreme position, hooded, and reported to have been in this agonizing position for days. I've seen photos of German Shepard dogs with barred teeth in a man's face. I've seen video of guards striking a shackled and hooded prisoner to the ground,while other guards watch in apparent amusement. I could go on and on.

I'm sure we've seen shepherd dogs with their teeth bared on the streets of America, too. If that scares a prisoner into revealing a weapons cache or a leader's identity, I'd have to say that if one dog is good, then two dogs might be better.

I haven't seen any pictures of "torture" except for the pictures and videos of Sadaam's activities at the same prison. THAT'S torture, my friend. Did you see the video last night of the hand amputation? Are we doing anything, anything at all that rises to that level?

Guards watching in amusement? Are you serious? How can anyone get this upset about some rogue MP's who engage in illicit sex on duty? They get canned as they should, and it's on with the buisiness at hand.

Our intent is not to make these bad guys feel good, it's to make them uncomfortable. VERY uncomfortable without putting them into a Paris Cradle and hooking their gonads up to a 1kv line.

You destroy any credibility you might have, when you understate the reality to a degree that makes you look like you are intentionally misleading folks. I'm not blind, and I don't think you are either. These were not just naked men. They were naked men being beaten and tortured.

Send me a link to the "beaten and tortured" part. I haven't seen that, and I don't think you have, either.

You profess to be such an advocate of the teachings of Christ. So, I ask you, WWJD if He saw this stuff going on in Abu Ghriab?

I have a better question:

What did Jesus do with Sodom and Gomorrah? How did He feel when He was crucified? Did he say it was wrong for a duly authorized power to dispense justice? Did He say that His scourging should not be tolerated by His followers?

No. He did not. He recognized that we all have a sinful nature, and that the time where He would put an end to suffering was still to come.

He healed many hundreds of people. Did He heal them all? No. He advocated the feeding of thousands of hungry people, and multiplied the fish and loaves with His own hands. Did he end all hunger? No.

We chose this, this state of existence, via our original ancestors. We decided that we didn't want the paradise that God had made for us, and this is the time in our history where we suffer for that choice. Wars. Rumors of wars. Pestilence. Disease. It's all a part of the choice we made.

Neither you nor I know exactly what went on in that prison, where training was insufficient, and when soldiers violated policy. We do know that it is small potatoes compared to what happened under Sadaam. That's more worth getting this upset about.

 

[Timebuilder]

"No, it's a matter of getting the job done, the job we are there to do."

Does the end justify the means?

What are we there to do? I mean our "new" mission. I thought it was to establish law and order. To create a democracy, where the rights of people are respected. To establish a society, where illegal jailings, torture and killing would be frowned upon.

Was I mistaken?

I thought your position was that we went in to steal Iraqi oil. Wasn't that it, or was that someone else? It's hard to keep everyone straight.

No not every means is justified by the ends. That's a judgement call. I will tell you this: if one marine lives becasue of that goofy guy standing there in the black hood, I'm going to WalMart to buy them more black cloth to make more hoods.

 

[jarhead]

Timebuilder

You really are becoming quite tedious. You do not reply at all to my assertion that you lied when you said there were just pictures of naked men. You respond with statements that you've seen pictures of corpses hung from a bridge. How in the world does that equate at all to what went on in Abu Ghriab? I've seen photos of blacks in America being lynched by mobs at the turn of the century (20th) That is just as much a nonsequiter as you stating corpses hung from bridges proves it was only photos of naked men in Abu Ghriab.

I can not continue a dialog with someone who is so driven by ideology, that they will ignore the truth.

G'day, mate.

 

[Dizel8]

No, I have never said, that we went to Iraq to steal the oil, as matter of fact, I am saddened that we do not use their oil to repay our expenditures. However, that would not be politically correct.

Yes, there is a time and procedure for coercion techniques and I am sure we have trained personnel over here to do it. For some odd reason though, none of the accused appear to be in possesion of those skills. They do appear to show glee and giddiness in humiliating the prisoners. Not something that shows well for the american people or the Iraqis.

At a time when we certainly do not need it, these misguided people has further fueled the hatred against the US.

Two wrongs do not make a right. The killing of Mr. Berg, the mutilation of the four contractors is beyond despicable, but as much as we wish to, we must not sink to those levels.

War is a evil, mean, nasty, dirty, rotten business. However, just like we try not to kill innocent civilians, we should not accept gross inhumane treatment of prisoners.

You believe, as do I, that we are defenders of freedom and the right of the people, as such, we should be outraged by those pictures, since that is not the american way to conduct affairs.

 

[Timebuilder]

Re: Timebuilder

You really are becoming quite tedious. You do not reply at all to my assertion that you lied when you said there were just pictures of naked men. You respond with statements that you've seen pictures of corpses hung from a bridge. How in the world does that equate at all to what went on in Abu Ghriab? I've seen photos of blacks in America being lynched by mobs at the turn of the century (20th) That is just as much a nonsequiter as you stating corpses hung from bridges proves it was only photos of naked men in Abu Ghriab.

I can not continue a dialog with someone who is so driven by ideology, that they will ignore the truth.

G'day, mate.

Tedious.

Funny, I was trying to think of a nice way to say the same thing about you.

The important part of your example of blacks being lynched is that was a long time ago, and not a part of this conflict. Not even three months has gone by since Americans were hung from that bridge. That event IS relevant to this discussion, as it is an exanple of the dynamic that has been set by our enemy.

This theatre of war is among a paricularly barbaric and evil people who are conditioned to torture and death. While we don't want to imitate their degrees of mistreatment, we need to be as hard as possible on them, withing the boundaries of human decency. Determining where the limits are is a job for expewrts and diplomats, not the red cross or the NY Times.

What I have seen is pictures of naked men. I have no reports that the wires attached to the prisoner ever carried even one milliamp of electric current. I have seen the prisoners stacked like cordwood. I have seen nothing that is "torture."

If you have a link to torture or beating (outside of what a child molester can get today in an American prison), then I invite you to submit your evidence.

Have I satisfied your interest, or do you need something that I have not supplied?

 

[Timebuilder]

For some odd reason though, none of the accused appear to be in possesion of those skills. They do appear to show glee and giddiness in humiliating the prisoners. Not something that shows well for the american people or the Iraqis.

The soldiers we have seen do not seem to be properly trained, and I agree that needs to be addressed.

My view is that this should never have come to public light in a time of war, and that the internal investigative process should have been more than enough to corrrect any gross misconduct. The people in the pictures, the soldiers, appear to be having far too good a time in their activity. Some play acting might help motivate a prisoner to talk, but the level of glee is what I find most disturbing.

Second, I have difficulty with the idea that this is as effective as some claim it is as a softening technique. We have pharmaceuticals for that.

Third, the level of outcry is not in proportion to the activity I have seen in the pictures. People are saying the word "torture," and I haven't seen any. I have seen some humiliation, more driven by the beliefs of the prisoners than by a general standrad of modestry. A typical adult video has more activity and humiliation than a soldier with a cigarette pointing to a guys genitals.

I think we have indeed seen a lot that needs to be fixed. Bringing the standard of Christ into this question of behavior is a red herring, since we do not have an officail religion, and our courts are not led by Mullahs. If Christ were in charge, the entire transformation of Iraq might have taken a few milliseconds, if that long. Christ isn't in charge, sinful humans are, and we face an evil that wants to kill us and anyone else who does not follow their evil doctrine. That's the truth. Even though this is not a religious war for us, it is for THEM.

And that means we need unity and strength to overcome this challenge.

 

[deez_nutz2000]

Unfortunately, I fear you shall either have to become accustomed to the fact that not everyone thinks like you or you can simply ignore what I say.

Welcome to America.
[/B]

Oh, know your a$$ is gonna pull the "welcome to the land of I can say what I want" bull$hiite. Go get me a beer and some peanuts, stewardess beotch. And shut your fu*kin mouth.

 

[Timebuilder]

No, I have never said, that we went to Iraq to steal the oil, as matter of fact, I am saddened that we do not use their oil to repay our expenditures. However, that would not be politically correct.

Yes, there is a time and procedure for coercion techniques and I am sure we have trained personnel over here to do it. For some odd reason though, none of the accused appear to be in possesion of those skills. They do appear to show glee and giddiness in humiliating the prisoners. Not something that shows well for the american people or the Iraqis.

At a time when we certainly do not need it, these misguided people has further fueled the hatred against the US.

Two wrongs do not make a right. The killing of Mr. Berg, the mutilation of the four contractors is beyond despicable, but as much as we wish to, we must not sink to those levels.

War is a evil, mean, nasty, dirty, rotten business. However, just like we try not to kill innocent civilians, we should not accept gross inhumane treatment of prisoners.

You believe, as do I, that we are defenders of freedom and the right of the people, as such, we should be outraged by those pictures, since that is not the american way to conduct affairs.

I think we should still use the oil revenue to offset the monetary costs of war. I'm not concerned that it is not politically correct.

The point I am attempting to make, albeit badly from the responses, is that the level of misbehavior does not rise to the level that is being described or claimed by the media.

We need retraining, and some courts martial, but it should be handled internally by those in the military who know what's what, and not by civilian Monday morning quarterbacks like senators and newspaper columnists.

 

[Dizel8]

'My view is that this should never have come to public light in a time of war."

Why, because it looks bad? Because it portrays some of the crap going on over there? Because it does not reflect the mantra of "liberty and justice for all" emanating from the powers that be?

I view it differently, I think we have a golden opportunity here, to show the world, that we know right from wrong. That we do not shy away from our repsonsiblity to punish those, that engage in such behaviour. That we apply the law equally to friend and foe.

That to me, is the american way!