Pesky evidence no more...

[ATL2CDG]

Ah ah ah ah ah, Timebuilder!

Let's not change the subject... I know it's hard, but you're a smart man and I know you can stay on topic.

 

[CLCAP]

Well people - I'm sorry to say it - but you are just going to have to LIVE with the fact that more and more Americans (looking from the begining of this century till now) give a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**! They don't see much difference between an innocent Iraqi and an innocent American. Call it soft, stupid anything you like. You can call the media liberal until you turn blue in the face - comparing our media to say - European, Asian, South American, Australian, well he11 even Canadian (not to speak about middle eastern) - we have the most conservative media in the world. You just continue drinking the Bush koolaid until elections.

And Timebuilder - you seem to be the biggest enigma on this board - you seem to consider yourself christian but where is the love? If I don't remember it wrong - Jesus was about loving other people, helping them and sacrificing - nowhere can I find anything about attacking other countries under false pretenses and not owing up to it. (If Bush at least would say - we were wrong about the WMD's - but the man is NEVER wrong) or torturing and humiliating innocent people (our own government admits that 60-90% of the people in that prison happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time)

To me you really are an oxymoron.

 

[Timebuilder]

Call it soft, stupid anything you like. You can call the media liberal until you turn blue in the face - comparing our media to say - European, Asian, South American, Australian, well he11 even Canadian (not to speak about middle eastern) - we have the most conservative media in the world. You just continue drinking the Bush koolaid until elections.

Having been a memeber of said liberal media, I have the standing to speak on it. Just because other countries have an extreme liberal bias does not mean our media is in any way "conservative." I don't drink anyone's Kool Aid. Hey! Another personal attack. Out of ammo?

And Timebuilder - you seem to be the biggest enigma on this board - you seem to consider yourself christian but where is the love? If I don't remember it wrong - Jesus was about loving other people, helping them and sacrificing - nowhere can I find anything about attacking other countries under false pretenses and not owing up to it. (If Bush at least would say - we were wrong about the WMD's - but the man is NEVER wrong) or torturing and humiliating innocent people (our own government admits that 60-90% of the people in that prison happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time)

I have a greater love for my fellow citizens than I do for the terrorists. God has lead His people into battle countless times, and given them victory. If you are implying that Christianity is a pacifist idea, I think you will find that is not the case. Read Revelation, and find out what God has planned for those who are against Him. You're in for a surprise.

Where are the false pretenses you're talking about? As far as I'm concerned, we had all the reason we needed to go into Iraq when Sadaam violated the cease fire agreement and the weapons inspection agreement, and the UN resolutions, and the....well, you get the idea. As far as WMD's, I think they will be found in Syria, since we spent so much time working on the coalition, giving Sadaam ample time to move the WMD's anywhere he wanted.

Torturing and humiliating innocent people? Torture? Where? Humiliating? Awwww, we're sorry Mr Sadaam loyalist. You supported an evil dicatator who cut off hands, but we didn't mean to make you feel bad.

Maybe we should send over some democrats to help them regain their self esteem.

 

[CLCAP]

How funny of you to disregard the govenment approved report that 60 - 90 % of them were INNOCENT!! (Red Cross says 80-90%) Also - some have apparently been killed (one being a fromer general) - but hey - who needs the geneva convention when you are a superpower right? I guess putting someones head under water and giving them the impression that they will die if they don't comply falls under playfulness. So does strapping electrodes to someone putting a hood over their face and telling them that they will be electrecuted if they step off. I am not by any means saying that there are no worse means of torture and that some people have no qualms about using it on our people - but we pride ourselves in being above that.

And yes! God has a plan for everyone but nowhere in the revelation does it say for YOU to interpret it. The God I know wants you to love other people - give and not take - (does Thau Shall NOT kill ring a bell?? - how about turn the other cheek?) It's pretty obvious at this time that Sadam (as evil of a person as he was) did not even remotely pose a threat to us - and if we thought so before and the intel was wrong - well fess up to it. Sounds VERY hypocritical to me.

Wasn't it great when out biggest topic was the Presidents sexlife?

 

[Timebuilder]

How funny of you to disregard the govenment approved report that 60 - 90 % of them were INNOCENT!! (Red Cross says 80-90%) Also - some have apparently been killed (one being a fromer general) - but hey - who needs the geneva convention when you are a superpower right?

"Government approved?" That's a good thing? Who approved it? What did they know? The Red Cross? They are experts on who is innocent of something? Really?

The Red Cross is an expert on blood donations, blankets, and medicine. Guilt or innocence? No. Sorry. I reject that ability as having any credibility where they are concerned.

I guess putting someones head under water and giving them the impression that they will die if they don't comply falls under playfulness.

That qualifies as torture for you? I am jealous of your naïveté.

And yes! God has a plan for everyone but nowhere in the revelation does it say for YOU to interpret it.

Not true. The individual believer is to read and interpret on his own using simple guidelines of common sense. Very little is unclear in scripture, and where an idea seems difficult to understand, there are those who have studied on far deeper levels to suggest, not dictate, a better understanding. The reason we have His word is so that everyone can know what it is, not for a central authority to have some special insight as chosen prophets to interpret what God says.

A while back someone pointed out a little cult that handles snakes and drinks poison because the Bible mentions it. Does this mean that it is a directive, something that SHOULD be done? No. It is an illustration of God's power and faithfulness to us.

The God I know wants you to love other people - give and not take - (does Thau Shall NOT kill ring a bell?? - how about turn the other cheek?) It's pretty obvious at this time that Sadam (as evil of a person as he was) did not even remotely pose a threat to us - and if we thought so before and the intel was wrong - well fess up to it. Sounds VERY hypocritical to me.

Actually, it's "thou shalt not murder," and that's a BIG difference. God grants civil authority the power to decide and deliver justice, just as He allowed the Romans to deliver their "justice" to Him. If His crucifixtion had been "wrong" or "illegal" He would not have permitted Himeself to be a participant. His death authenticated the right of Man, via his civil government to demand and deliver capital punishment. This covers the right to use an army, too.

How do you judge a threat to us? I'm not at all concerned that he was a threat. The intel showed he was, and we gave him time to hide or export anything he wanted to keep from us. While we waited to pacify the Europeans who had fueled his regime, he had time to clean house.

As I said, we had ample reason to go in without ANY WMD's.

Wasn't it great when out biggest topic was the Presidents sexlife?

Remember what happened when that WAS the topic? Clinton launched cruise missles and the headline changed to one he was more comfortable with, one that might help save his "legacy."

Sorry, Bill.

 

[CLCAP]

In Matthew 5:21-26 Jesus amplifies the meaning of the sixth commandment. He brings out that to commit murder means more then just killing someone, it means having an angry and unforgiving attitude towards them. The apostle John elaborates on this by writing that to hate someone is the same as murdering them (1 John 3:15). Murder like all sin, beginnings in the human mind (Matthew 15:18-19; Mark 7:20-23) it starts as a thought, in this case hatred, which leads to the action of murder (James 1:13-15; 4:1-3). The opposite of hating someone is loving them, we should even love our enemies (Matthew 5:43-48), seeking not revenge, but looking for ways to help them (Romans 12:17-21).

Yep.....that's exactly what most here want us to do!

And how about Matthew 5:9

Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

 

[Timebuilder]

I don't hate them.

I hate what they have done, what they do, and what they want to do.

Murder includes the concept of the unauthorized and unjust taking of life. You and I can only take a life without the structure of civil authority unless our own life or that of another is in danger.

That certainly is the case with terrorism.

 

[ATL2CDG]

Murder includes the concept of the unauthorized and unjust taking of life. You and I can only take a life without the structure of civil authority unless our own life or that of another is in danger.

And what scripture specifies these concepts?

As far as I know, the scriptures do not differentiate between 'kill' and 'murder'. The commandment is 'Thou shall not kill', not 'Thou shall not kill.... (fine print)...'

 

[CLCAP]

So do you love the terrorists? (Matthew 5:43-48)...and how about you attitude towards people that do not want a war that was based on false premises? (Matthew 5:9) (see quote in my last post)

 

[Dizel8]

Hard to control the media and the public, when you cannot control the pictures or the words.

Obviously, Rummy is none to pleased with the release of the prison pictures or the release of the picture of caskets of our brave service men and women.

It might make the public ask hard questions. Can't have that now, can we? Certainly not this close to election!

 

[Timebuilder]

So do you love the terrorists? (Matthew 5:43-48)...and how about you attitude towards people that do not want a war that was based on false premises? (Matthew 5:9) (see quote in my last post)

If you are talking about extending the love of Christ to all humans, the answer is yes. This is far different from what we normally consider to be "love" among ourselves, which carries a connotation of admiration and respect. That's a different animal entirely.

As I said, I do not believe we have here a war based on false premises. Sadaam broke the peace agreement. That's all that was needed.

It might make the public ask hard questions. Can't have that now, can we? Certainly not this close to election!

Many don't know the rhyme about maintaining security during wartime: "loose lips sink ships." No one is saying that wrongdoing should not be punished, but lets be honest here. A democrat president whould not be getting heat from a frustrated press over some pictures of naked men.

It's strictly a political agenda at work.

If hard questions are to be asked, then why were't these prisoners being interrogated with more forcefulness?

 

[Dizel8]

Left wing conspiracy, right wing conspiracy. Always a conspiracy, isn't it.

 

[Dubya]

Obvious?

quote: cclap
"It's pretty obvious at this time that Sadam (as evil of a person as he was) did not even remotely pose a threat to us - and if we thought so before and the intel was wrong - well fess up to it."

This is obvious...how? Go back and look at the comments made by almost ALL of the Dems prior to our invasion. I don't see how you can assert that there is anything obvious about what was and is going on over there.

W

 

[jarhead]

Timebuilder,

For you to state that the events in Abu Ghriab were just pictures of naked men, is for you to deny the reality that took place there. Pictures of naked men conjures up an image of someone in the doctors office getting their annual physical exam. The photos I've seen show torture and inhumane treatment.

I've seen pictures of a man handcuffed to a railing bent over in an extreme position, hooded, and reported to have been in this agonizing position for days. I've seen photos of German Shepard dogs with barred teeth in a man's face. I've seen video of guards striking a shackled and hooded prisoner to the ground,while other guards watch in apparent amusement. I could go on and on.

You destroy any credibility you might have, when you understate the reality to a degree that makes you look like you are intentionally misleading folks. I'm not blind, and I don't think you are either. These were not just naked men. They were naked men being beaten and tortured. You profess to be such an advocate of the teachings of Christ. So, I ask you, WWJD if He saw this stuff going on in Abu Ghriab?

 

[Timebuilder]

Left wing conspiracy, right wing conspiracy. Always a conspiracy, isn't it.

No, it's a matter of getting the job done, the job we are there to do. There are already procedures in place for dealing with soldiers who step outside the boundaries of policies and orders. The photos, in this case, were brought to light by a disgruntled father. Both he and his son should be arrested for sharing confidential information that could undermine the war effort and bring aid and comfort to the enemy.

Those who stepped outside the boudaries should be investigated, if that is what happened. Thats for the experts to investigate, and reporters and congressmen are not the experts.

The motivation of the press is to make themselves appear to be champions of fairness and to sell advertisiing, and to support ideas and events that will bring their friends back to power. That isn't a "coonspiracy," it's a part of human nature.

All you need to be able to see a good illustration of this is to read the ramblings of the democrats on the 9-11 comission as they made speeches and asked rhetorical questions instead of asking questions of witnesses, and also things like telling Rudy Giuliani that a troop of boy scouts could have done a better job of coordinating response efforts on 9-11. That isn't evidence of seeking the truth, it's the evidence of their agenda.

It doesn't make it a "conspiracy," it's evidence of desperation.