Peer Level Wages: MESA and Comair...

[On Your Six]

What I don't like is the arrogance coming from many Comair and ASA pilots on this forum. The Delta solution should come from all Delta constituencies - that's my point... This peer discussion can be applied to both the mainline and the regional pilots and nobody should forget that becuase both groups are paid quite well compared to their peers...

I ain't no management crony - I am a furloughee myself who can't stand the non-team players on this forum... Sure, we all know that the environmnet has changed BIG TIME and wages will decline, but people shouldn't slam other peoples' hard-fought, negotiated wages unless they look in the mirror first at their own wage levels vs. their peers'. If you think about it, nobody should feel secure about their current wage levels - thanks to MESA....

That's the point...

 

[BlackCoffee]

Who is arrogant?

 

[General Lee]

He sounds pi$$ed, not arrogant. His situation doesn't afford him arrogance.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Otto]

why should the Delta mainline pilot group be the ONLY labor group to contribute to a solution?
ASA and Comair pilots are paid very high relative to their CRJ peers at MESA and CHQ, etc.... It's true. Comair and ASA pilots think they are immune - and that is FAR FROM THE TRUTH... Watch as any future RJ growth is outsourced to Skyway, CHQ and others with cheaper wage levels. The wage spiral will continue to everyone's detriment...

On Your Six,
I think the difference comes down to a liveable wage. If you ask the average joe on the street, I think he/she would be shocked at what pilots at Mesa make and would probably say the amount CMR/ASA pilots make is more in line with what all RJ pilots should make. Ask them about DAL mainline and you will get quite a different response (they will say OVERPAID). We're making money and we're profitable...profits that already pay for mainline pilots big fat paycheck and pension...why should we have to give anymore? As to all these accusations that managment makes us look profitable...they're never backed up with anything factual. Show me some numbers and I'll listen.
As to CMR's and ASA's immunity...I can assure you that most of us don't feel immune and many feel it's just a matter of time before Delta is bankrupt and they come after us as well. If that's the case, so be it. I just wish DCI would stop the B/S with what they say and what they do. FOR EXAMPLE...they say future growth will go to the cheapest but they give the lions share of the 'growth aircraft' to ASA who will have at least Comair's cost and probably more. I'm happy for ASA but it makes no sense. WTF?!
Otto

 

[DDpaysoff]

You people are managment's wet dream. Why do you want us to take a paycut, to give management more incentive to fly RJ's on mainline routes? Then you will come back and say it is becasue we do it cheaper. When I get paid per seat what you do, then we can talk.

 

[Ty Webb]

Why is no one pointing out the obvious here?

Delta mainline guys are arguing with Delta DCI guys about who should take a pay cut? Boy, management may not have done much right lately, but they sure have you guys at each others' throats, doing their job for them.

Seems to me the only way you are going to get out of this mess is to work together. Your company will benefit by having the ability to put the right airplane on the right route for the right market.

I know that, on one end, you have some Delta guys who don't want to merge lists for whatever stupid reason (and I've heard them all) and on the other hand, you have a few senior Comair guys who are living in some sort of equally altered state of reality, but by and large, it seems pretty obvious that you should staple the d@mn lists, put up some fences to keep the grandpa's at Comair happy, and give the furloughees first crack at any newhire position, with the ability to return to their previous assignment when they are recalled.

Call a press conference, offer the company a package where they get a 20% cut for DAL mainline pilots, the ASA guys get the Comair contract with no strike, and the above-referenced list merger, with the phasing out of the scope (the public hates RJ's anyway, and Grinstein knows it). Put the ball in the company's court, with all the big investment firms and other shareholders watching, and give 'em 48 hours to either take it or concede that they have no real interest in anything other than Chapter 11 . . . . and sit back and watch.

But, I am just some dummy at AirTran.

 

[General Lee]

DDpaysoff,

I don't think SIX is a management person---just someone who is sick of hearing it "both ways." He said he constantly hears Comair and ASA people blaming the Delta pilots for having such a large pay difference between their peers (UA and AA), when the same could be said about Comair and ASA(maybe not so much) compared to regionals with equivalent size--like MESA. I don't think it should be that drastic, but he does bring up a point about the bitc_ing. I know that I personally hope we over here get some sort of cuts---but not draconian cuts only for the pilots....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BoilerUP]

Call a press conference, offer the company a package where they get a 20% cut for DAL mainline pilots, the ASA guys get the Comair contract with no strike, and the above-referenced list merger, with the phasing out of the scope (the public hates RJ's anyway, and Grinstein knows it). Put the ball in the company's court, with all the big investment firms and other shareholders watching, and give 'em 48 hours to either take it or concede that they have no real interest in anything other than Chapter 11 . . . . and sit back and watch.

But, I am just some dummy at AirTran.

You may just be a dummy at AirTran, but I think that would be an excellent power play on the part of DALPA and the ASA/CMR MECs. Make it a huge spectacle of a press conference, complete talk about all the $$$ Delta would save by combining seniority lists, avoiding a potential ASA strike, and changing scope to allow the airplane size to match demand. Help the company out, help the furloughs out, help yourselves out all while dang near forcing the company to accept your proposal because of the publicity it would recieve. It could be a watershed moment in ALPA's history.

Only if the politics were that simple...

 

[General Lee]

It has been suggested before, and I don't know if Dalpa would do that. Many have asked why Dalpa doesn't just come out to the press and say "Hey, we are willing to give up $300 million a year and managment won't take it....." Someone then told me that if we did that, then that $300 million mark would be the STARTING point if we ever went Chap 11 with the judge....It is a big game of chicken---and it is ridiculous.

Ty,

I don't think there is anyone saying we at mainline shouldn't take a pay cut. We all know that I believe. We are just trying to figure out the number or percentage. I think the guy who started this thread was mad at the DCI gallery who like to throw in their opinions on how much of a difference in pay we make compared to our peers---when they themselves make a lot more than their own peers. Very interesting dialog indeed.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Minor league]

Good points on both sides. But lets compare apples to apples. Comparing ASA or COMAIR pay to Mesa is like comparing Delta to World or Mesa flying 737s.

DCI Peers are regionals like American Eagle, Sky West, Air Wisconsin, ACA, Horizon, Continental Express, etc.

United and American are good peer groups for Delta, because they are the top 3 airlines.

Mesa is not a peer.

Good luck to everyone.

 

[Ty Webb]

I know that, GL. I think you guys have reasonably concluded to give the company some relief, but they aren;t taking it, and they won't talk to ASA either, which is why I think you need to force their hand.

With the recent lowering of your debt rating to CCC+, blamed on pilot wages, it seems the company is trying to blame the pilots for everything, which is why I am advocating throwing down the gauntlet in full public view, and forcing them to "fish or cut bait".

TW

 

[DDpaysoff]

DDpaysoff,

I don't think SIX is a management person---just someone who is sick of hearing it "both ways." He said he constantly hears Comair and ASA people blaming the Delta pilots for having such a large pay difference between their peers (UA and AA), when the same could be said about Comair and ASA(maybe not so much) compared to regionals with equivalent size--like MESA. I don't think it should be that drastic, but he does bring up a point about the bitc_ing. I know that I personally hope we over here get some sort of cuts---but not draconian cuts only for the pilots....

Bye Bye--General Lee

I have personally not met one person at Comair that blames DAL pilots. Frankly, it really is none of our business. We have our own problems to deal with right now. I understand that you are the last ones holding up the bar in your group and we are the last ones in ours. The fact that AA is getting 7% back this summer is reason alone not to give in to managments 30% paycut proposal. I don't blame you guys at all.
What you do now may very well determine what kind of contract I walk into at a major (in about 10 years or so). Please understand we are more than happy to sit down at the table w/ Delta the problem is we can't. We are forced to negotiate w/ an entity that really has no power to get anything done. I'm just tired of all the finger-pointing. This is playing right into managments hands and showing them that the whipsaw is working. If we ever had all pilots agree on something collectively we could have a hell of a healthy airline with bright futures for all of us. Granted, we don't have much in our contract, but we do have about 1800 people who will fight like hell to keep what we do have, escpecially when it "appears" we are in the black.

 

[FDJ2]

United and American are good peer groups for Delta, because they are the top 3 airlines./B]

Well UAL is in Chapter 11 and AMR was on the court house steps when they voluntarily took a greater paycut than UAL did in BK when AA was threatened with BK. DAL is not in the same situation. Hence a DAL solution to a DAL problem makes more sense. I would say that a better peer group for DAL is NWA, and there the pay differential is between 11%-17%. The DALPA offer of a 13.5% paycut seems more than reasonable. Grinsteins insistance on a take it or leave Chapter 11 contract is not.

 

[chperplt]

Originally posted by chperplt...............What expenses of CMR/ASA is DAL paying? Is it in the 40-50 mil range per quarter?

FDJ2

Much of what you list as expense is a DAL expense. IF CMR/ASA were selling tickets on CMR/ASA, then I would expect them to absorb those expenses. With the exception of paying for ones own catering expense, everything else is the cost of business for DAL.

With or without CMR/ASA those costs are going to be there. Does CHQ or ACA pay DAL for passenger commissions or the cost of advertising or non fleet expense?

Does DAL advertise for CMR/ASA? I've never seen an ad that says fly CMR/ASA.. It says fly Delta. When you go to a kiosk and take care of business, you are taking care of business that adds to DALs bottom line.

If the cost of doing business was cheaper for DAL to pay another carrier to do its flying, there wouldn't be a CMR or ASA. The fact is that both of these companies are generating very nice profit statements for it's parent company, DAL.

 

[:-)]

FDJ2

Much of what you list as expense is a DAL expense. IF CMR/ASA were selling tickets on CMR/ASA, then I would expect them to absorb those expenses. With the exception of paying for ones own catering expense, everything else is the cost of business for DAL.

With or without CMR/ASA those costs are going to be there. Does CHQ or ACA pay DAL for passenger commissions or the cost of advertising or non fleet expense?

Does DAL advertise for CMR/ASA? I've never seen an ad that says fly CMR/ASA.. It says fly Delta. When you go to a kiosk and take care of business, you are taking care of business that adds to DALs bottom line.

If the cost of doing business was cheaper for DAL to pay another carrier to do its flying, there wouldn't be a CMR or ASA. The fact is that both of these companies are generating very nice profit statements for it's parent company, DAL.

Well,well, looks like we've found another business genius boys.

Hey Chopper, do you ever stop to think,..............disregard, I've vowed to never disagree with uninformed people.

Arrivaderci

 

[chperplt]

Since you're so informed, why don't you take me to school. Inform my dumb ass.

I guess if you had a solid thought in your head, you would have done that in your original post.

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2

Much of what you list as expense is a DAL expense. IF CMR/ASA were selling tickets on CMR/ASA, then I would expect them to absorb those expenses. With the exception of paying for ones own catering expense, everything else is the cost of business for DAL.

Chperplt, you are right, that is the expense of doing business, but it also points out that just because ASA/CMR are profitable, that does not mean they are profitable for DAL, since DAL must pick up the additional costs associated with getting those passengers on those RJs. Likewise, the mainline is very profitable, all the way up until you start adding all those additional expenses. Like I said, CMR and ASA only pay for their direct operating costs, but DAL picks up the rest of the bill.

You are also right about Chautauqua and Skywest, DAL also has to pick up that tab aswell, although DAL didn't sink $3B into buying Chautauqua or Skywest, so there is less of an issue over getting a return on investment or paying off that $3B debt. Just my hunch, but I suspect contracting out to independent small jet providers versus wholly owned might be more appealing going forward, since mainline carriers would prefer to reduce their debt and maintain their liquidity instead of adding more debt to the ledger. CAL spun off a WO'ed recently, it might not be a bad idea for DAL to do the same, particularly when the small jet lift is cheaper from the non wholly owned.

At the end of the day all the contract carriers can be profitable, but that doesn't mean they are profitable for DAL, since the cost of doing business is significantly higher than just direct operating costs.

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

FDJ2,
Could be mistaken, but didn't Delta buy some cash in that deal too (for Comair, that is)? Also -- as for ROI, Comair and ASA are assets, as you mentioned... which can be turned into profit, and have been grown since their purchase -- equity, so to say, for Delta. So, we really do have a different ball game here with regard to the contractors v. wholly owned's. In other words they didn't just buy a money pit.

I'm pretty sure Comair would also fair quite well independent from Delta. They did before. Interesting anyway, and probably just a matter of time before it actually does occur. Could be sooner than later... hmmm... I'd buy stock in that.

 

[Dash8301]

I congradulate the Comair and ASA for standing their ground and demanding to be paid fairly. Just beacuse the Mesa lowlife are willing to fly for free (actually they would probably pay to fly thier precious jet), doesn't mean the whole industry should stoop to thier levels. On Your Six just because your furloughed doesn't mean you should incourage lowballing everyone elses contract. You talk like comair guys are freaking billionaires. When in reality the waited for a very long time furloughed guys and hung in thier to improve the quality of life for thier pilots. People like you are the reason Mesa a*sholes get away with this S*@t in the first place.

 

[FDJ2]

as for ROI, Comair and ASA are assets, as you mentioned... which can be turned into profit, and have been grown since their purchase -- equity, so to say, for Delta. So, we really do have a different ball game here with regard to the contractors v. wholly owned's.

Pez, you make a good point. DAL has invested a great deal into ASA/CMR. CMR has seen 85% growth since its acquisition, not bad. If they were spun off DAL would get some equity out of its investment. I'm not sure if DAL would get all of its money back, but I'm sure DAL would get a good cash infusion. That might be something Grinstein will be looking at closely as he does his "strategic review." Is it better to buy or rent in these tough economic times? Renting small jet lift and getting some equity out of either ASA or CMR or both might be a smart play. It will be interesting to watch.