Peer Level Wages: MESA and Comair...

[BoilerUP]

[thread hijack]

ATR-DRIVR,

You fly CAA 172 into LEX regularly? I was instructing out of there last summer and heard you guys come and go alot. Always wondered how ya'll turned that long SOB around that close to the terminal on one engine

DAL has a few mainline jets that fly into LEX; last time I was there late they had both a 732 and MD88 overnighting. There also was an 88 that came in during the afternoon sometime, 3-4ish. I wonder if the loads to DFW will warrant an upgrade from CR2 to CR7 or 732/88 anytime soon...

Its good to know loads to back home are full...if the RJs are full and airlines upgrade to mainline jets, its GOOD for the community...

[/thread hijack]

 

[General Lee]

ATR-driver,

I think Boilerup is right about LEX---I think we do fly some 737-200s in there. I don't think a 737-200 could take off on the short PFN runway--especially in the Summer. That is why the ATR-72s are great---they carry a lot of people short distances for not a lot of money. I can see the CR7s eventually REPLACING the CRJ-50s--because of the extra revenue possible with an extra 20 seats---even though you add an extra stew also. But, there will probably be a need for 100 seaters eventually that would replace our 737-200s, and if we order a bunch I would like to see our furloughs get to them first. I am also sure that Dalpa will probably negotiate a lot lower rate for them (like they did for Delta Express 737s)---and it will become cost competitive.

Take care.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

BoilerUP,
I am not one of those who taxi around on 1 engine unless I am REAL light. What gets me is those guys doing that and having to make a right turn...very hard on the nose gear not to mention all the power it takes...

General,
Not sure what the G needs for length, thought it was long enough down there. Any ideas about the others?
I sure hope this shiite gets worked out. Would like to have a little longer employment plan.

 

[Sam Fisher]

You guys are all self-proclaimed Airline Economics Experts. Screw the CEO's....you guys should be running the airlines! I'm constantly amazed at how some pilots are so easily convinced by their own thoughts on how to "save their airline."

Sam

 

[Ace757]

I think the General could do a much better job then the people that are running the airline now.

 

[General Lee]

ATR-driver,

I know how you feel----trust me. I can't believe what has happened in the last 3 years (since 9-11). Unbelievable.

Ace757,

Thanks----and I will hire you and ATRdriver as my two senior VPs---but I can only offer you $500,000 each per year---and 1 million stock options too. Sorry, I hope you will accept my offer.....(and that girl on your avtar is our new senior secretary....)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[The_Russian]

General....

I agree, you have good thoughts on this subject.

Everyone,

Is all the RJ hype or trend slowly going to go away? It seems they just keep getting bigger, some as big as DC-9's. With that said, what is the point of running a 90-100 seat RJ when you could pull more revenue from a 717?

When it comes to pay, it seems that the airlines really havent done a good job of increasing the pay for a pilot who flys a 90 or 70 seat RJ as comared to a 50 seat RJ. What do you guys think?

"Gosh darm Jimmy, how many more fuse plugs can they put in that momma?!"

 

[350DRIVER]

It all comes down to negotiating between the two groups. Somehow those 1060 on the streets needs to get back to DAL. The RJ trend/expansion is not going away anytime soon but the growth will be limited by mainline. The idea is (or was) to replace mainline routes that were not profitable by smaller regional jet equipment that could turn a profit easier. There will have to be some balance in future expansion plans to limit the potential loss of mainline jobs.

what is the point of running a 90-100 seat RJ when you could pull more revenue from a 717?

Mesa can turn a profit much easier than a 73 or 75 on certain route(s). Look at the costs and compensation factor and load factor required to break even.

When it comes to pay, it seems that the airlines really havent done a good job of increasing the pay for a pilot who flys a 90 or 70 seat RJ as comared to a 50 seat RJ. What do you guys think?

You will only get what you negotiate for and management will not cave in when they can get another carrier to fly for less.. This is why many are anti-Mesa on this board. Increases in compensation is easier said than done, ala JO


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[Sam Fisher]

I think the General could do a much better job then the people that are running the airline now.

The General means well but his ideas illustrate how naive he truly is to airline economics. But since you believe he could do a better job, please enlighten us as to why...

Sam

 

[The_Russian]

There will have to be some balance in future expansion plans to limit the potential loss of mainline jobs.

I sure hope so. Not only do pilots want the pay, but the passengers want the comfort. Every time I get on an RJ I hear two or three people complaining about how small it is. My favorite one is, "Not one of those crop dusters!". I understand that people can't stop flying entirely. But, if RJs overrun the industry, will the flying public mildly revolt against airline travel. I'm sure that will never happen, however, they could express their pains through the media. And we as pilots know what happens when the media gets a hold on an airplane story.

Also, as more and more people need to fly, will RJs cause an ATC saturation? Will they have to build or convert smaller airports to reduce conjestion on major airports? At the same time they are mowing down fields all over the country and turning them into golf courses. Great planning for Sundays, but not for the future.

 

[350DRIVER]

Also, as more and more people need to fly, will RJs cause an ATC saturation? Will they have to build or convert smaller airports to reduce conjestion on major airports? At the same time they are mowing down fields all over the country and turning them into golf courses. Great planning for Sundays, but not for the future.

I think that present day we are already over saturated in some parts of this country under certain circumstances, even with the present number of aircraft in operation the delays when weather goes down at IAD, EWR, LGA, STL, etc, are no joy. I have also heard that the FAA is continuing to reduce staffing levels and they have put a halt to the classes in OKC so should leave for some interesting times ahead. I think you will continue to see a push for "expansion" at the current airports whenever that opportunity presents itself versus the building of "new" airports. I think some of learned a valuable lesson when they decided to build the "other" aiport in St. Louis that was suppose to solve many problems which in reality it did next to nothing to solve any problems.


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[BoilerUP]

Re: General....

With that said, what is the point of running a 90-100 seat RJ when you could pull more revenue from a 717?

A quick point.

There is NO SUCH THING as a 90-100 seat regional jet. The DC-9-15 seats what, 78 or so pax? How many seats did the F28 have? What about the 732 or F100? Now compare those with the Baby Bus (A318). Not a real big difference in seating capacity, when compared to the large RJs (CR9), EMB-190/195 and 717.

I don't think anybody can fault "regional" pilots for wanting to fly larger "regional" equipment like 70 seaters because it raises their overall pay and allows airlines to cover thinner routes with more appropriately sized aircraft. However, IMO anything CR9 and larger belongs at mainline, if only to keep wages for similar-size equipment up. Management may say "we can't afford mainline pilots for 100 seat planes, we need lower wage pilots to compete", and as long as there are pilots willing to fly similar size equipment for a C scale, the whipsaw will continue and they'll put those aircraft at the Connection/Express carriers. OTOH, it doesn't do any good if the majors price themselves out of being competitive, so middle ground will have to be attained.

I'm curious if Lowecur or any other lurkers out there have comparisons between the 717 and EMB-190. I've never flown on the 717, but it seems like the perfect aircraft for markets too thin for a 737 but too big for RJs. It would be nice to see companies order a few, but I don't know the economics of it all...

But as was stated before, its easy to be armchair airline executives when you don't have anything (like golden parachutes) at stake...

 

[doh]

I agree with one thing med flyer says. If our positions were reversed the delta guys would never take a pay cut. The delta guys should not agree to "peer level wages " though, because their airline is not in as bad a shape as the rest. Comair pilots are paid competetively with the rest of the industry, somebody has to be #1. The mesa guys could have negotiated more but chose to settle. You don't see the top paid airline exec taking a cut because it's not right for him to have more than "peer level wages " do you? Okay, enough random musings!

 

[wms]

Peer wages or not, the pay regional pilots make for the work we do is criminal, even at CA/ASA. The fact that some cave in to less is foolish. Dalpa should not be coercing us to lower the bar, but encouraging us to advance our pay. Instead they're trying to use us to ease their pain.

There is a difference between higher-than-peer pay that qualifies you for food stamps, and higher-than-peer pay that qualifies you for a summer home.

I'm not saying that DAL should take pay cuts, because they shouldn't; at least not what the company wants. What I am saying is I'm tired that the same mainline guys who say to our faces we should be making $75 instead of $60, want to throw us to the wolves.

 

[doh]

wms, well said.