Peer Level Wages: MESA and Comair...

[:-)]

Since you're so informed, why don't you take me to school. Inform my dumb ass.

I guess if you had a solid thought in your head, you would have done that in your original post.

tell you what dumb bum, rules are made to be broken, so I'll break my own just this once. I'll keep it simple for ya, eh. It take's a certain amount of money to put a passengers bum in a seat. Comair isn't spending it, Delta is. You can play politician and twist words all you want, but the truth remains, Delta subsidizes Comair.

arrivaderci

 

[General Lee]

Pez,

Easy now. You may be right that Comair COULD be spun off and given a 10 year agreement like Skywest. That could happen. But, for Comair to expand to other carriers--they would have to COMPETE for the business---which means they would have to become cost competitive. That means huge pay cuts and try to look like Chatauqua. Face it, some other Major may want to use you---but still make money off of you. And, if you did have a ten year agreement with Delta---you wouldn't be able to compete on your own---ala ACA and Independence vs the WORLD.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

General,
I realize there would be challenges. But, right now all of our aircraft are utilized heavily for Delta. We would have to expand to cover other flying, and expansion takes time. Delta would have a large stake in the operation, and would likely want to see a profit from it. That's way out there in the future though, but being spun-off is a realistic possibility that we, as pilots, must consider. Personally, I think we would do fine.

 

[General Lee]

Pez,

I never said you wouldn't do fine--I am sure you would. But, WE WILL ALL BEING MAKING LESS MONEY. That, I believe, is a realistic view of our collective futures.......I am not happy about that at all...

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[wil]

5 Year Capt rate for ASA should be 85.00 per hour, minimum. This is the rate I'm willing to negotiate from, no less. Work rules and trip rigs are a given. Comments?

 

[wil]

I forgot to mention that I have saved 8 months (and counting) of mortgage payments just in case. Save now!!
It might be time to nut up so I want to let my Brothers know if we need to be ready to walk .
The economy has turned around and we are making money. It is not our fault if Mainline is bleeding cash. But, we may be blamed due to Mainline's inability to deal with the truth. Their inability to be cost effective is not our problem.

 

[On Your Six]

The point of this entire thread was that if DAL mainline pilots will be potentially forced to accept "peer" level wages due to poor financial results attributed to lowsy management decisions, then the regional pilots should also be brought to "peer" level wages.

Peer to peer. Regardless, expect DAL management to be A LOT LESS GENEROUS with internal RJ growth in the future when so many low-cost alternatives exist. The bar has been lowered (thank you MESA) and everyone has noticed...

 

[BoilerUP]

The bar has been lowered (thank you MESA) and everyone has noticed...

Hasn't that horse long been beaten to death? The same could be argued at "mainline" about the raping the APA took from Carty, but at least it kept their company out of bankruptcy.

If DAL's industry peers are AMR and UAL, then CMR's peers are Skywest and ACA. Comparing Comair to Mesa is almost like comparing Delta to an LCC like AWA or AirTran, and that's an apples to oranges comparison.

Delta pilots are worth every penny they are able to negotiate, as are Comair's pilots. I believe if DALPA made a public presentation of just how much $$$ the company would save with an immediate 25% cut in pilot pay, Wall Street would eat it up. In return, ask for an equal reduction in management compensation, a contract extension and a deadline for return of all furloughees to Delta (mainline or DCI) flying. Demand a comprehensive plan from mgmt to return Delta to profitability and growth, and I think public opinion from within the financial world would put a fair amount of pressure on management to accept your offer.

I think long-term, DALPA has much more to gain from working with the WOs than fighting against them, and vice-versa. But what do I know.......

 

[DDpaysoff]

5 Year Capt rate for ASA should be 85.00 per hour, minimum. This is the rate I'm willing to negotiate from, no less. Work rules and trip rigs are a given. Comments?

I hope you guys realize how important ASA and Coex's new contracts are. We are about to go back to the food stamp days. That Ornstien guy must be a genius, look what he started.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

The point of this entire thread was that if DAL mainline pilots will be potentially forced to accept "peer" level wages due to poor financial results attributed to lowsy management decisions, then the regional pilots should also be brought to "peer" level wages.

This discussion has raged for some time now, and a question has been put to those of you who think like you do that "fair is fair" and "if we have to take a cut then they should too" and it has yet to be answered.

I put it to you(any of you who believe that is the answer here) again.

If what the Delta pilots seek(among other things) is an end to the outsourcing of "their" flying then is it not cutting off their noses to spite their face so to speak to insist upon lowering DCI costs ala pilot wages and thereby perpetuating the problem.

 

[nimtz]

I hope you guys realize how important ASA and Coex's new contracts are. We are about to go back to the food stamp days. That Ornstien guy must be a genius, look what he started.

Nah no genius. He's got guys flying for him who have both no balls and no clue what the future is for this profession. All he had to do was go for the anal rape and they took it in stride. Hopefully things will go different for Xjet. I'll sit out on strike until they take the airplanes away. F*ck it let the flight school kids have my job and my pay if that's all this profession will offer down the road. I really don't care.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

The silence from the "fair's fair" crowd is deafening.

 

[GogglesPisano]

I am an outsider in this here debate. However, since the CMR and ASA pilots can only negotiate with their respective managements, and their accounting books are closed (they are privately held -- owned by another company) the pilots should tell management to pound sand. There is no way management can convince them that ASA or CMR is on the brink of bankruptcy. That is all those pilots should be concened about.

As for the DAL pilots, they should worry about DAL, not what the pilots at CMR and ASA make. There is no operational integration, no seniority integration, separate lists. It is none of their business.

 

[Sam Fisher]

This is a ridiculous argument in my opinion.

Bottomline is this, gentlemen:

Delta pilots take X percentage pay cut and they still can pay their mortgage and feed their children (provided they aren't living beyond their means).

Comair pilots on the other hand take a similiar pay cut percentage-wise and they are on the WIC program and on food stamps. Since when is even $22,000 per year starting a fair wage? Even $70,000 to command a 50 passenger jet is lunacy but it is still better than the $55,000 that Mesa gets.

When does the madness stop? This isn't about "peer carriers." It is about raising the floor of compensation levels of this industry and maintaining a standard at the top end as well. Has zero to do with "peer carriers." That is a shallow and silly methodology by which to analyze this situation.

Newsflash Delta pilots: You want the Comair and DCI guys to be as well paid as possible so as to remove any financial incentive to use an RJ over a 737/MD80 on a route simply because the labor costs make it cheaper to operate that flight using small jets instead of larger ones.

Sam

 

[Heavy Set]

I tend to agree with On Your Six on this issue. It's true that Delta pilots are paid more than their peers at UAL and AA. Comair/ASA pilots are paid more than their peers at Mesa and Chautaqua. The pay difference for each group is the money left "on the table" that could help Delta's recovery. If one group is expected to reduce its costs TO PEER LEVEL, the other should do the same... That's perfectly logical for a parent company in a so-called death spiral - chapter 11 could force the issue anyway...

If you are a proponent of "peer" level wages for the mainline group, you can't have it both ways and not expect the regional group to maintain "above-peer" level wages. The urge to outsource to other cheaper carriers would be too great given the tight finanical situation (notice UAL and ACA situation)...

 

[Sam Fisher]

I tend to agree with On Your Six on this issue. It's true that Delta pilots are paid more than their peers at UAL and AA. Comair/ASA pilots are paid more than their peers at Mesa and Chautaqua. The pay difference for each group is the money left "on the table" that could help Delta's recovery. If one group is expected to reduce its costs TO PEER LEVEL, the other should do the same... That's perfectly logical for a parent company in a so-called death spiral - chapter 11 could force the issue anyway...

If you are a proponent of "peer" level wages for the mainline group, you can't have it both ways and not expect the regional group to maintain "above-peer" level wages. The urge to outsource to other cheaper carriers would be too great given the tight finanical situation (notice UAL and ACA situation)...

Heavy Set,

Are you aware what a 20% pay cut is to the Comair payroll? It would be $20 million back to Comair. Now Comair would have to funnel that savings back to Delta, with an amendment to their internal operating agreement. Either way, do you realize the magnitude of $20 million vs hundreds of millions that Delta is asking for from its pilots? Your argument doesn't hold water.

Sam

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

Heavy Set,
Management thanks you for promoting the whipsaw atmosphere. Good job, and keep up the good work.

 

[Caveman]

Comair and Delta and ASA are separate companies.

There is no operational integration.

If I wanted to be a part of DAL I must apply and interview like everyone else.

Sound familiar?

That's why CMR/ASA shouldn't have to take a pay cut.

 

[Heavy Set]

I am not an advocate for DAL's management and I am not in favor of huge pay cuts. Everything is negotiable. I am just pointing out to the Comair/ASA folks that their argument is the same as the mainline pilot argument - get it? It's the same rationale. Nobody wants a serious pay cut. However, the parent company is in financial trouble and cost cuts seem inevitalbe to compete better with AirTran, JetBlue and SWA.

You Comair guys are becoming defensive about preserving your incomes - just like General Lee. But wait - Mesa pilots are paid much less (maybe 20-30% less) than Comair and ASA pilots flying the same equipment. Senior American 767 pilots are also paid 20% less than their counterparts at Delta. Now you understand his point of view and why he becomes defensive - he is protecting his negotiated salary and the size of the eventual cuts.

The "absolute" size of the savings ($20 million vs. $200 million) is immaterial to management with regard to the two labor groups. They will be looking at things on a peer-to-peer level. Managers always compare things to industry averages. If you don't think DAL management will be looking for ways to reduce regional flight pay then you are smoking something. On Your Six is right about this one, potential Comair/ASA growth in the future will be determined on a cost basis with CHQ, Skyway and Skywest willing to do things cheaper.

I just think the expectations of peer-level wages for just one labor group is assinine and unrealistic....

 

[XRMEFLYER]

You know, I don't think that one regional pilot on this forum is a "proponent of peer level wages" for Delta or anyone else. What difference would it make to us? If anything we would like to see higher wages there on the off chance we should ever get to join them.

The question remains for those of you who feel that what is good for one is good for the other.

Would it not make DCI a more desirable alternative to "your" flying if our costs were to be lowered?