Peer Level Wages: MESA and Comair...

[On Your Six]

Seems like a lot of people are talking about peer-level wages - especially with regard to Delta and other troubled legacy carriers. I am NOT a part of the Delta "family," so I am looking from the outside. I am tired of listening to the bratty Comair/ASA pilots trying to push their views of massive paycuts in order to save their own a$$es. So, I have some questions:

Why shouldn't Comair and ASA pilots be paid what their peers at MESA are paid? Seems like everyone is attempting to make apples-to-apples comparisons here...

So, let's have Comair and ASA pilots agree to MESA levels while the mainline guys accept 30%+ cuts (to AA or UAL levels for comparable equipment)... That's only fair, right?

Why not MESA levels? You're leaving a lot of money on the table by not flying for MESA levels... Shouldn't Comair and MESA CRJ Captains be paid the same for the same equipment and same number of hours, etc.?

HELP ME UNDERSTAND why Comair pilots should be paid more than their counterparts flying the same equipment elsewhere... It's the same argument isn't it?

 

[bafanguy]

My highly-uneducated guess is : it's allegedly a free-market economy where every company ( or related group thereof ) is an individual case...and you get what you negotiate. Otherwise, there'd be one airline called "AMTrak Air". Won't work...

 

[General Lee]

On your six does come up with a good question, though. Sometimes certain DCI pilots like to compare us to our peers--without looking at their own comparisons. But, they also claim that they are the profitable ones at Delta---even though Delta pays for quite a bit of their expenses.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[MedFlyer]

Comair and ASA are profitable or at least that's what management says and that's what management reports to the government. Why should a profitable entity have to take concessions to save the unprofitable entity? Why not just fix the unprofitable entity and let the profitable entity keep making money. You know the old saying, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

If mainline was profitable and Comair/ASA were losing money, would DL pilots give concessions? Not a chance in the world. The only reason DL pilots want Comair/ASA to take concessions is to lessen their own load. They screwed up and now want someone else to pay for their mistakes. Sorry guys, you dug yourself into this hole and you can dig yourself out.

You signed a contract that allowed management to go hog wild with the RJ's and bury DL in debt. That was your choice and now you're paying for it.

You signed a contract that let DL outsource a ton of your international flying. That was your choice and now you're paying for it.

You signed a contract that gave the 70 seaters to DL Connection. That was your choice and now you're paying for it.

DL pilots love to complain about all these boneheaded management moves, but the funny thing is that that the DL pilots signed off on all these moves.

 

[ewrord]

Why aren't Delta pilots paid World Airlines rates? Besides, are Comair/ASA near bankruptcy? Although there holding company may be, thier own companies are not, and are posting quite healthy profits.

 

[On Your Six]

Here's the logic: Comair and ASA are owned by Delta. Delta, the parent company, is in financial trouble. Delta's mainline pilots are asked to make deep cuts to "peer" levels. Comair and ASA pilots are not paid at peer levels. Given that ASA and Comair are owned by the troubled parent, shouldn't ASA and Comair pilots also accept cuts to peer levels (MESA)?

Sure, you get what you negotiate. That is why the Delta mainline pilots are paid what they are paid. But now they are being asked to cut back on the negotiated amount partly because of financial problems created by a faulty management (good job Leo for hiring McKinsey to formulate your great strategies...).

So, I think Comair and ASA pilots would welcome cuts to peer levels given that they expect the same from the mainline pilots - both "owned" and "controlled" by the same parent company...

Doesn't that make sense? Let's pay everyone (mainline and regional) peer-level wages so that Delta (the parent company) can compete better and finally make money again... If not, I bet you that A LOT of the future growth will be outsourced to companies like Skyway and CHQ - either you are paid at peer-level wages or your growth will go to those who are paid those levels - that's the REALITY of the situation. Don't you agree?

 

[FDJ2]

Neither ASA or CMR pay all their expenses. They are only profitable because DAL makes them so and pays quite a few of the expenses other than direct operating costs. If only paying direct operating costs were the standard for profitability than DAL would be very profitable, but alas that is not the case.

 

[chperplt]

What expenses of CMR/ASA is DAL paying? Is it in the 40-50 mil range per quarter?

I see a lot of blanket statements about how DAL is supporting CMR and ASA but no specifics. How much money are we talking here?

Out of one side of your mouth you're saying that we should take Mesa wages to "help out", but the other side of the mouth says that the Mesa bottom feeders are destroying the industry. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Dutch]

Why shouldn't ASA or CMR pilots work for Mesa wages? Why shouldn't Mesa pilots work for ASA or CMR wages...it just depends on what direction you want the industry to move.

Dutch

 

[chperplt]

And why shouldn't Delta pilots work for US Air wages and benefits?

Because they shouldn't have to...

 

[On Your Six]

Obviously you should be paid what you negotiate - that's what unions are for... That is the reason why Comair pilots are not paid MESA wages right now. However, many Comair and ASA pilots seem h@ll bent on pushing "needed" cost cuts solely on the mainline pilots. There seems to be a constant comparison with AA and UAL wages - mainline pilots are the only labor group being hounded - not the FAs, not the mechanics, not the gate agents, not the regional pilots, not the management, etc., etc.,

Clearly, to be fair, all Delta labor groups should probably be paid what their peers make - using other people's logic... Heck, the airline is in a downward spiral according to managment. That being the case, Comair and ASA pilots should be paid MESA wages - we're talking about the same aircraft and the same hours aren't we?

What makes you think Comair and ASA will get any growth in the future when DAL can outsource future flying to regionals paying MESA wages? Get it? Say hello to more CHQ and Skyway flying in the future...

 

[XRMEFLYER]

They are only profitable because DAL makes them so and pays quite a few of the expenses other than direct operating costs.

Gross oversimplification.

Six,
I can't speak for the other DCI folks, but I for one am not for cutting anyone's pay. Just not willing to take a pay cut because someone else is going to. Fairness has nothing to do with it.

 

[ewrord]

Well if your gonna talk about ASA/ Comair at Mesa wages, why not at Gulfstream rates? And if that, then why shouldn't Delta pilot's be paid at Southeast Airlines rates? Percentage wise, whose pilot group is closer to the average mean wages of their respective pilot groups? I would have to say the Delta pilots are. Besides, I would also make the case that Delta pilots are easily paid livable wages, whereas Comair/ASA FO's could not afford a cut to maintain a liveable wage. In addition, which group forms the largest percentage of labor expense at DAL? Certainly the combined ASA Comair pilots do not even approach 1/4 of the cost of the DAL group.

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

Well I don't know what airline Medflyer is working for -- or On Your Six, either.

I do know that I work for one of the two that's got On Your 6's panties in a wad. Personally, I don't really want the General and his boys to take a huge cut. I think he's on the right track -- give what Delta needs and nothing more -- god knows, we have to read it over and over ad naseum.

So, Six --

I am tired of listening to the bratty Comair/ASA pilots trying to push their views of massive paycuts in order to save their own a$$es.

Since you don't have a dog in this fight... why the blatant hostility? Really, freedom of speech and open forum noted, do you sit at home and get ticked off at CMR/ASA pilots b/c of the comments of a guy I don't even think is a pilot for one of us (Medflyer -- he's been the guy battling you on this)? Just like kicking a little dust around? Playing the bully? Don't confuse one person's comments for the whole of the pilot group.

When ASA negotiates their new contract this year they will get more than Comair -- or do you think Delta can handle another strike in their weak financial position?

Sincerely,
bratty DCI pilot

 

[General Lee]

On Your Six's profile says he is furloughed and currently flying part time on a Global Express......take a look Pez.

And, I am glad that you agree with me---because I think we are taking the careful road here---but we want to help the company. We just don't want to be taken in the process---and I think that is smart. Management is whipsawing us (the pilots) against everyone--making us look greedy--even though we are willing to negotiate early. Amazing. Thank you for your support, and I hope we do eventually come to an agreement.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[On Your Six]

Hey, I don't have any skin in this game. I admit that Delta mainline wages are probably a bit high and should be reduced somewhat - and I think that DAL mainline pilots are ready to help and negotiate. Delta managment appears unwilling and is running the airline into the ground to FORCE changes...

However, I have noticed an arrogance on these boards from Comair and ASA pilots - it seems to be an incessant "blame" game with the mainline pilots targeted. Let's think about this, why should the Delta mainline pilot group be the ONLY labor group to contribute to a solution? Afterall, if anyone on this board (including MedFlyer, Extreme Flyer, Fins, etc.) was a current Delta mainline pilot, wouldn't they also fight for their wage levels? If you were in their shoes, how would you respond? Didn't you guys at Comair negotiate your own wages in good faith? How would you feel if your wages were explicitly targeted and forced to comply with the threat of bankruptcy?

Sure, the LCCs and the crap economy have changed the game. Clearly Delta's current operating expenses are way too high to compete effectively with JetBlue, Southwest, AirTran, etc. Nobody disputes the needs for cost cutting... However, it is pure arrogance to assume that DAL mainliners should bare the brunt alone given that ASA and Comair pilots are paid very high relative to their CRJ peers at MESA and CHQ, etc.... It's true. Comair and ASA pilots think they are immune - and that is FAR FROM THE TRUTH... Watch as any future RJ growth is outsourced to Skyway, CHQ and others with cheaper wage levels. The wage spiral will continue to everyone's detriment...

 

[FDJ2]

Gross oversimplification.

But accurate.

 

[FDJ2]

What expenses of CMR/ASA is DAL paying? Is it in the 40-50 mil range per quarter?

Well let me see, last year

DAL paid :

$211M in passenger commissions

$325M in passenger service

$479 in selling expenses

$500M in non fleet expenses (kiosks and such)

$1.2B charge to depreciation

$886M to contracted services

$732M interest expenses


just to name a few expenses ASA/CMR don't contribute to.

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

Six,
You speak like a true management cronie. "Just watch as your flying gets handed off to cheaper labor -- better take pay cuts -- better sell out for growth." People with your mentality are THE PROBLEM.

No one is encouraging Delta mainline pilots to take such a massive pay cut that they'll end up with the equivalent of their bottom rung peers. They're just defending their own position. I think most of the regional pilot posts I read say -- "hey, we don't have that much to give, he11, we just got a livable wage."

I've noticed an arrogance and bully tone from your posts too -- take a look in the mirror buddy. You're spouting off like it's going to effect your wallet. You're falling into that typical whipsaw trap -- and you don't even work for the company.

Delta pilots will do what they need, their union will see to it that they don't get taken. And no, they shouldn't give up the farm. They should do what is needed. Period. The fact that Grinstein is not actively pursuing negotiations is alarming. It will be on his shoulders if Delta declares chap 11.

 

[General Lee]

Pez,

I think you are thinking clearly here, and you and I know that managment will come after all of us eventually for money. I think On YOUR SIX's tone is a tad bit "blunt"---but from his description I think he is mad about the whole situation he is in. Who would have thought any of this could have happened pre-9-11? Those 19 high-jackers really affected a lot of people (including killing many). The dumping of the economy after that (actually starting prior to 9-11) didn't help, and the game has changed. We all know that. Now, will we be suckered into taking all of the hits in pay and the rest of the company getting little changes? I doubt that. Hopefully Grinstein will come to the table, and I bet he will get an earfull at the share holder's meeting late this month.

Bye Bye--General Lee