Pbi Incident?????????

[WrknStff]

Never trust a mechanic unless he's willing to fly with you on the test flight I'd think.

 

[Santa Clause]

Didn't have anything to do with a mechanical irregularity. Unqualified crew fully stalled the aircraft intentionally and lost control of the aircraft. Scared themselves.

 

[ultrarunner]

Didn't have anything to do with a mechanical irregularity. Unqualified crew fully stalled the aircraft intentionally and lost control of the aircraft. Scared themselves.

You've GOT to be kidding, right?

 

[minimums]

Didn't have anything to do with a mechanical irregularity. Unqualified crew fully stalled the aircraft intentionally and lost control of the aircraft. Scared themselves.

Unqualified????? Please explain!

 

[hawkercpt]

At simulfite

we are trained to take the aircraft to am imminent stall and recover, not to a complete one. The acceptance "test" flight after the removal of 2 or more TKS panels is a stall series. Per the maint. manual it is to be a complete stall. Thats ok for your average line pilot to do, but if something goes wrong, as it may have here, it could get real hairy real quick for someone who has never done a stall in a swept wing aircraft. Especially if one wing breaks first.
For years we have been telling them, the company, its a bad idea. I for one have volunteered multiple time to go to Test Pilot school, at their expense of course. Then they could pay me test pilot wages and I would do all of the MX flight they had, but until then...I'm not doing it. Lots of other guys feel this way too.

 

[Grizz]

hawkercpt -

I was a military FCF pilot in all series of aircraft I flew and I have to agree with you. Doing a full maintenance check flight deserves special pay because things go wrong beyond anyone's reasonable expectations. It's a lesson that I learned a bunch of times but twice it almost cost me the ultimate price.

1) We picked up a EC-130 at a BHM - a depot level maintenance facility. They had been doing a center wing-box replacement mandated by the AF and Lockheed. I took off and within 30 seconds the scanner (loadmaster) was screaming, "Get this airplane on the ground!" on the intercom. I told the engineer to go take a look-see as I pulled a closed. About 30 seconds later, the engineer is on intercom, "Get this airplane on the ground!" My engineer and scanner tell me they're hearing very loud popping noises in the back. I turned base, landed the beast, and stopped straight ahead on the runway.

Come to find out, the maintenance facility was using the wrong size rivets on the center wing box and the noise they were hearing were rivets popping loose in flight. Another 3-4 minutes and the whole center wing box would have come undone. As far as I remember from basic aeronautics, wings are not optional in flight. Many beers were consumed that night by all.

2) A few years later, we were doing a complete FCF stall series on a B-1900 after two primary flight surface replacements. A complete stall series includes taking the aircraft to stall and determining the airspeed at stall warning, airspeed at full stall, seeing which way it breaks, etc. One of the props was rigged significantly differently than the other and it hit the stops pretty much at exactly the wrong time and it induced a serious spin. I can tell you that the spin recovery in a B-1900 isn't anywhere near as pretty as it is in a T-37. I was doing training for two instructors upgrading to FCF status on that flight and the pilot not on headset during that maneuver made the comment - "It's a good thing I wasn't on headset because you'd have heard me screaming like a little girl."

After abject lesson #2, I decided that I'd had enough of maintenance check flights. Thank goodness, I only had about 6 months to go before I retired and never faced that situation again.

I've picked the Citation X up at a service center a couple of times with a maintenance check flight due but so far it hasn't been anything other than pressurization or something like that. The moment it steps up into something serious - sorry Charlie...get someone else to play Race Bannon.

 

[Captain Overs]

Corporate jet mishap rates are spiraling upward. Recent crashes and incidents, Challenger in Montrose, Gulf Stream in Eagle, Gulf Stream in Teterboro, Challenger in Teterboro, give the FAA reason to take pause and wonder about certificate holder compliance. All charter and FRACTIONAL (yes, NJA/NJI also) operators are under the microscope. Every aspect of the operation; scheduling, duty regulation compliance, training, safety oversight, maintenance, etc is all under close scrutiny. The FEDS are going to give each company just enough rope to hang itself. The strength of the system relies on the integrity of the system. The integrity of the system relies upon the integrity of the individual operator. I strongly suggest that we, as fractional pilots, cover our six. Guys, if it does not pass the smell test, do not do it. Life is too short and while we all need a job, we do not necessarily need this job.

That's because you guys don't fly enought to stay as skilled as you should. But more importantly you're hiring "gear throwers" to sit in the right seat. You get what you pay for!

 

[Dep676]

That's because you guys don't fly enought to stay as skilled as you should. But more importantly you're hiring "gear throwers" to sit in the right seat. You get what you pay for!

WTF over. We don't fly enough to stay skilled. Flying 60 to 80 hours a month isn't flying enough????????????

 

[walkoshame]

Oh sh!t then I'm in big trouble only flying about 50

 

[GVFlyer]

we are trained to take the aircraft to am imminent stall and recover, not to a complete one. The acceptance "test" flight after the removal of 2 or more TKS panels is a stall series. Per the maint. manual it is to be a complete stall. Thats ok for your average line pilot to do, but if something goes wrong, as it may have here, it could get real hairy real quick for someone who has never done a stall in a swept wing aircraft. Especially if one wing breaks first.
For years we have been telling them, the company, its a bad idea. I for one have volunteered multiple time to go to Test Pilot school, at their expense of course. Then they could pay me test pilot wages and I would do all of the MX flight they had, but until then...I'm not doing it. Lots of other guys feel this way too.

I'm with you, pardner. Gulfstream Flight Test doesn't do full aerodynamic stalls unless a stall chute is installed. It's okay to go to the pusher without a chute on the jet and that is done routinely on production and completion test flights as well as third party evaluations or technical evaluations.

Stall characteristics vary greatly even among aircraft from the same mnufacturer. For example, you can't make a Lear 31 stall - the ventral fins keep pushing the nose down before critical angle of attack is reached, but on the Lear 35 you need 400 lbs of ballast on the potty seat and a stall chute before you even attempt a stall.

I don't know anything about Hawker stall characteristics, but you can deduce a lot from it's installed equipment. If there is inadequate aerodynamic warning of an impending stall a shaker is required. If the jet rolls more than 20 degrees when it stalls a pusher is required. The great danger, of course, in doing full stalls in swept wing jets is that the nose will pitch-up in the stall and the wing will blank out the tail making you unable to get the nose down to return to controlled flight.

GV