Pbi Incident?????????

[some_dude]

Stall characteristics vary greatly even among aircraft from the same mnufacturer. For example, you can't make a Lear 31 stall - the ventral fins keep pushing the nose down before critical angle of attack is reached, but on the Lear 35 you need 400 lbs of ballast on the potty seat and a stall chute before you even attempt a stall.

Lear 35s are routinely stalled after the 12 year inspection or any removal/reinstall of the leading edges. A forward CG is a good idea, although I've never seen one with a stall chute (unless the drag chute counts!).

The Learjet maintenance manual requires a test pilot who meets certain training requirements (and I don't think there are that many guys who qualify). Sounds like the Hawker should as well.

 

[GVFlyer]

I don't disagree with the basic premise (that the test pilot on these flights should be trained and qualified for full stalls). However, Lear 35s are routinely stalled after the 12 year inspection or any removal/reinstall of the leading edges, without a stall chute. A forward CG is a good idea, however.

The Learjet maintenance manual requires a test pilot who meets certain training requirements (and I don't think there are that many guys who qualify). Sounds like the Hawker should as well.

I have only done full stalls in Lear 35s in concert with the certification of the military version of the aircraft and the test articles were prepared as I stated for stall testing.

GV

 

[CUEBOAT]

What exactly is a stall chute? How does it work? Does it just a weather vane effect?

 

[slowto250]

GV,

Great post. Might even keep some weekend test pilot from digging themselves an impact crater. The average biz jet is not your father's Cherokee six ;-)

 

[GVFlyer]

Stall chute

What exactly is a stall chute? How does it work? Does it just a weather vane effect?

The least desireable stall characteristic any jet can have is to pitch-up when it stalls, the reason being that the wing can blank out the horizontal stabilizer causing a loss of pitch control and the ability to get the nose down to fly out of the stall. A stall chute, when deployed, gets the nose down to reestablish airflow over the tail and subsequent pitch control. It is then cut away.

During Global Express development while demonstrating recovery from unaccelerated aerodynamic stalls with a FAA test pilot at the controls the jet pitched-up and could not be returned to controlled flight without deploying the stall chute. This is precisely what occurred during Challenger 600 development with the exception that Bombardier test pilots were at both cockpit stations and that they could not get rid of the stall chute after getting the nose down. Subsequently, there was insufficient thrust available for sustained flight and controlability was suspect. Two of the crew were able to bail out and sustained severe injuries. The remaining pilot and flight test engineer perished with their craft. The surviving test pilot now works in the Atlanta ACO.

GV

 

[SafetyTheSeat]

Gee G-V........

The Hawker is the only aircraft not listed in your resume... You better go get that type.......

Hey how big is that watch of yours?

 

[p3hawk]

Hawker stall characteristics

Last year, summer as a matter of fact. I did the same profile on the 800XP. It was a 48 month insp. They pull ed all the leading edge panels off for a corrosion insp.

after the leading edges are put back on they do a stall vane check to ensure that the warnings and shaker go off. I tested this particular aircraft throughout the week. it was failing the pusher during all configuration events and going into a stall. My F/O and I fully briefed ourselves on what actions will be taken if and when we departed controlled flight. Pilots need to take into account what their experience levels are and their knowledge of their aircraft. I think Clint Eastwood said it best, "Man's got to know his limitations" (Magnum Force).

 

[hawkercpt]

My F/O and I fully briefed ourselves on what actions will be taken if and when we departed controlled flight. Pilots need to take into account what their experience levels are and their knowledge of their aircraft(Magnum Force).

You and your FO have done full stall recoveries in a Hawker? Any swept wing aircraft? Gotten out of flat spin?

I understand you've briefed it, but when push comes to shove, if your not properly trained for it...don't do it. If you happen to live through the event and the FAA comes knockin at your door, the company isn't going to be there for you.

Airlines have test pilots for such flights. They want to run us like an airline, then so be it.

 

[ultrarunner]

Man, flying is inherently dangerous enough. The only sweptwing jet I have ever stalled is the Falcon 10, and that's pretty much a non-event, as it really doesn't stall...just decends while you fly it with the stick full-aft. Actually pretty cool.

But anything else, I'll leave it to the test pilots. That's why there is test-pilot school.

 

[GVFlyer]

Gee G-V........

The Hawker is the only aircraft not listed in your resume... You better go get that type.......

Hey how big is that watch of yours?

How big is that brain of yours?

GV

 

[p3hawk]

Hawker stall characteristics

If the stall triggers are installed properly, the aircraft will stall without any violent uncontrollability. During the event the stall "A" "B" valve light should illuminate followed by immediate pusher. if that dosen't occur we would then push the nose over ourselves. and just about the same time the wing useally the left would dump. but the recovery would still be the same.

 

[NJAFracPilot]

Gee G-V........

The Hawker is the only aircraft not listed in your resume... You better go get that type.......

Hey how big is that watch of yours?

Thanks for your intelligent contribution to this discussion. What's the matter - no qualifications or just ashamed of the ones you have? Sounds like jealousy to me.

 

[Texasskicker]

Words of wisdom from the reaper

Corporate jet mishap rates are spiraling upward. Recent crashes and incidents, Challenger in Montrose, Gulf Stream in Eagle, Gulf Stream in Teterboro, Challenger in Teterboro, give the FAA reason to take pause and wonder about certificate holder compliance. All charter and FRACTIONAL (yes, NJA/NJI also) operators are under the microscope. Every aspect of the operation; scheduling, duty regulation compliance, training, safety oversight, maintenance, etc is all under close scrutiny. The FEDS are going to give each company just enough rope to hang itself. The strength of the system relies on the integrity of the system. The integrity of the system relies upon the integrity of the individual operator. I strongly suggest that we, as fractional pilots, cover our six. Guys, if it does not pass the smell test, do not do it. Life is too short and while we all need a job, we do not necessarily need this job.

Worth ponderin, well said words of wisdom for an early morning reflection.

What was the outcome of this mishap.... Any more information?

Tx.

 

[CatYaaak]

Man, flying is inherently dangerous enough. The only sweptwing jet I have ever stalled is the Falcon 10, and that's pretty much a non-event, as it really doesn't stall...just decends while you fly it with the stick full-aft. Actually pretty cool.

But anything else, I'll leave it to the test pilots. That's why there is test-pilot school.

You gotta love Falcons for that, they're exceptional in their handling characteristics. Ditto on leaving it to trained test pilots...non-trained pilots doing it is crap-shooting with your life.

But is this thread for real? If a company is assigning non-trained pilots to go out and perform full, aerodynamic stalls in swept winged jets, it's a situation that screams for FAA intervention, not just report-writing and recommendations after the smokin' hole appears.

 

[400A]

You gotta love Falcons for that, they're exceptional in their handling characteristics. Ditto on leaving it to trained test pilots...non-trained pilots doing it is crap-shooting with your life.

But is this thread for real? If a company is assigning non-trained pilots to go out and perform full, aerodynamic stalls in swept winged jets, it's a situation that screams for FAA intervention, not just report-writing and recommendations after the smokin' hole appears.

Got that right, but sadly, it seems to be comon at FO maint. I am based at a MX facility for options, and it is not at all uncommon to see the fire trucks chasing a options test flight bird.

 

[ultrarunner]

Got that right, but sadly, it seems to be comon at FO maint. I am based at a MX facility for options, and it is not at all uncommon to see the fire trucks chasing a options test flight bird.

that's BS. Any stalls that have to be acomplished in Lears, such as leading edge R & R, have to be done by folks from ICT.

good policy, and I'm all for it.

 

[400A]

that's BS. Any stalls that have to be acomplished in Lears, such as leading edge R & R, have to be done by folks from ICT.

good policy, and I'm all for it.

Ultra,

First of all Flight options does not operate lears.

Second of all I am refering to their general MX flight policies. Not just stalls.

So looks like your comment is the BS.

I have seen several followed by the trucks, Including a smoke filled hawker, and one with no oil in the left engine. As he said, The feds need to pay attention.

 

[Dep676]

Ultra,

First of all Flight options does not operate lears.

Second of all I am refering to their general MX flight policies. Not just stalls.

So looks like your comment is the BS.

I have seen several followed by the trucks, Including a smoke filled hawker, and one with no oil in the left engine. As he said, The feds need to pay attention.

The Hawker with no oil was MX fault. They didn't put the oil cap back on. We can't check that to easy when we pick up the airplane.

 

[400A]

The Hawker with no oil was MX fault. They didn't put the oil cap back on. We can't check that to easy when we pick up the airplane.

That was my point, Maint at that facility is fading fast. Turnover and expansion is so high that things are getting very sloppy.

I dont fly one, but I had been told about the cap not being visible without the cowl removed.

I was not blaming the crew.

 

[Dep676]

You are correct in saying that you can not get to the oil cap unless the cowling is open or removed. Also I didn't think that you were saying it was the crews fault. I was just adding to your point about MX being messed up here.