Pbi Incident?????????

[FISHINGOR]

Does anyone know what happened in PBI on 3-3-05 with the 800XP. How close did FLOPS get to losing one?

 

[Diesel]

what are you talking about?

 

[Dep676]

Yes do tell.

 

[PHX767]

Somebody from flight admin sent out to all the blackberries a dramatic announcement that while one of our 800xp's had an "irregularity" (?) during a mx test flight all was well and there was no cause for concern.

Which in turn causes all to ask "WTF happened?"

Instead of stating the facts and getting it over with, now there is rampant speculation.

So it could be anything from a engine shutdown to a flight control malfunction to a yellow light coming on.

 

[learflyer]

Is it normal for us to have a "media line"? Do any other fracs have this? Are we that paranoid about shiznet hapening that we have a special media line? The guys at flops know what I am talking about. Every time something like this happens, we get a message on the bb's saying "don't talk to the media, direct them to our media line". What a way to do business!

 

[Dep676]

Somebody from flight admin sent out to all the blackberries a dramatic announcement that while one of our 800xp's had an "irregularity" (?) during a mx test flight all was well and there was no cause for concern.

Which in turn causes all to ask "WTF happened?"

Instead of stating the facts and getting it over with, now there is rampant speculation.

So it could be anything from a engine shutdown to a flight control malfunction to a yellow light coming on.

I know I got the message. I just thought the person who started this thread might have some insight about what happened. If it just came out of MX in PBI. Nothing surprises me. The band aids are going to eventually break.

 

[Correcting]

We get these at Netjets too. It comes across our pagers and tells us to not talk to media and refer all questions to our PR department. We are usually given a pretty vague description as to what happened, such as engine failure, gear collapse, etc. Then of course, Netjets NEVER shares any of it's safety info with the pilots, so we can never learn from others' heroic actions or mistakes (or as Gary Hart would say, "challenges")

 

[Grim Reaper]

Corporate jet mishap rates are spiraling upward. Recent crashes and incidents, Challenger in Montrose, Gulf Stream in Eagle, Gulf Stream in Teterboro, Challenger in Teterboro, give the FAA reason to take pause and wonder about certificate holder compliance. All charter and FRACTIONAL (yes, NJA/NJI also) operators are under the microscope. Every aspect of the operation; scheduling, duty regulation compliance, training, safety oversight, maintenance, etc is all under close scrutiny. The FEDS are going to give each company just enough rope to hang itself. The strength of the system relies on the integrity of the system. The integrity of the system relies upon the integrity of the individual operator. I strongly suggest that we, as fractional pilots, cover our six. Guys, if it does not pass the smell test, do not do it. Life is too short and while we all need a job, we do not necessarily need this job.

 

[Dep676]

Corporate jet mishap rates are spiraling upward. Recent crashes and incidents, Challenger in Montrose, Gulf Stream in Eagle, Gulf Stream in Teterboro, Challenger in Teterboro, give the FAA reason to take pause and wonder about certificate holder compliance. All charter and FRACTIONAL (yes, NJA/NJI also) operators are under the microscope. Every aspect of the operation; scheduling, duty regulation compliance, training, safety oversight, maintenance, etc is all under close scrutiny. The FEDS are going to give each company just enough rope to hang itself. The strength of the system relies on the integrity of the system. The integrity of the system relies upon the integrity of the individual operator. I strongly suggest that we, as fractional pilots, cover our six. Guys, if it does not pass the smell test, do not do it. Life is too short and while we all need a job, we do not necessarily need this job.

Well said!!!!!!!!

I just hope something gets done before we lose someone.

 

[Grim Reaper]

The EVENT in PBI, whatever it was, gives me reason to be more than concerned. I am very worried. Of course, no one is surprised that something near deadly would happen with an aircraft coming out of the FO maintenance station PBI.

 

[WrknStff]

Never trust a mechanic unless he's willing to fly with you on the test flight I'd think.

 

[Santa Clause]

Didn't have anything to do with a mechanical irregularity. Unqualified crew fully stalled the aircraft intentionally and lost control of the aircraft. Scared themselves.

 

[ultrarunner]

Didn't have anything to do with a mechanical irregularity. Unqualified crew fully stalled the aircraft intentionally and lost control of the aircraft. Scared themselves.

You've GOT to be kidding, right?

 

[minimums]

Didn't have anything to do with a mechanical irregularity. Unqualified crew fully stalled the aircraft intentionally and lost control of the aircraft. Scared themselves.

Unqualified????? Please explain!

 

[hawkercpt]

At simulfite

we are trained to take the aircraft to am imminent stall and recover, not to a complete one. The acceptance "test" flight after the removal of 2 or more TKS panels is a stall series. Per the maint. manual it is to be a complete stall. Thats ok for your average line pilot to do, but if something goes wrong, as it may have here, it could get real hairy real quick for someone who has never done a stall in a swept wing aircraft. Especially if one wing breaks first.
For years we have been telling them, the company, its a bad idea. I for one have volunteered multiple time to go to Test Pilot school, at their expense of course. Then they could pay me test pilot wages and I would do all of the MX flight they had, but until then...I'm not doing it. Lots of other guys feel this way too.

 

[Grizz]

hawkercpt -

I was a military FCF pilot in all series of aircraft I flew and I have to agree with you. Doing a full maintenance check flight deserves special pay because things go wrong beyond anyone's reasonable expectations. It's a lesson that I learned a bunch of times but twice it almost cost me the ultimate price.

1) We picked up a EC-130 at a BHM - a depot level maintenance facility. They had been doing a center wing-box replacement mandated by the AF and Lockheed. I took off and within 30 seconds the scanner (loadmaster) was screaming, "Get this airplane on the ground!" on the intercom. I told the engineer to go take a look-see as I pulled a closed. About 30 seconds later, the engineer is on intercom, "Get this airplane on the ground!" My engineer and scanner tell me they're hearing very loud popping noises in the back. I turned base, landed the beast, and stopped straight ahead on the runway.

Come to find out, the maintenance facility was using the wrong size rivets on the center wing box and the noise they were hearing were rivets popping loose in flight. Another 3-4 minutes and the whole center wing box would have come undone. As far as I remember from basic aeronautics, wings are not optional in flight. Many beers were consumed that night by all.

2) A few years later, we were doing a complete FCF stall series on a B-1900 after two primary flight surface replacements. A complete stall series includes taking the aircraft to stall and determining the airspeed at stall warning, airspeed at full stall, seeing which way it breaks, etc. One of the props was rigged significantly differently than the other and it hit the stops pretty much at exactly the wrong time and it induced a serious spin. I can tell you that the spin recovery in a B-1900 isn't anywhere near as pretty as it is in a T-37. I was doing training for two instructors upgrading to FCF status on that flight and the pilot not on headset during that maneuver made the comment - "It's a good thing I wasn't on headset because you'd have heard me screaming like a little girl."

After abject lesson #2, I decided that I'd had enough of maintenance check flights. Thank goodness, I only had about 6 months to go before I retired and never faced that situation again.

I've picked the Citation X up at a service center a couple of times with a maintenance check flight due but so far it hasn't been anything other than pressurization or something like that. The moment it steps up into something serious - sorry Charlie...get someone else to play Race Bannon.

 

[Captain Overs]

Corporate jet mishap rates are spiraling upward. Recent crashes and incidents, Challenger in Montrose, Gulf Stream in Eagle, Gulf Stream in Teterboro, Challenger in Teterboro, give the FAA reason to take pause and wonder about certificate holder compliance. All charter and FRACTIONAL (yes, NJA/NJI also) operators are under the microscope. Every aspect of the operation; scheduling, duty regulation compliance, training, safety oversight, maintenance, etc is all under close scrutiny. The FEDS are going to give each company just enough rope to hang itself. The strength of the system relies on the integrity of the system. The integrity of the system relies upon the integrity of the individual operator. I strongly suggest that we, as fractional pilots, cover our six. Guys, if it does not pass the smell test, do not do it. Life is too short and while we all need a job, we do not necessarily need this job.

That's because you guys don't fly enought to stay as skilled as you should. But more importantly you're hiring "gear throwers" to sit in the right seat. You get what you pay for!

 

[Dep676]

That's because you guys don't fly enought to stay as skilled as you should. But more importantly you're hiring "gear throwers" to sit in the right seat. You get what you pay for!

WTF over. We don't fly enough to stay skilled. Flying 60 to 80 hours a month isn't flying enough????????????

 

[walkoshame]

Oh sh!t then I'm in big trouble only flying about 50

 

[GVFlyer]

we are trained to take the aircraft to am imminent stall and recover, not to a complete one. The acceptance "test" flight after the removal of 2 or more TKS panels is a stall series. Per the maint. manual it is to be a complete stall. Thats ok for your average line pilot to do, but if something goes wrong, as it may have here, it could get real hairy real quick for someone who has never done a stall in a swept wing aircraft. Especially if one wing breaks first.
For years we have been telling them, the company, its a bad idea. I for one have volunteered multiple time to go to Test Pilot school, at their expense of course. Then they could pay me test pilot wages and I would do all of the MX flight they had, but until then...I'm not doing it. Lots of other guys feel this way too.

I'm with you, pardner. Gulfstream Flight Test doesn't do full aerodynamic stalls unless a stall chute is installed. It's okay to go to the pusher without a chute on the jet and that is done routinely on production and completion test flights as well as third party evaluations or technical evaluations.

Stall characteristics vary greatly even among aircraft from the same mnufacturer. For example, you can't make a Lear 31 stall - the ventral fins keep pushing the nose down before critical angle of attack is reached, but on the Lear 35 you need 400 lbs of ballast on the potty seat and a stall chute before you even attempt a stall.

I don't know anything about Hawker stall characteristics, but you can deduce a lot from it's installed equipment. If there is inadequate aerodynamic warning of an impending stall a shaker is required. If the jet rolls more than 20 degrees when it stalls a pusher is required. The great danger, of course, in doing full stalls in swept wing jets is that the nose will pitch-up in the stall and the wing will blank out the tail making you unable to get the nose down to return to controlled flight.

GV

 

[some_dude]

Stall characteristics vary greatly even among aircraft from the same mnufacturer. For example, you can't make a Lear 31 stall - the ventral fins keep pushing the nose down before critical angle of attack is reached, but on the Lear 35 you need 400 lbs of ballast on the potty seat and a stall chute before you even attempt a stall.

Lear 35s are routinely stalled after the 12 year inspection or any removal/reinstall of the leading edges. A forward CG is a good idea, although I've never seen one with a stall chute (unless the drag chute counts!).

The Learjet maintenance manual requires a test pilot who meets certain training requirements (and I don't think there are that many guys who qualify). Sounds like the Hawker should as well.

 

[GVFlyer]

I don't disagree with the basic premise (that the test pilot on these flights should be trained and qualified for full stalls). However, Lear 35s are routinely stalled after the 12 year inspection or any removal/reinstall of the leading edges, without a stall chute. A forward CG is a good idea, however.

The Learjet maintenance manual requires a test pilot who meets certain training requirements (and I don't think there are that many guys who qualify). Sounds like the Hawker should as well.

I have only done full stalls in Lear 35s in concert with the certification of the military version of the aircraft and the test articles were prepared as I stated for stall testing.

GV

 

[CUEBOAT]

What exactly is a stall chute? How does it work? Does it just a weather vane effect?

 

[slowto250]

GV,

Great post. Might even keep some weekend test pilot from digging themselves an impact crater. The average biz jet is not your father's Cherokee six ;-)

 

[GVFlyer]

Stall chute

What exactly is a stall chute? How does it work? Does it just a weather vane effect?

The least desireable stall characteristic any jet can have is to pitch-up when it stalls, the reason being that the wing can blank out the horizontal stabilizer causing a loss of pitch control and the ability to get the nose down to fly out of the stall. A stall chute, when deployed, gets the nose down to reestablish airflow over the tail and subsequent pitch control. It is then cut away.

During Global Express development while demonstrating recovery from unaccelerated aerodynamic stalls with a FAA test pilot at the controls the jet pitched-up and could not be returned to controlled flight without deploying the stall chute. This is precisely what occurred during Challenger 600 development with the exception that Bombardier test pilots were at both cockpit stations and that they could not get rid of the stall chute after getting the nose down. Subsequently, there was insufficient thrust available for sustained flight and controlability was suspect. Two of the crew were able to bail out and sustained severe injuries. The remaining pilot and flight test engineer perished with their craft. The surviving test pilot now works in the Atlanta ACO.

GV

 

[SafetyTheSeat]

Gee G-V........

The Hawker is the only aircraft not listed in your resume... You better go get that type.......

Hey how big is that watch of yours?

 

[p3hawk]

Hawker stall characteristics

Last year, summer as a matter of fact. I did the same profile on the 800XP. It was a 48 month insp. They pull ed all the leading edge panels off for a corrosion insp.

after the leading edges are put back on they do a stall vane check to ensure that the warnings and shaker go off. I tested this particular aircraft throughout the week. it was failing the pusher during all configuration events and going into a stall. My F/O and I fully briefed ourselves on what actions will be taken if and when we departed controlled flight. Pilots need to take into account what their experience levels are and their knowledge of their aircraft. I think Clint Eastwood said it best, "Man's got to know his limitations" (Magnum Force).

 

[hawkercpt]

My F/O and I fully briefed ourselves on what actions will be taken if and when we departed controlled flight. Pilots need to take into account what their experience levels are and their knowledge of their aircraft(Magnum Force).

You and your FO have done full stall recoveries in a Hawker? Any swept wing aircraft? Gotten out of flat spin?

I understand you've briefed it, but when push comes to shove, if your not properly trained for it...don't do it. If you happen to live through the event and the FAA comes knockin at your door, the company isn't going to be there for you.

Airlines have test pilots for such flights. They want to run us like an airline, then so be it.

 

[ultrarunner]

Man, flying is inherently dangerous enough. The only sweptwing jet I have ever stalled is the Falcon 10, and that's pretty much a non-event, as it really doesn't stall...just decends while you fly it with the stick full-aft. Actually pretty cool.

But anything else, I'll leave it to the test pilots. That's why there is test-pilot school.

 

[GVFlyer]

Gee G-V........

The Hawker is the only aircraft not listed in your resume... You better go get that type.......

Hey how big is that watch of yours?

How big is that brain of yours?

GV