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Passover pay at Purple??
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MalteseX
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No, it will not. In order for it to trigger passover pay for you, the junior guy must "delay" your training. Since he is already trained, this is a domicile transfer, requiring no training for him.
Since your training was not delayed by his move/activation in MEM, you won't be eligible for passover pay. That is the way the "powers that be" interpreted it for a buddy of mine in your situation.
Passover Pay Due To Junior Pilot’s Early Activation
- a. In case of a junior pilot’s activation to a higher paying position out of seniority order, every senior pilot who meets the following prerequisites shall be paid as if he had activated in that higher paying position (passover pay):
[*]i. the junior pilot and the senior pilot(s) hold an award for the same crew position; and
[*]ii. the junior pilot’s award is from the same posting as the senior pilot’s award or from a subsequent posting; and
[*]iii. the Company chooses to activate the junior pilot prior to the senior pilot(s) and the junior pilot’s activation delays the training and activation of the senior pilot(s).
Goose17
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One could argue...
If I am not mistaken, I believe all the MD-11 selectees have had their training dates slid. You could make a case that the classes have been delayed due to the purple nuggets getting trained first and going to Alaska only to come back to Memphis ahead of the more senior dudes.
Sounds logical to me.
Goose17
If I am not mistaken, I believe all the MD-11 selectees have had their training dates slid. You could make a case that the classes have been delayed due to the purple nuggets getting trained first and going to Alaska only to come back to Memphis ahead of the more senior dudes.
Sounds logical to me.
Goose17
PastV1
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If the other pilot started training after the close of the current bid you might have an case that he delayed your training and held a bid for the same crew position as you do. For instance, if he started a couple of weeks after the training letter's completion, then you could argue that he wasn't trained as an ANC crewmember at all. He didn't hold an ANC bid at the time he started training, he held a MEM slot regardless of what the TL stated. The company was just too lazy(or smart) to take him out of the queue and re-write the TL to reflect the current bid.
All this has to be true, then the ALPA lawyers will have to agree with that interpretation, then maybe you can grieve it. Your chances are small at best, and I'm sure you not the first in this situation, so your block rep will probably have all the details/history for you.
All this has to be true, then the ALPA lawyers will have to agree with that interpretation, then maybe you can grieve it. Your chances are small at best, and I'm sure you not the first in this situation, so your block rep will probably have all the details/history for you.
MalteseX
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That sounds like these guys should get passover pay, in this case. Essentially, by sending them to ANC first then to MEM, they essentially got around the intent of the contract---basically a "loophole".
This seems to be a bone job for the senior guys.... taken to the extreme, they could essentially delay the training of the senior guys indefinitely ---(ie they could keep sending the nuggets one by one to MEM ... and get around the passover pay provision.
I'm sure when it was written, the negotiators didn't envision this situation. Sounds like a grievance....
pipe
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I agree, this sounds like bringing in newhires to MEM11F through the backdoor. Just out of curiosity, what seniority number (roughly) is about to activate? I am in the same boat as you.
PIPE
ANC to Mem
It seems to me that if you look at the seniority lists by type and domicile, all the nuggets are at ANC since there has been no bid since their training. As for the people transferring, they are not nuggets (this summers new hires directly into the MD-11) and are transferring under the previous bid.
I've been wrong before though.
It seems to me that if you look at the seniority lists by type and domicile, all the nuggets are at ANC since there has been no bid since their training. As for the people transferring, they are not nuggets (this summers new hires directly into the MD-11) and are transferring under the previous bid.
I've been wrong before though.
Dak,
I think that is mostly true. If while a pilot is in training for bid 'A', or after activation in ANC, there is another bid,'B', and he bids Memphis then passover would never apply to a MEM bidder from bid 'B.'
However, where a slight of hand could occur would be if :
1)the ANC bidder bid MEM before he went to training
2) he retains his orig. training date as if he were training for ANC and
3) when he completes training he is immediately transferred to MEM.
The company could have easily moved him to a later training date commensurate with his seniority on the second bid results, but they chose not to. IMO, they trained out of order for MEM, which should trigger passover pay. They should, again IMO, activate him in ANC and wait to transfer him until he would have trained for MEM(or he can trade transfer dates).
I'm sure JTM knows whether this is the case for him. If so, I think it could be greivable since it seems to fit all the provisions of passover as quoted by Maltese X earlier.
I think that is mostly true. If while a pilot is in training for bid 'A', or after activation in ANC, there is another bid,'B', and he bids Memphis then passover would never apply to a MEM bidder from bid 'B.'
However, where a slight of hand could occur would be if :
1)the ANC bidder bid MEM before he went to training
2) he retains his orig. training date as if he were training for ANC and
3) when he completes training he is immediately transferred to MEM.
The company could have easily moved him to a later training date commensurate with his seniority on the second bid results, but they chose not to. IMO, they trained out of order for MEM, which should trigger passover pay. They should, again IMO, activate him in ANC and wait to transfer him until he would have trained for MEM(or he can trade transfer dates).
I'm sure JTM knows whether this is the case for him. If so, I think it could be greivable since it seems to fit all the provisions of passover as quoted by Maltese X earlier.
Falconjet
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This was discussed on a similar thread a few months ago. It might be worth calling contract enforcement, but I'm pretty sure that the last person who brought up this exact scanario a few months ago (capt zman) did and there was no passover.
The contract is pretty clear, same seat, domicile and bid. A lateral doesn't cause passover pay.
Yeah it sucks, but the logic is that if you had wanted the earliest available training date you should have bid ANC. Training dates get moved all the time, but as long as they go in seniority order by seat, domicile and bid
(except for trades of course) there is no passover triggered.
I still would give enforcement a call, but I wouldn't have my hopes up too high.
FJ
The contract is pretty clear, same seat, domicile and bid. A lateral doesn't cause passover pay.
Yeah it sucks, but the logic is that if you had wanted the earliest available training date you should have bid ANC. Training dates get moved all the time, but as long as they go in seniority order by seat, domicile and bid
(except for trades of course) there is no passover triggered.
I still would give enforcement a call, but I wouldn't have my hopes up too high.
FJ
FNG_that's me
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What happens at the next bid when they just move the 100 or so 'purple nuggets' down to MEM and hire a 100 more guys to go to ANC. That's 200 guys(or however many) on 1st year pay flying the MD and 100 seasoned guys stuck in the backseat on 2nd and 3rd year pay. Good deal? Doesn't sound like it.
Wasn't there an agreement about the new hire to ANC program? Was any of this addressed?
Signed,
Curious in the new year
Wasn't there an agreement about the new hire to ANC program? Was any of this addressed?
Signed,
Curious in the new year
Last edited:
Falconjet
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The company doesn't transfer people, they have to bid back to MEM. So if they are senior enough to hold MEM in the 11 they will be able to lateral over. I'm not sure how the lateral works but I think they stay in ANC until their seniority would have gotten them a training date on the new bid, and then they lateral over.
They are pretty savvy and have been doing this a long time. The passover lady is pretty much on top of things, and if you are due passover it is likely they will start it up when it is due.
I wouldn't count on that, I'd track it myself, but again the operative phrase from the contract is same bid, same seat, same domicile.
The guys who got delayed from the last moab by the golden nuggets had some reason to complain because the company didn't exactly specify that they would train the ANC guys first or send new hires to ANC, which would delay their training but still not trigger passover. So they bid MEM -11 and held it and figured they would train in seniority order. They did, but the ANC domicile guys trained first. That is a loophole (if you will) that the company exploited to its advantage.
My question to them however, is even if you knew they would train the ANC guys first, would you have bid ANC so you could get widebody pay sooner? I doubt it. So you bid what you want to fly and then wait for the training cycle to work its way through. The bright side is that those guys will still be junior to you when you activate and they might keep you from having to stand reserve once you do activate.
FJ
They are pretty savvy and have been doing this a long time. The passover lady is pretty much on top of things, and if you are due passover it is likely they will start it up when it is due.
I wouldn't count on that, I'd track it myself, but again the operative phrase from the contract is same bid, same seat, same domicile.
The guys who got delayed from the last moab by the golden nuggets had some reason to complain because the company didn't exactly specify that they would train the ANC guys first or send new hires to ANC, which would delay their training but still not trigger passover. So they bid MEM -11 and held it and figured they would train in seniority order. They did, but the ANC domicile guys trained first. That is a loophole (if you will) that the company exploited to its advantage.
My question to them however, is even if you knew they would train the ANC guys first, would you have bid ANC so you could get widebody pay sooner? I doubt it. So you bid what you want to fly and then wait for the training cycle to work its way through. The bright side is that those guys will still be junior to you when you activate and they might keep you from having to stand reserve once you do activate.
FJ
thats not what happened in this case,, he bid anchorage on the bid before the MOAB got trained and activated in ANC then the MOAB came out and i bid MD11 and a junior guy comes first, just curious how he comes to MEM before a senior guy??? it sucks but if its a loophole then so be it,, im sure ill find a hundred more loop holes over my career to my advantage,, and ill be looking even harder now
FNG_that's me
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FJ, I don't totally understand the system but let me take a swing.
Here's my concern, or what would be my concern if I were a new-hire non-md11 dude at fdx:
Next bid the company needs 101 MEM Md-11 pilots added to the list. I want to be one of them. Coincidentally, the 100 purple nuggets don't want to be in Anchorage but took it as a condition of employment since that was the smart thing to do. They all bid MEM. So do I, all 101 of us. I'm the senior guy(did I mention that?). Fedex hires 100 new pilots and sends them to Anc and 1 by 1 transfers the 100 ANC nuggets to MEM...then they train me for my MEM slot. This takes about a year, now I've been here two years and there are 200 MD-11 pilots junior to me and I don't get any passover, right?
You guys have a great thing going, don't get me wrong, but it seems they slipped one by ya on this one. This purple nugget thing seems to be a way to keep one year's worth of year-two F/Os off wide-body pay indefinitely, no?
If I've missed something(other than the concept that working at FDX is a great deal), I apologize. Just an observation.
Prospero Ano Nuevo!!!
Here's my concern, or what would be my concern if I were a new-hire non-md11 dude at fdx:
Next bid the company needs 101 MEM Md-11 pilots added to the list. I want to be one of them. Coincidentally, the 100 purple nuggets don't want to be in Anchorage but took it as a condition of employment since that was the smart thing to do. They all bid MEM. So do I, all 101 of us. I'm the senior guy(did I mention that?). Fedex hires 100 new pilots and sends them to Anc and 1 by 1 transfers the 100 ANC nuggets to MEM...then they train me for my MEM slot. This takes about a year, now I've been here two years and there are 200 MD-11 pilots junior to me and I don't get any passover, right?
You guys have a great thing going, don't get me wrong, but it seems they slipped one by ya on this one. This purple nugget thing seems to be a way to keep one year's worth of year-two F/Os off wide-body pay indefinitely, no?
If I've missed something(other than the concept that working at FDX is a great deal), I apologize. Just an observation.
Prospero Ano Nuevo!!!
Falconjet
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I'm certainly no expert on the contract or the passover process.
The one thing I do know, is that unless you bid for the same seat in the SAME domicile during the same bid you won't be eligible for passover pay. If guys can work the system to spend a year in ANC and then get to Memphis out of seniority order (ie next bid) then more power to them, but I don't know how they did it.
If you want the widebody pay at the earliest opportunity then bid ANC. As I understand those hypothetical 100 guys in ANC who bid back to Mem will not activate in Mem until their seniority can hold it. That is where I'm not sure how this guy is getting back to Mem without being able to hold it.
Just because there is a pilot junior to you in a seat above you doesn't mean you get passover pay. If, however, you bid the SAME seat, SAME domicile, on the SAME bid, and the company trains a pilot junior to you first, then you will get passover when that pilot activates into his/her new seat. New hires going to domiciles where the company needs them are not part of a bid.
I have a buddy senior to me by about a month (4.5 years here) who is a new LCA in the back seat and is still waiting for passover pay because he waited so long to bid a widebody seat. There have been guys junior to us for a couple of years in the widebody, but he hadn't bid it until the last bid, and nobody junior to him from that bid will activate until this month. Then he will get the passover pay.
Oh yeah, Happy New Year everybody.
Go VOLS!
FJ
The one thing I do know, is that unless you bid for the same seat in the SAME domicile during the same bid you won't be eligible for passover pay. If guys can work the system to spend a year in ANC and then get to Memphis out of seniority order (ie next bid) then more power to them, but I don't know how they did it.
If you want the widebody pay at the earliest opportunity then bid ANC. As I understand those hypothetical 100 guys in ANC who bid back to Mem will not activate in Mem until their seniority can hold it. That is where I'm not sure how this guy is getting back to Mem without being able to hold it.
Just because there is a pilot junior to you in a seat above you doesn't mean you get passover pay. If, however, you bid the SAME seat, SAME domicile, on the SAME bid, and the company trains a pilot junior to you first, then you will get passover when that pilot activates into his/her new seat. New hires going to domiciles where the company needs them are not part of a bid.
I have a buddy senior to me by about a month (4.5 years here) who is a new LCA in the back seat and is still waiting for passover pay because he waited so long to bid a widebody seat. There have been guys junior to us for a couple of years in the widebody, but he hadn't bid it until the last bid, and nobody junior to him from that bid will activate until this month. Then he will get the passover pay.
Oh yeah, Happy New Year everybody.
Go VOLS!
FJ
PastV1
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Falcon,
When I did a lateral trans from ANC to MEM in the left seat about 30 months ago they swapped most of the guys that were doing laterals from one domicile to another about a month after the training letter came out. All the LAX, MEM, ANC guys that swapped moved on Nov 1st I believe.
And I was not nearly the most senior type person. FWIW...
Past...
When I did a lateral trans from ANC to MEM in the left seat about 30 months ago they swapped most of the guys that were doing laterals from one domicile to another about a month after the training letter came out. All the LAX, MEM, ANC guys that swapped moved on Nov 1st I believe.
And I was not nearly the most senior type person. FWIW...
Past...
Falconjet
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Rats! TN lost.
Ok, I must admit again that I'm not sure how the laterals work. I looked at the training letter and I don't see any guys coming out of ANC (either seat) that aren't going to LA. I am obviously missing something there.
Do all the laterals show up on the training letter? I thought they did. I don't see any going to MEM.
Although it might not seem fair, I don't think laterals will trigger passover pay.
I'd give enforcement a call and let us all know how it turns out as it will likely come up again once the new hires start going to ANC again.
FJ
Ok, I must admit again that I'm not sure how the laterals work. I looked at the training letter and I don't see any guys coming out of ANC (either seat) that aren't going to LA. I am obviously missing something there.
Do all the laterals show up on the training letter? I thought they did. I don't see any going to MEM.
Although it might not seem fair, I don't think laterals will trigger passover pay.
I'd give enforcement a call and let us all know how it turns out as it will likely come up again once the new hires start going to ANC again.
FJ
PastV1
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FJ,
Not sure but I think you have to look at the final bid award with "Training and Transfer" dates. Transfers would not be on the training letter as they are not going to training....
Past...
Falconjet
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