Pan Am Flight Academy CFIing

[flyhawk]

Wiggums,

I think you're focused on only one part of the picture. I'm an Army Aviator with 1,140 TT of which 540 is civilian fixed wing time (> 70 MEFW). I'll be getting out of the service in the next six months and Pan Am, though definitely pricey, may be a great route for someone like me. I already have my Comm/Inst./ME rating, but with the way the industry is right now and the stigma associated with us "Rotorheads", it's tough to get ahead and find a decent job enroute to the regionals. CFI'ing is fine, but with the time and commitment to the armed services that many of us have put in, the real life experiences we endure all over the world, and the excellent training received c/o Uncle Sam, I do not consider the possibility of attending somewhere like Pan Am to be "the quick path."

Now to answer some of your questions as they relate to me, just another guy trying to make it:
1) How many students at Pan Am are over thirty years old? I turn 30 next week.
2) How many students at Pan Am have college degrees? 4 yr. degree from West Point (not quite a "gotta have it now", quickie education), not to mention a bit rougher than the "tried and proven path" of CFI'ing. I spent 4 years while I was there getting my PPL, yes 4 years, on the two or so weekends I got out of the gates each semester.
3) Why are all the college grads and older students going elsewhere? Obviously I wouldn't be one of them.
4) Could it be that they know better then Pan Am's slick marketing? Or am I just becoming an bitter old man for advocating the tried and proven path? Possibly...........

Wiggums, I'm not looking at getting into any bashing contest or stupid remarks; I simply want to let you and others know that there are other routes to get to what we all dream about. I'm tired of reading over and over that the only "tried and true" method is to CFI. There are many of us who have expended much blood, sweat, and tears, both figuratively and literally, on our path to that goal, and oh by the way, serving our nation as well. I love it and think it's one of the most honorable things any of us can do. I challenge others on this board to think about that. I will look to continue my service in the Air National Guard and pursue an airline career simultaneously. If that means I go to Pan Am, pay $7,000, receive an excellent ground school education, get to fly 30 hours of a full motion CRJ, and be that much more proficient in an aircraft I'm not familiar with, then so be it. And if they want to give me my money back later if they can't help me find a job, then that's just that much better.

I would jump at the chance to fly for an excellent organization like Airnet. I have spoken at length to both Mr. Craig Washka (Dir. of Pilot Recruiting at Airnet) and Mr. Rob Brantner (Dir. of Tng. at Pan Am, a former Army Aviator I might add). They are both fine, upstanding individuals. Airnet is a top notch company and the pilots that fly there are extremely happy. If I put down some of my hard earned money (not Daddy's as many people believe about those who attend Schools like Pan Am) and receive a great education, fly well maintained aircraft, and "only end up at Airnet" as some seem to belabor, I would consider it a blessing and a great training opportunity everyday! As long as we all remember that we are all always learning every time we climb into that cockpit, we'll be ok.

I will stop my rambling and let you folks ponder just one other pilot's aspect on this issue. Turtlboy, I admire your ability to post what you did in the face of certain criticism, but then again, a little criticism and friendly advice makes us all better pilots and better people. Good luck to everyone and may we all see one another in the air, (preferably at FL330)!!

FLYHAWK

 

[Bluto]

Flyhawk,
Good points. I can't thank you enough for your service. Just a point, though. The CRJ is not full-motion. It is a stationary, FTD type simulator. Good luck with Pan Am.

 

[buckman]

Flyhawk,

Your thoughts on Pan Am's aircraft are correct; however, if you're looking for an "excellent" ground school you may be disappointed.

Buckman

 

[hyper]

flyhawk,
hope you're not going to the Ft. Pierce branch. http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4716&highlight=pan+am

scroll down to my post on the above thread.

You also don't need to be from p.a. to get into Airnet. 6 in my class and only 1 from p.a.. Out of all the p.a. guys I know there, 0 are from the Ft. Pierce branch.

We also stopped hiring indefinitely for this year.

 

[jaybird]

for what it's worth, my class, that just went through at airnet had 4 pan am guys. three from phoenix and one from ft pierce, who by the way were all great guys. they all had negative things to say about the ace program. none of them were in the ace program.

one of the guys knew the director of the ace program (or some director of something) quite well and asked him for a letter or rec. the director said no because he wasn't in the ace program. that's fine, but the director uses this guys name to sell the program to other prospective students by saying "hey look, this guy just got hired, blah blah blah"

there will be no new classes for three to six months. i guess they are still interviewing. i jumpseated with a guy who just interviewed and he said airnet was only interviewing schools they have have agreements with pan am, riddle, wrightway, and osu.

 

[flyhawk]

Bluto / Buckman / Hyper,

Thanks for all of the great advice. Yeah, I don't know why I said full motion sim. I guess I got carried away. I'm still keeping a close eye on Airnet and am listening to their telephone recording often. I know their hiring has stopped for right now. I'm just looking at all possible courses of action. I still have six months until I get out, so Pan Am is not a definite, just another option. Buckman - as far as the excellent ground school, that is a hopeful one based off of what Turtlboy said.

We've had some pretty good ground schools in Army Aviation both during flight school and since then. Army Aviation Flight School does a great job at Ft. Rucker, although it still definitely does not finish the job. It takes the hard work and determination of your IP's (Instructor Pilots) and others in addition to your own hard work to become a solid pilot. Thanks again, guys. Hope to see you around.

FLYHAWK

 

[flyhawk]

Jaybird,

Thanks for your info also. Sorry, I didn't see your message yet at the time I wrote. All info helps.

FLYHAWK

 

[AZaviator]

Does anybody know if the ACE program instructors at Pan Am have even stepped foot inside a real CRJ, let alone, have any time in it?

 

[turtlboy]

Thanks for the vote of support, flyhawk!

Every ACE grad that I've talked to has said (paraphrasing) "Wow, that was awesome, glad I took the program." And those that haven't been through it say "What a waste of money." It's not just about getting a job quicker, it's a different kind of experience. How many people get the experience of flying a glass cockpit before getting an airline job? Once I get my seniority built up, I'll be flying glass cockpits for the rest of my life and it was a great intro into that world. Since that class, I've been more motivated than ever in my life - I'm going to work as hard as I can so I can start getting paid for flying as soon as I can. Hell, I'd even fly it for free! (until I ran out of money) I came to PanAm for the experiences and I've had some great experiences.

If PanAm can get me hired quicker, that's a bonus. Aviation is a seniority-based industry. That extra 6 months (or even 2 weeks or 2 days) could someday be the difference between flying and being laid-off.

It would be nice to start getting paid very soon so that I can start crawling my way out of debt, but I'm in it for the love of flying. If I have to teach an extra year or 2 or 3, or be "stuck" at Airnet, I'll be enjoying my time in the air. If I'm still unemployed after the 6 months guarantee, I'll still be happy flying my Archer or Arrow or Seminole or Baron or whatever and glad I had the chance to fly a CRJ FTD, and continuing dreaming of my airline job. It's gotta be love, only a crazy man would pay $60,000 to make $20,000/yr with no regrets.

Buckman, it's true that some of the PanAm ground schools have been weak. They have done some hiring and they now have, I believe, an excellent crew of ground instructors. The ACE program is separate from the rest of PanAm, it's in its own little world. That ground school was awesome! It was taught by someone who has flown the CRJ and has a few years of regional experience with great stories and truths. He told us that 1/3 of students fail ground schools and he's been through 3 - failed the first one (mostly because he didn't know what to expect and was overwhelmed), passed the 2nd time around, and then changed airlines.

Everyone is focused on the ACE program, I suppose that's because it's the major marketing toy of PanAm. PanAm has a lot more to offer. I just finished the route program - 80 hours of ME dual crew flying IFR to all types of airports - class B, C, untowered, etc. We flew over the desert at night, practically actual IFR - the closest we come to actual out here. That was real world experience - flying to unknown busy airports every night, being in the IFR system - I picked up some great knowledge that can only be gained through experience.

btw, the ACE program has been going on for well over a year. They were using a Lear 35(?) sim before the CRJ. And, at least one class flew in the full-motion Citation sim at SimCom in Scottsdale. As I said, no ACE grads have gone to Airnet and I believe there is only ACE grad in Phoenix above the minimums that is currently still instructing, and that person took ACE post-9/11. There are a lot more than a handful of ACE grads in the airlines.

 

[skippy22]

This about this.

You can use that $7,000 and get a B737 type-rating, and that might actually get you the job one day! Also aviation colleges offer internships that will give you sim and groundschool training with major airlines.

I don't think that 7 hours or whatever it is will make you more prepared for the airlines. There is a lot more to it than that. Good luck with your decision.

 

[azpilot]

I think a lot of people that go to Pan Am think it is great because they don't know any different. The ACE program might be worth something if it would actually get you a job at a regional. While Airnet looks like a great outfit it is not a regional. It is a stepping stone for most and normally does not require going to a school like Pan Am. You will be flying a Baron until you meet 135 requirements and then you will be a flying single pilot in one of Airnet's other aircraft. When they were hiring in droves it seemed pretty easy to get into the right seat of a Baron with no program at all.

I know they favor applicants who are CFI's. So go get your CFI rating teach a while and apply. Why spend $7k for nothing. The days of going to a Pan Am like school to get an edge at a regional are numbered because they just aren't highering and they once again can have the pick of the litter based on all the furloughs. Do I like this? Hell no! I have less than a thousand hours and know the path to a flying job just got a lot longer again. If you are in it for the love of aviation then taking another few turns up the long path won't bother you. The only reason why these programs started was because people were upgrading and moving on so fast that it was in the companies interest to higher a lower time pilot. The lower time pilot would have to stick around for a while to get to ATP minimums and then would stick around longer to get PIC time. Those days are over for several years to come. To me the only program that might be worth while is the Mesa Pace program. At least it is run by the airline and not a "partner" only problem is those pilots might be forced to fly for Freedom and I don't think that is a good thing at all.

Just don't believe what you read. Spend some time checking out other schools and other options. Others have proven the point much better than I have with running the numbers. The 7k for the program helps pay for the nice big ads in the magazines.

Keep the faith.
AZPilot

 

[ATPShane]

Pan Am Phoenix notes

I took a tour of Pan Am in Phoenix today, thought I would share what I saw, which may answer some of the questions that have been posed here:

1. The buildings all seemed very clean, obviously a janitorial crew (or CFIs needing $).

2. The CRJ FTD is not full motion: True.

3. The CRJ FTD sure does feel full motion: True. In fact, my body felt very strange afterwards. Maybe its because my brain believed us to be moving but there was no motion input to my body? The 90 degree wrap-around view was beautiful. Every switch/EFIS/handle/button, etc works just as in a CRJ.

4. The CRJ instructor was a furloughed Mesaba F.O.

5. There were many instructors sitting around with apparently nothing better to do. Not many smiles either.

6. The flying schedule was very professionally done and posted on the window of the dispatch building. Each CFI was broken down by each of his/her students for the day. Some of them were scheduled for 9 hours straight. The gentleman giving the tour said the schedule was also available the night before on the Internet for viewing.

7. Five or six Archers were on the ramp. The rest were apparently flying since the maintanence shop only had a C172, Archer, and Seminole. It was also very clean! Do they actually work on stuff there??

8. The man giving the tour said the instructors were FLYING 80-100 hours per month. Can anyone confirm if this is true? If that is true, its much better than where I work.

9. The man giving the tour touted their ACE partners and how you can get hired at the regional of your choice. However, he seemed a bit evasive whenever I tried to push for more details.

10. They had a Frasca sim.

That's all I remember. Comments?

 

[Crabtree]

CFIing at PanAM

Before I sigend my contract at PanAM, I asked if I had to CFI there in order to get the 6 month guarantee. I was told after I graduate from the program I can instruct anywhere (not at PanAM) and still get the 6 month guarantee. Thats a pretty good deal I think. I think the training there was great. There are some good and bad points, but overall, it seems to be a great school. I am sure looking at the big picture that the 30 hours of the sim isnt going to help much (15 hours left, 15 right seat). But the fact of the matter is, When hiring starts to open up again, who has a better chance, a guy that instructed at a FBO, or a guy who has some time in a sim like that plus all of the other accumulated time. Even if it was some time before the interview. I do have a question though that maybe some of you can answer. If an airline was hypothetically hiring 2 people, 1 for a commuter and 1 for an turbine, all things being remotely equal, wouldnt this help you get put in the turbine over the other guy since you have had a piston/turbine transistion course??

Dont get me wrong, I am not trying to sell the school. I left there do to a member of my familys health, and I am now attending a FBO, while helping the family on the side. Although I am happy to be at the FBO, I can tell you that I do think PanAM has a good program. Unfortunately, there is quite a bit of "pilot factory" things that do go on there. I am happy now and I am not afraid that I will run out of money before I get all of my ratings, which is not the case for a lot of students that go to the pilot factorys. However I might add that it isnt the schools fault some of the students run out of money. Some of the students I saw could not handle budgeting money and didnt have prioritys.

For anyone who is thinking about the school I would reccomend that you get your private and intsrument somewhere else first. There are even statistics that show there is a higher percent of graduates that enter the program with the instrument than if they start with the private.


Thats just my opinion.........

 

[Crabtree]

Phoenix PanAm

Good ole Bob the salesman.......he could sell ice to an eskimo! Yes they work on planes there. There is a 24 hour maint. crew there. Nice place, but look at the budget they have to work with..... Dont let that be a selling point, just ask yourself before you go there if you are willing to pay for all the nice things.

 

[skippy22]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Pan Am costs lots of money, I mean alot! And that CRJ training is just like the frasca, its not level C or D.

If you want sim training that will help you get a job, go get a 737 type for the same price as the ACE program. With really experienced instructors and really good systems training. 30 hours in a sit still sim will not give you that much of an advantage. And after all the smoke clears from 9/11, jobs will hard and no guarantees will be around.

Maybe if you had 30-50 hours level D sim time, with lots of emergency training that would help.

Good luck to everyone with flying and your training decisions.