Pan Am C152 In Fatal Crash - Any Info?

[User998]

Reading through the latest NTSB reports, I noticed that a Pan Am Flight Academy Cessna 152 crashed while conducting spin training a couple weeks ago. That's terrible to hear.

Anyone have any more information on the accident, and/or could someone PM me the names of the two involved. I use to attend there, and I'm hoping I don't know the CFI involved.

Thanks.

 

[schoolio]

Check your PMs.

 

[crazyaviatrix]

I was talking to the Chairman of the DPE for the Scottsdale FSDO and from him I got that is it was CFI spin training gone wrong. Apparently it was the applicant's 3rd time attemping his spin flight and every time he had frozen on the controls before. From the radar returns they had done 3 spins but the 4th they didn't start as high as they should have. As a result of this accident the DPE's have stopped accepting most of the area schools spin training and asked that they do a more through program with experienced acro instructors at either chandler aviation or fighter combat

 

[Wiggums]

Ok, what scares me is that we cannot trust a regular CFI to teach spin training?

If a regular CFI cannot be trusted to either recover from a spin or teach spin recovery, then should they even be teaching?

Also, how can a DPE specify where an applicant has completed their training. If a candidate has the endorsement, then they have met the requirement for the rating.

 

[crazyaviatrix]

yes and no. Having a spin endorsement is required however they do not have to accept the endorsement for the Practical Test. It is up to the DE to either accept the training or make you perform the task on the checkride. Most people are under the impression that simply getting endorsed exempts you from doing that task on the checkride unless you bust in which case the regs require you to do spins. Either way you are supposed to show up to the check ride ready to spin with a aircraft approved for intentional spins.

 

[Prop2Jet]

Who was killed? I went to PAIFA years ago. PM me with details.

 

[wrxpilot]

Ok, what scares me is that we cannot trust a regular CFI to teach spin training?

If a regular CFI cannot be trusted to either recover from a spin or teach spin recovery, then should they even be teaching?

Also, how can a DPE specify where an applicant has completed their training. If a candidate has the endorsement, then they have met the requirement for the rating.

No offense to CFIs, as I'm sure quite a number of them are great and very competent for spin training. But it was an easy decision for me (and everybody else at my south FL FBO) to drive over to the local aerobatic instructor's airport to receive spin training vs. paying somebody that's spun a C152 a dozen times.

I always thought the CFI spin endorsement was intended/required in case a student did something goofy, not so that the CFI could then teach spins.

 

[NightHauler]

This thread suprises me. I recall doing spin training as both a student and a CFI in a C152. I never had any issues. We routinely took it to 4000 plus to do the maneuvers to CFI applicants and never had a problem. I don't understand how an accident could happen, unless they were right at the lowest possible altitude, 2500 seems to ring a bell, and then intentionally spun it into the ground... I'm baffled. Is there more to the story? Was there structual failure?

 

[crazyaviatrix]

The student doing the training was known for freezing on the controls. Which at that level is kinda scary anyways. The CFI instructor who was doing the training had been Pan AM's spin instructor for awhile and was experienced. However she weighed all of 95 pounds and the student was 210. If he did freeze it be difficult to overpower someone that much bigger than you. As far as we know nothing was wrong with the plane and it had just gone through a 100h inspection. I guess we will have to wait and see what the NTSB has to say. However this accident has had a big effect in the Scottsdale FSDO. Many DPE's are concerned about the quality of instructors especially ones comming out of the academys. As a result students are being told to get spin training from a experienced acro pilot and if they don't they should be prepared to do spins on the checkride. Also, prior to the accident the FSDO allowed the school to shedule the DPE for the CFI checkrides now they have gone back to assigning the DPE or FAA inspector themselves.

 

[ajhbubs84]

Absolutley terrible news.

I believe there was rapidy rising terrain involved.

 

[NightHauler]

"freezing on the controls"

That's an interesting observation.

If that was the case, who the he11 allowed this guy to be up there? I know that I would have beat the living ********************e out of him to save my own skin. If she couldn't sitting right next to him, what makes you think that someone in a tandem t-34 style trainer will be able to wrestle the controls away from the student up front?

I've never met a student at the controls who froze to the point that I couldn't merely "take the controls."

From the very first day of flying, the instructor says, "When I say, 'I have the controls' you say, 'you have the controls' and relinquish the aircraft to me."

This is the first CRM thing every pilot should ever learn, and it starts on day one.

If the "student" is unable to do this, then he should go learn something else.

 

[crazyaviatrix]

exactly, but when it comes to the academys they sign a contract promissing they will get you the ratings. They are also know for just checking off boxes and not throughly teaching the practical stuff. Aparently this was the guys 3rd attempt on the spin flight and they still allowed him to go up. If that had happend with a 3rd party that perosn would have been told to give it up. I think there point about taking the spin training with an acro pilot is that they are trained for alot of stutations regular CFIs are not, and they have more experience and understanding of the aerodynamics of spins and such. I did my spin training in a great lakes and I had a blast. My school had lost our spin pilot a few days before and that was the only thing hold me back for my check ride and I was about to wait any more ( been waiting for 3 weeks becaus of mx). The new guy who took over spins is apparently slow on explaining the recovery technique while doing it. Thats great he can do it but how he got to be a spin instructor with that problem is just another example of how schools like to cut corners.

 

[Dutch]

Had one guy freeze about 4 years ago. He didn't respond until I put my hand over his eyes. That snapped him out of it.

 

[NightHauler]

"put you hands over his eyes?" I applaud your self-control. I guess there is a reason why I don't instruct anymore. I probably would have slapped him

It's a kinder, gentler world of aviation, but when the plane hits the ground, it still feels the same.

 

[VNugget]

Yesterday I was undergoing CFI training in a Champ, and my instructor showed me how to karate chop the student in the neck. (Something he has had to do in the past)

 

[I.P. Freley]

I've never met a student at the controls who froze to the point that I couldn't merely "take the controls."

Just because you haven't met one doesn't mean they exist. I had a student once who very nearly crashed us by freezing on the controls in a much-too-high flare, and I couldn't overpower him (I was a semi-regular gym-goer at the time, but this guy was a bodybuilder and could've lifted the whole darned airplane). I had my left arm cocked and was about to pound him in the neck when he suddenly just let go of the yoke... Completely. From full aft on the controls to just letting go, with a stall warning going off, at fifty feet. THAT was fun.

 

[Prop2Jet]

Hey about just putting your hand over their eyes, when they reach for them then you have the plane. Abusing is not the way. If you choose to b abusive buy a stun gun it works better!
jk!

 

[tweeter125]

I have to agree, the hand over the eyes works better than anything else.

 

[MJPilot]

I have done Spin training in older and newer 172s.. At first, I was not comfortable to do so, but some experienced pilots showed me how to spin the 152.

So 1 day, I did some spins with a student that wanted to get the feeling of them. This was a 1980 152, tanks half full, I was 180lbs, student about 160.


First couple of spins went well. We climbed up to 5700 feet to do them, over the Gulf of Mexico.

On the last spin we did, the plane got out of control. I entered the spin with a full stall, partial power, and then full rudder deflection. The C152 tumbled over, but then suddenly gained airspeed real quickly. We went OVER the redline to apprx. 200 kts indicated.

At that point, I thought that was it and some parts are about to fly off. Fortunately, we recovered at around 1200 feet, doing a slow pullback, myself being scared of overstressing the airframe.

I never really understood how the aircraft could accelerate to over 200kts in a few seconds.

I searched the internet and found that some 152 had gotten out of control in a similar way, probably being a C.G. problem.

If I ever have such students again, I gladly will send them over to some aerobatic instructor.

 

[Dutch]

I can't take credit for the idea of covering the eyes. A very senior (20+ years) IP told me that during CFI training.

My second favorite was the guy who didn't respond to my instructions because he had fallen asleep.