Pan Am C152 In Fatal Crash - Any Info?

[twighead]

Who was killed? I went to PAIFA years ago. PM me with details.

http://localsearch.azcentral.com/sp?keywords=pan+am+crash

 

[PC12Cowboy]

Hmm I think WE have missed a important part.........
We lost a skilled Instructor and fellow pilot and a perspective pilot as well!
GOD SPEED to those and Blessing to their families
PC12

 

[handlesaregay]

Hmm I think WE have missed a important part.........
We lost a skilled Instructor and fellow pilot and a perspective pilot as well!
GOD SPEED to those and Blessing to their families
PC12

Isn't it comforting to know that when you die there will be a thread written about you at flightinfo.com?

 

[D.sanchez]

I have done Spin training in older and newer 172s.. At first, I was not comfortable to do so, but some experienced pilots showed me how to spin the 152.

So 1 day, I did some spins with a student that wanted to get the feeling of them. This was a 1980 152, tanks half full, I was 180lbs, student about 160.


First couple of spins went well. We climbed up to 5700 feet to do them, over the Gulf of Mexico.

On the last spin we did, the plane got out of control. I entered the spin with a full stall, partial power, and then full rudder deflection. The C152 tumbled over, but then suddenly gained airspeed real quickly. We went OVER the redline to apprx. 200 kts indicated.

At that point, I thought that was it and some parts are about to fly off. Fortunately, we recovered at around 1200 feet, doing a slow pullback, myself being scared of overstressing the airframe.

I never really understood how the aircraft could accelerate to over 200kts in a few seconds.

I searched the internet and found that some 152 had gotten out of control in a similar way, probably being a C.G. problem.

If I ever have such students again, I gladly will send them over to some aerobatic instructor.

An aircraft isn't spinning if it's going over 200 knots.....a spin condition requires the a/c be in a stall... Pretty scarry story none-the-less.

 

[MJPilot]

aircraft not spinning ...

yeah, I know that. I would say it was entering a spin initially, but somehow developped into a spiral.

Actually, I wanted to show the student that the airspeed is very low during a spin. But then, the speed built up quickly from around 40 kts indicated within just a few seconds.

This was indeed very scary. During the dive, we were looking at each other speechless, both of us thinking that this was it. Though he and I kept a cool head and wouldnt do anything stupid on top of that.

Besides, this is a very good friend of mine.

Needless to say that I never will intentionally spin a C152 ever again.

 

[CX880]

Sounds like spins are a thrill, haven't done them. Are they really that necessary?

 

[Snakum]

Sounds like spins are a thrill, haven't done them. Are they really that necessary?

I think they are. If you haven't seen one and gone thru the recovery procedures, what happens one day when you roll over and start turning because you got too slow in a turn? If you've seen it and done it, you at least have half a chance, if you have enough room before hitting dirt. Not being exposed to them, most of us will take way too long to respond. They freak people out the first time.

About C152s ... I have spun in C150s and C152s, and in fact, I learned to do it on my own by reading about the entry and recovery here a long time ago. I have always been told they were very safe for spins. The newer 172s are hard to spin, though, and I never have been able to make one do it, cleanly. I almost peed my pants once trying to spin a new SP and just wound up inverted instead.

 

[CX880]

\ I have always been told they were very safe for spins. The newer 172s are hard to spin, though, and I never have been able to make one do it, cleanly. I almost peed my pants once trying to spin a new SP and just wound up inverted instead.

Yea the 172s are said to be very stable and it's easy to get out of a spin. Howabout the light twins what's the experience like with those?

 

[Snakum]

I don't think spins in a multi-engine aircraft is anything I want to be a part of.

 

[jumppilot]

This thread suprises me. I recall doing spin training as both a student and a CFI in a C152. I never had any issues.

I agree.

I would routinely spin private students so they could see what it was.

I don't know the details of the PanAm incident, but for all of the posters talking about CFIs not doing spins, its dangerous, etc...

In a 152, it is as simple as grabbing a beer at the bar....You execute it successfully without thinking.

 

[MJPilot]

Honestly, I would feel much more comfortable in the older 172s teaching spins. Even the new ones felt better than the 152, which seemed very "nervous" in a spin.

I have over 4000 hours as a CFI, but none of my students ever got anywhere close to an unintentional spin.

Most Twins are not approved for spins.

 

[BRIGADEAVIATOR]

I have had better luck spinning a 152 than a 172. With a 172 they are so stable, you litterally have to cross control the aircraft before you can spin it, and to recover just let go of the controls and it will bring it back to normal.

 

[Andrew_VT]

Covering their eyes? come on! this is in a spin you are going to do this and wait for them to react?...they're still going to have one hand on the controls. I make it clear to all my students if they freeze up and dont let go when i tell them I WILL hurt them. I've always told myself i will pull on their earlobe hard, but if it came down to it I'm afraid i might find myself doing something worse like going for their adams apple or eyes. What i dont want to do is be reserved when the airpeed needle is approaching red-line fast. In that situation I'm not just going to cover their eyes, that sounds like bringing a BB gun to a standoff.

 

[Wiggums]

Covering their eyes? come on! this is in a spin you are going to do this and wait for them to react?...they're still going to have one hand on the controls. I make it clear to all my students if they freeze up and dont let go when i tell them I WILL hurt them. I've always told myself i will pull on their earlobe hard, but if it came down to it I'm afraid i might find myself doing something worse like going for their adams apple or eyes. What i dont want to do is be reserved when the airpeed needle is approaching red-line fast. In that situation I'm not just going to cover their eyes, that sounds like bringing a BB gun to a standoff.

You know how when your doctor taps your knee and you kick your leg? Well it's the same deal with covering the eyes.

For most animals that have eyes there are involuntary reflexes that occur when the eyes are threatened. First is to close the eyelids. Then with humans it is to remove the obstruction. Your student won't think, it's a very strong reflex.

You think you are going to do battle with someone in a 152 over the controls when they are hopped up on ad reline? Good luck with that one. Plus now you don't have to threaten bodily harm before the student's first lesson. They are more likely to injure you by freezing on a landing then during a spin

 

[acaTerry]

I make it clear to all my students if they freeze up and dont let go when i tell them I WILL hurt them.

I find this to be a deterrent to students who "would have" flown with you. I found that occaisonal, unnanounced / for-no-reason-at-all "My airplane" calls, even during maneuvers trained them well to let go as soon as they heard it. Stimulus...response...stimulus...response. Your method seems rather harsh and confrontational for a student pilot who may already be a little apprehensive.

 

[Ill Mitch]

Yesterday I was undergoing CFI training in a Champ, and my instructor showed me how to karate chop the student in the neck. (Something he has had to do in the past)

When you do it, you gotta say "Judo Chop!", like Austin Powers.

I had a student in a Citabria that froze on the controls during the recovery from a power off stall, which was weird cuz it was only the millionth time we have done them.

I said the "My airplane" thing a few times, grabbed the stick and tried to gently nudge it back, hoping he would get the hint. Meantime, he is straight-armed on the control, the engine is running full power, and the nose is going over pretty fast.
Hmm, I think. I finally clipped him in the back of the head, not hard enough to do damage, but hard enough to sting. He took his right hand off the stick to rub the back of his head.

 

[acaTerry]

When you do it, you gotta say "Judo Chop!", like Austin Powers.

No NO NO! Its ju- DO CHOPP! Don't forget the emphasis on the last syllabil (ashamed of myself for spelling) or they'll never take you seriously. Personally, I think you work for Dr. Evil.
On a more serious note, I think there are better ways than chopping a throat (even though primary instructing makes it tempting!). Try grasping the skin between his nostrils and pulling down...OUCH. Painful, but harmless.

 

[Ill Mitch]

No NO NO! Its ju- DO CHOPP! Don't forget the emphasis on the last syllabil (ashamed of myself for spelling) or they'll never take you seriously. Personally, I think you work for Dr. Evil.
On a more serious note, I think there are better ways than chopping a throat (even though primary instructing makes it tempting!). Try grasping the skin between his nostrils and pulling down...OUCH. Painful, but harmless.

Actually, Dr. Evil works for me. I'm the guy behind the scenes pulling the strings, mmm-hmm, know what I be saying?

I like the nostril thing. You could also do a wet william on him or her, but then you would get ear wax on your finger. But, it would wake them up.

 

[Da Vinci]

i have a very black/white opinion on this...no gray. studen 'freezes' once, VERY serious conversation w/ instructor and chief pilot. second time...student is expelled.

now...in this age of money for the school and hours for the CFI, who on earth would kick out a perfectly good paying warm body...or for that matter a warm body who's giving a CFI hours.

sad, and i'm not writting flame bait here...but i knew of an older guy who was in my school way back and took over 150 hours to get his instrument - only a week later, in IMC, at the training airport he went missed 10? times before tower requested if he had fuel available he divert to ATL...he advised he had enough fuel and crashed several miles from ATL. now...why was that studen allowed to fly IMC?

freezing at the controls just isn't a reaction that a pilot should ever have...just my opinion.

my heart goes out to both pilots. personally i hate spins...did them...got sick and hope i'll never have to do them again.