Owning a Cessna 152

[Archer]

I've been thinking of this for a while. I'm a junior in college right now, and buying a 152 seems a pretty good idea to build up a lot of time and go through training for cheaper.

It is one of the few airplanes (if you can call it that ) that you could buy and operate for very very low costs, and you could end up saving money even if you don't fly it that often.

It seems that fixed costs will be as much as an expensive new car. Well, around 2500 buck/year including insurance, tiedown/hangar, and maintenence. (Please tell me if that is a reasonable figure btw)

And variable costs should be around 10 bucks/hour for fuel and oil mainly.

Now my question, do you really have to consider saving for propeller, avionics and engine overhouls for each flight hour?

What if you sell it and it still has over 1000 hour before it needs an overhaul?

Could you end up owning an airplane for 2500 grand fixed, and 10 bucks/hour variable cost?

And is the 2 seater, 105 HP, 100 kt 300 NM 152 a wise choice compared to a loner range, faster, 4 (well 3 adult) seater for say 30 or 35 000 bucks...with much higher ownership costs?

Getting ratings and licences while owning a 152 would be much cheaper right? as you would be essentially paying 25 bucks/hour if you fly the plane 200 hours a year, with a 2500$/year and 12$/hour cost.

25 bucks/hour + say 35 bucks/hour for CFI. That's 60 bucks/hour rather than what I am paying now about 100 bucks/hour.

40 bucks/hour saved.

So an instrument rating would cost you 35 x 60 + 15 x 25 = 2475 bucks ( if it takes you 35 dual and 15 on your own that is)

rather than some 4500 bucks.

That's some 2000 bucks saved...

well, I'm just wondering if investing in a 152 as a college student would be better/cheaper than renting planes...

A 152 has only 2 seats...so that's the only thing that would bother me...but if I have to save 40 bucks/hour for dual and some 40 bucks/hour for rental...

it might be worth it...

your thoughts?

thanx

Archer

 

[HappyFlying]

Archer,
I have owned a 150 for about three years. Depending on where you live, fuel will run you more than $10/hr. My current fuel cost is almost $17/hr. As far as keeping a reserve fund for overhaul and avionics, it's pay now or pay later. Prop funds are more of a concern for constant-speed props. If you sell it with 1000 hrs left before overhaul you can pocket it. Just remember that the number of hours on the engine have a large impact on the value of the airplane. If you fly the crap out of it you can bring the value down due to engine hours faster than it appreciates. My 150 is worth about $2000 more than I paid for it considering the appreciation and deducting for the increased time on it. I don't know about other planes, but mine is a real peach of a 150. I didn't buy it to build time and sell it. Yes, I'm building time that helped me get my first job but I plan to keep it. Most of my socializing involves flying so it is also a means of recreation for me. I have chronic grass stain on my prop tips from Saturday morning pancake fly-ins at little grass strips.

I have found that two seats is all I ever need. ****DISCLAIMER - A 152 CANNOT FLY WITH TWO BIG FAT BUTTS IN IT. HEED YOUR WEIGHT AND BALANCE OR IT WILL BITE THE BIG BUTTS ONE DAY.*** Most of the fly outs I go on have only 2 people in the 182s, Cherokees, and even the Cherokee 6 that goes. As far as splitting the cost four ways to go on a trip, most of the people that are interested in that kind of thing are pilots too. If they're paying they would like to be logging time. Sitting in the backseat is never loggable. At least the two up front can safety pilot for each other so both can log time. Don't count on your non-flying friends to chip in. They'll figure out real fast that the are shelling out a bunch of jack with little in return. They definitely will not like having to pay for a rental car to get home when the weather turns crappy while eating your $100 hamburger. Often an IFR rating just allows you to get farther from home in a light plane before the weather puts you on the ground.

An airplane's sole purpose in life is to cost its owner money everytime it wants to. It's like having a horse you can't shoot. I have a nav/comm off being repaired right now that worked great right up until it decided to cost me 900 bucks. It is something all the time. If you don't fix things as they break you will wake up one day and find an airplane that needs more repair than it's worth. It is better to eat that elephant one bite at a time instead of choking on it all at once. I keep a $1500 "Defecation Occurs" fund for the expected unexpected. I'm not wealthy now but I couldn't imagine handling all that when I was in college. If you have rich parents that will pay for it, buy you a plane and have a good time. Otherwise if it flies, floats or flirts(being polite here guys) you're better off renting it. I have been to the ATM - I speak from experience.

Hope this helps,

HappyFlying

 

[tarp]

You may want to do some searching on old threads. Chas went through a whole buying experience on this board and finally got his Be-23. You could write a book on his experience just using the threads.

Now not to discourage you - but planes do cost real money.

1.) Talk to an insurance group like AOPA Insurance, Avemco (if they're still in business) or find an Aviation Insurance Broker. Get a real cost for an airplane and your current status. Tell them. You are a student, you want to buy and operate a 1975 C-152. I'm thinking the cost will be somewhere in the $1500-2000 range for an annual premium. The fact that you are a student will cause your payments to be much higher.

2.) Determine your tiedown/hangar costs near you. I live in a rather expensive area on the east coast. Tiedowns are $100/mnth at our airport if you get off the waiting list. Hangars are $290-350/mth.

3.) Although Toyota seems to have built a mechanical unit that runs for 4-5 years without any problems, the rule for things that move is that they break. My maintenance costs run from $7.00 to $14.00 per hour depending on the year. In airplanes, radios are fickle at best, there are little tires that take a beating, plastic things break, light bulbs get shaken to death before they burn out, etc. etc. My maintenance COST does not count my engine reserve of $7.50/hr.

4.) 200 hours a year is a lot of flying for one person in one plane especially VFR flying. Consider where you live. In Arizona, OK there are 362 VFR flying days a year. On the West coast of Oregon, there are about 120 VFR flying days. In the northeast in the winter every third day is IFR and in the summer about every 4th or 5th day is IFR. That severely cuts into your schedule. A single owner should never plan beyond 100-120 hours of utility per year. Now if you are going to get 1-2 other pilots in the gig with you, the numbers make a whole lot more sense.

5.) You said ratings with an "s". A C-152 is a fine airplane. It will treat you well through your private. It will be great to practice Commercial maneuvers in. However, the plane is slow and roady in IFR and although you CAN do your instrument rating in a C-152 I think you will want to step up a notch. Also, consider that an IFR equipped C-152 will be a more expensive purchase (either initial or with radio add-ins) and you will have more things that can break in a moving vehicle (back to #3). --explaining "roady" - when you get in actual IMC, the light weight and short wing span make the C-152 bounce a lot more - also the slow approach speeds make you work harder on an ILS since you have to hold the glideslope longer and unfortunately you won't want to practice where there is a lot of faster moving traffic. ATC is not real happy with 65kts down the ILS. I'm all for hard work and discipline but the mighty C-152 is a hand full when it gets busy.

So research your numbers again. Many FBO's charge just about $5.00 more than costs on the airplanes - sometimes with insurance rates rising as fast as they are, it's hard to beat the FBO even when paying their profit. Would I buy the plane like you are proposing - sure! 65 hours of PPL work, 50-60 hours of X-C just for fun, the pride of ownership, buying and selling experience. Have a lot of fun - but remember you are paying to have fun. Like boat owners, golfers, skiiers, etc - there's a cost associated with having all that fun. Just make sure you stay in your budget for fun.

 

[bobbysamd]

Airplane ownership

I've never owned an airplane, but I've been around people who have. The first thing I learned about airplane ownership is they nickel-and-dime you to death. Airplane are not like cars, wherein you can let things go for a while until the next oil change. If something breaks on an airplane, you either fix it or don't fly. I second Tarp's comment emphatically about avionics. Don't forget about ADs, which you have to fix.

One other point about aircraft maintenance is a kind of Catch-.22. To keep the airplane well maintained you have to fly it. Oils and fluids have to get to the moving parts and grommets and bushings and the like. But, to fly the airplane you have to maintain it, i.e., oil changes, annuals, 100-hours, etc.

Finally, I've heard it said that the second happiest day of an aircraft owner's life is when he buys the airplane and the happiest day of his life is when he sells it. Food for thought.

 

[Eric]

Consider.....

I don't back the validity of this statement as I have no facts, but my boss said that the overhaul on our 150 will cost ~18,000 and the plane is only valued at 14,500.

something to consider....

If that overhaul cost is accurate, I would definetly factor that in when buying your 150 that you flew the pants off of

 

[RightPedal]

I was one lucky sucker as an aircraft owner. I had an M-4 Maule for six years. My average hourly cost the first year (200+hours)was just shy of $45.00/hr. It had a Franklin 220 hp engine (darn good motor BTW). In that six years the most expensive annual was $875. I must add that I had friends in the business. I did most all the work under the watchful eye's of an A&P-IA. I paid $16,000 for it. Flew it 1200+/- hr's and sold it for $13,500. Bad thing was the new owner put another $15,000 or so in the overhaule and sold it for $49,500, wish I could have done that. If I remember correctly, those 1200hr cost me less than $50hr. That was pretty good considering rental on a C-172 was $75hr. and I had a high performance, STOL aircraft that was more fun than a red head. The way I see it, after you own an airplane the rental game is just no fun. I will have another one some day I hope.

 

[HappyFlying]

Tarp is absolutely correct in his explanation of the 152 being "Roady." I fly my approaches with all the speed the squirrels can produce. It is easier for me and ATC appreciates it. I've flown my 150 in IMC a whole lot but I pick my battles carefully. IMC in turbulence can be more than a handfull. It is not the best airframe to put in the clouds. Another thing to consider is the lack of fuel capacity. This can get you in serious trouble if your intended destination ends up below minimums you might not be able to divert very far.

Good Luck,
HappyFlying

 

[Archer]

Yeah, I can imagine a 700 or so lb airplane having problems in IMC and turbulence.

That is one of the things that makes me wonder wether the low cost (relative that is) of a 152 is worth it's lesser safety.

108 HP engine or whatever it is, no more than 118 I think, with a very light airplane can be dangerous and unsafe I would think in weather that is not completely VFR or at least MVFR.

The 2 seat thing would bother me only a little, as I have many friends that are willing to fly as passengers. Hell, I was thinking of getting my multi after some time as an PP/ASEL and splitting the flying cost between me and 4 passengers.

Insurance I would guess would be around 1 to 2 grand a year. I would buy this plane and buy insurance as a PP not a student pilot. I'm nearly done with my PPL.

So I guess it would be more with maintenance and hangar fees. Probably around 5 grand as you ppl said.

If fuel burn is about 6 gph, it would cost me about 17 bucks / hour around here.

And I do see the points you ppl made. Training for IR or Commercial won't be all that appropriate in a 152. Especially for the complex time required for commercial...

The only real reason the 152 is attractive is the 25 grand intitial cost for a pretty **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** good plane. You can get a very very good 152 for 30 grand max. That is with very little TSMO, and for 25 grand with some 1000+ hours till a major overhaul.


The other thing that would worry me, is the inexperience of owning a plane safety wise. Can you go up to your hanger, pull your 152 out, do a runup, everything looks good, preflight and all, and just take-off, no worries, and change oil when it needs to be changed and fuel it up?

When do you know when something might be wrong and a hazard to your safety?

In FBOs, they usually almost guarantee safety in their planes, with many people reporting problems, mechanics checking it often etc...

as an owner, it's all up to you...


I don't know, maybe I should wait till I have some 200 grand in my life to spend, and get myself I nice, not too old, Seneca II or something...

ARcher

 

[HappyFlying]

Archer,
One of the things I like best about owning my bugchaser is knowing for sure what condition it's in. I am the only one that flies it and I know every nut, bolt, and sound it has. I know what the oil and vacuum pressure normally reads. If there is any change in anything I'll notice it. I also can tell you to the tenth of an hour when it should need another quart of oil. If it changes I find out why. The first annual I asked to do an owner assisted annual so that I could learn more about my plane. I have a great mechanic that doesn't mind answering hundreds of questions and showing me anything he thinks I should know. I still help out on the annual to keep tabs on the health of the ChickenMobile. I already know that I will need brake rotors at the next annual so they are sitting on my workbench already. As an owner I feel confident enough to take my plane on 3000 NM trips twice a year.

Most FBOs are pretty good about their maintenance. Some do try to cut corners. It can be hard to tell if they do. Also, squawks can go unreported more than you realize. Many pilots don't even recognize something as being abnormal. If their instructor didn't say anything about the oil all over the cowling then it must be OK right? If a renter breaks something, he sure as heck isn't going to squawk it. The more pilots flying an airplane the more problems it has. Ask anyone that has ever belonged to a large flying club and they'll tell you horror stories. I watched a club Skyhawk go out with three different pilots one day with a completely flat nose strut. The same club had a bent firewall on a Skylane and noone seemed to know how or when it happened. Come to think of it, it reminds me of how I tend to drive rental cars.

HappyFlying

 

[SelectZoneFive]

It also helps if you can get a rich freind who already owns a plane to let you fly it at cost.

They can be hard to find though.

Joking aside, my freind did own one, and in the end gave it up as he could not beat the local FBO's prices.

 

[DIRT]

C150/152

Allowing 2500 dollars a year fixed cost should be plenty barring any major maintenance, your cost per hour will probably be closer to 16 - 18 dollars per hour depending on your fuel cost. As for Tarp I don't know what airport people are paying that much money for tiedown / hangar space but if you are willing to drive 20 miles to a smaller less congested airport I feel sure you can get a tiedown for about 50 dollars per month and a T Hangar for around 140 - 150 per month, I pay 90 dollars a month for a T hangar and I think tiedown on the ramp is 40 dollars per month but I live in ATL and the cost around here is pretty cheap compared to the other areas. Eric, if your boss payed or pays 18,000 dollars to overhaul a O-235 he is smoking crack. Also Archer don't let all these pessimist on this board dissuade you from aircraft ownership while airplanes are very expensive there is a certain sense of pride that comes with ownership. Also, I have not done any of my instrument training in my C150 I can imagine Tarp is right about it being a bit difficult.
Good luck

 

[LearLove]

Buying ????

HappyFlying and others that have an airplane. Did you guys finance/borrow $$$ for your airplane or pay outright.

For the last year I've been planning on getting a 150 but can't seem to save enough. Something always comes up, need new car (the highschool 12 year old trooper fell apart almost 320000 miles) got downgraded, rent went up, now a pay cut 9.5 %. I've looked at aopa, credit union and other for 10 yr. loans of 18000 or so and got like 11.2 to 11.5 with 10% down. Is this about right? My credit is excellent no credit card bills, no school bills, just a car payment and rent. Also I'm going to move hame in 4 months so rent and all is gone which will help. I fugure my monthly costs with a loan would be as follows based on 10 hours month.

Loan payment - 220
gas 2.6*6*10=156
tie down =50
insurance =450yr/12=38
oil = 8
mx = 2000/12=166
eng reserve = Mid eng with 900 hrs left so 900 to 1800tbo at 12000 for amajor would be 900/10=90months so 12000/90=133


so we have 220+156+50+38+8+166+133 = 771
or 77.1 an hour (high becuase of the loan)

or 120 hours/year at 9252

take out the loan and get 771-220=551 or 55.1 an hour.

any advice on taking a loan out on your 401k. I don't think I want to do this. I've got 15900 +/- but I'm 27 and can make it up easy in the next few years ans not see much of a long term effect.

Any comments on the numbers from thoes who have been through this?

Thanks

 

[310]

your numbers are in the ballpark- don't try to justify the expense- if you can do it and want to - buy. get a good prebuy inspection done by a I/A that has not maintained the airplane in question and does not even know the seller- and not a 3 hour lookabout- check for hidden corrosion etc etc.

 

[HappyFlying]

Lear Love,

I financed my 150 on a 7 year loan with 20% down. I went through Dorr Aviation (Found them in Trade-a Plane) but the loan is actually from 1st Victoria National Bank in Texas. It was an easy process to get the loan approved and the paperwork prepared. Dorr Aviation took care of all of the details. I just had the pre-buy done and wrote the seller a check for the down payment. Many of the places that do aircraft loans won't mess with anything as small/cheap as a 150. Dorr will do the loan for about any length of time you want.

I really enjoy my airplane and will give up eating and driving before giving up the 150. I am lucky to be in with a group of pilots that get together and fly on any day that they can safely open the hangar doors. I'm building time as well but the main thing is that I'm having a blast doing it. If I never get to fly anything bigger than the B100 I fly now, I won't feel cheated. Because I am indeed happy flying. If you want to own your own plane then make it a priority. Have fun!

HappyFlying

 

[Joseph II]

I was considering a C150 or C152 myself. What do you think...

I have my Comm ASEL, Inst and CFI-A.

My prospects would be to fly to build time and if possible to
instruct at least in the winter (with 1/2 tanks mind you). I can't get a job instructing now because the market is saturated. If I had my own aircraft, I could be a free-lance instructor. A long term goal is to own a flight school or start an affordable flying club. My belief is that one can't start a school or club if you don't have any aircraft.

1. What will the approximate insurance costs to get just myself insured vs insuring the aircraft for training and allowing students to solo?

2. I live in Colorado, 5,800' MSL altitude. Is the density altitude going to be too high in the summer even for myself to fly solo? We can get to 9000' density altitudes here.

3. I want to park the aircraft outside to save money but we get hail in the summer. Is there a cover you can buy for your plane? If not, and this sounds silly, but can you put blankets over the plane to protect it?

4. Since I already have 275 hours ASEL, with my CFI, would it be more adventageous to spend the cash on the Comm-Multi and spend all of my money on twin time?

5. I don't get to fly much now mainly because spending $50/hour to fly is a lot of money! If I own a plane, I beilieve it will motivate me to work more overtime at work to go flying.

Thanks!
Joe

 

[HappyFlying]

Joseph II,
I can't answer all your questions but I can tell you that a 150/152 at your elevation would be a bad choice. I have flown mine with the density altitude around 6000' and it was frightening. It will not climb. I took off that morning with a 3500' DA and when I landed I for fuel, I tied the plane down and took a long nap in the FBO until it cooled down that night. There is no way I would even attempt to fly it in Colorado. You can get away with flying in high and hot in some airplanes that have power to spare but not in a 150/152. I'm glad that I live at 1500' MSL in good ole Tennessee so I seldom have to worry about density altitude when I'm flying by myself. I still have to consider it in the summer if I have a passenger.

Unfortunately your location will be a limiting factor in your choice of airplanes. There are 150HP 150s out there but they are priced pretty close to a Skyhawk. I've flown a couple and loved the performance. If you can find one, that might be a good pick. I checked on insurance two years ago for having my little brother learn to fly (and solo) and it was going to run me over $4000 annually. I understand that everything has gone up since then. As far as the hail, it is always a gamble. Mine is on tie down because I can't get hangar space but I pay the 30 bucks a night to get it put in the corporate hangar when a nasty line of stuff is likely to gallop through.

I hope this helps,
HappyFlying

 

[azpilot]

What if you sell it and it still has over 1000 hour before it needs an overhaul?

What if the engine takes a dump 10 hours after owning it? Just because an engine has a 2000 TBO doesn't mean it will make it to 2000 hours. Mine has but there are no guarantees. With that said owning has worked well for me but I have had the capital to afford repairs as well. 1st annual $2500+ last annual $500. I knew going in the first annual was going to be expensive because I planned on replacing the landing gear donuts on my plane.

First year I flew 150 hours (Hourly cost w/o engine reserve $70/hr)
Last year I flew 225 so my averaged costs went way down. (Hourly cost w/o engine reserve ($43 an hour) That cost includes loan payment, insurance, gas, tie down, misc. and any parts and labor for repairs.

I have a nice 4 place aircraft that is IFR and I can go places in it. I don't think I would want to sit in a 152 for that many hours.

Flight school rental aircraft are getting expensive and if you have the capital and know you will fly at least 100 hours a year it could be worth it. If you move forward on a plane make sure you spend the money for a thorough pre-buy inspection. That might cost you $500 but think of what you will save in repairs if something is found. A friend of mine did that on a Baron and walked away. Plane had at least $15,000 worth of required work. Owner didn't want to lower to the price so "see ya" and she was out $500.

Whatever you do don't do a leaseback with a flight school. Not worth it. Someone else mentioned Chas's questions and there have been other posts on leasebacks.

Good luck,
AZPilot

 

[Joseph II]

HappyFlying

Thanks for your input. I agree with you about climb performance and density altitude. On a really hot summer day, you will be hard pressed to find 2 people flying in anything smaller then a 180hp aircraft. C152's are not common out here but I've heard of pilots taking them over the first set of "hills" which can top out at 9,000' easially.