Owner Speaks

[beytzim]

To NJA Owner,

The reason you are getting flamed is due to the credibility question. Even though this web site is anonymous, many of us know each other and speak outside of this board. In addition, because the aviation community is 'a small world', every one knows someone who knows someone. The truth about one's background or current position is brought up soon enough.

To claim you are an NJA owner is pretty ballsy. Not to show REAL proof is unfortunate for you and us. If we truly believed you were an Owner, these posts would be significantly nicer and more respectful.

Better luck next time, my friend.

 

[NJAowner]

I'll admit... it did take some guts to come onto this board and tell all of you I am an owner. I thought I could open a dialogue; some of you have started in private and that is good. Others o nthis board flame me in public yet say the opposite in PM. Too embarrassed?

I have never asked one of you to actually prove you are a NJA pilot. I'm sure at leat 1/2 of you who claim you area only dream of it. If I gave you my tail #, you would claim I got the info off the FAA web site. If I sent you a copy of my Aircraft Bill of Sale (Form 8050-2, OMB approved form 2120-004) signed by David Beach, Sr. VP, Executive Jet Sales (yes, I am pre NJA, I am from the EJA days) you would say it was a copy. If I showed up on your plane you would say someone let me use their plane. I have described my monthly bill down to how many inches below x is y, and it x print smaller or larger than y print. I have been asked to name my onwer services team by 3 of you, none of which will verify whether I am right or wrong -- beacuse you don't know. I give first names -- one of you asks for last names. One of you asks which one I speak to most. I have been asked the color of the hand towels in the Excel lav (pilots would know this).

Timebuilder said he recommends that NJ pilot start a portal where pilots and owners can discuss issues. BINGO. That was all I have been trying to do. But we can't get off square 1.

And many of you missed my comment even after I have clarified it 2 or 3 times. I have absolutely, positivley no problem with a pilot acting proactively. I encourage it and support it. My only complaint was that the pilot told Columbus I did not like the food. I wpent 20 minutes on the phone with COlumbus before I found out why. They called to check on catering, what did I order, how was the quality, how did it compare with my chicken caeser salad from Rudy's, from Miami, from MDW. Size, portion, dressing (on the side or on top to wilt the lettuce). Sandwich tray ..what types of condiments, bread, rolls, amount of meat be sandwich, size of the sandwich (was it cut into enough pieces); big enough for me but was it too large for the kids; if the right size for the kids was it too small for my wife and I; how did the quality of the cold cuts compare with the quality of cold cuts from Rudy's (since we fly in or out of NJ for most flight, they used Rudy's as our baseline); what about extra goodies packed with the food; presentation; was it in a clean box of a recycled french fry box; was it fresh. Did I know where the catering came from in this town. What did I think. WHat are the bestter restaurants in town. What are the better deli/take out in town (there is none it is a small town). Stop..stop..stop. Why are you asking me all these questions I asked (I haven't been grilled that hard since my parents asked me questions in high school). "We want to make sure you are happy with the catering .. we have heard otherwise". From whom, "the captain of your flight last Sunday said you and your wife were very hunappy with the catering. We wnt to make sure you are happy in the future and strive to meet your expectations on every flight" (I may be off by a word or 2 in quotes). All fine and dandy until I found out that the piot complained and she had complained to me in flight about hers. That's where this all started.

Please give me some of the fu*king respect I have shown you. (I apologize for venting).

 

[Timebuilder]

All fine and dandy until I found out that the piot complained and she had complained to me in flight about hers. That's where this all started.

I think I would have proactively called management myself, and told them that you had not complained, but that the food was not up to standard.

 

[NJAowner]

BINGO! Thank you!

But I guess the pilot did want to be a whiner at NJA.

The Devils just finished regulation with the Ducks 0-0 so I am back at the keyboard for a few minutes. And no, an owner wouldn't necessarily use his hours to go to the game. I only have 100 hour for business and pleasure and the number of Excel hours to get from NJ to Anaheim isn't worth is for this game. I use 10+ (round trip) everytime I go to my vacation home in the Rockies. I am not flush with hours. I'm not complaining but 100 hours is not that much when you use 10 at a shot. Of course if I had a palce in Nantucket or Bar Harbor I would ohnly use 2 per round trip. Call it marital compromise. When the NY Jets get to the Super Bowl is a completely different story. **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** the hours .. that's once in a lifetime!!!!!!!

OK.. I live in NJ. That won't give me away since the founder has sold many shares here.

 

[CounterGirl]

OK, I'm going to jump in here....I'm obviously not a NJ pilot, but I work with them on a daily basis, and I feel I have a little insight as to what goes on for their trips.

NJAowner: you are going the wrong direction in pushing for a portal where issues can be discussed. This message board probably won't make that happen--you need to talk to Net Jets directly and tell them your ideas.

As for the catering incident you have often mentioned, it sounds to me like that was a one-time thing that has been over-expanded. I'm sure the five minute phone call from owner services did not disrupt your daily routine and take up too much time (after all, you seem to have time to 'monitor' this board!). It was probably taken out of context anyway (based on all the NJ pilots I know, I think Timebuilder's interpretation of that incident is most likely).

If you only knew all the stuff your pilots do for you behind the scenes, this little incident wouldn't be such a big deal! I have seen NJ pilots frantically on the phone with Columbus, caterers, limo drivers, etc., and cleaning the planes up and gathering the 'right' newpapers.....trying to get things in order for the flights! Trust me, these guys and gals work hard to make things go smoothly, but I bet 9 times out of 10 you NEVER see the things that go on before you arrive at the airport!

I must say that I applaud you for taking an active interest in the company you invest so much money in; but I would also venture to say you are in the minority--I doubt most owners really care about the logistics end of things. But please, don't turn one negative incident into a reason to vent on this board to a bunch of pilots who bust their butts for you.

 

[NJAowner]

Countergirl--- everyone has missed that I have said probably 4 or 5 times that most (if not almost all) of the pilots have been great. I just started this thread to find out what owners do that irk them the most and vent, and vice versa. I know they do a lot, especially flying a highly expensive, complicated piece of equipment (especially this spring in the NE) through fog, rain, snow etc. THANK YOU!!! My kids clap for the pilots and say scream "THANK YOU PILOTS" every single time we land. I appreciate them more than you know, and took alot of grief on this board, when after hearing their $$ complaints and contract issues for months, suggested an alternative to help them get closer to what they want. And I was skewered alive like a shish-ka-bob. AllI basically said was to try and think outside the box.

Why have a I monitored this board... I found out about it last summer and did not speak up until last week. I, my family and colleagues, fly NJA, and I have $1MM plus tied up in a plane, and send huge monthly checks. I like to keep tabs on it even tough, I admit, I do not believe everything on this site.

And you would be surprised, more of the non-Fortune 100 owners who own shares care more about NJA and the pilots than you think (all of us without our own flight departments). The pilots on this board seem too tied up in their animosity to admit that the owners do care.

Thanks for you input.

 

[English]

NJAowner,

Maybe you should consider selling your share and buying a share at our fractional.

Ok, Ok, I'm just kidding, everyone....

(wink wink)

 

[Jolimon]

Salary

Being a fractional pilot I understand the pay issue. Most straight corporate pilots flying the same aircraft are making 10-20k more. What I have come to realize is this; a corporate pilot typically does not have any kind of schedule, more importantly, there is not one corporate pilot that I know from GV's to Citations that has not been laid off or is not worried about being laid off. The fractional pilot at least does not have to worry about being out of a job if the CEO screws up the accounting. I have also come to realize that regardless how much we are paid, I will always want more!!!

 

[Mr.Doolittle]

MR OWNER

Mr.Owner,

First of all pilots are never happy...

Second, union or no union pilots are never happy...

Third, It's people like you that have wrecked the flying industry.

You over pay a for service that was over sold, is improperly managed, has poor cashflow and comes with uncertanty. Corporations fend off this type of business on a daily basis trying to protect and perpetuate their own flight dept's. Don't complain about the expense of your ownership, you signed the contract. History shows that you will always pay more for fractional ownership than you would if you had your own dept. (This would obviously never come up during contract negotiations with your provider). If you think differently, they really got to you.....

 

[Timebuilder]

While I currently don't work for a fractional (I'm hoping for a phone call or interview letter), I can tell you a few reasons why fractionals are successful.

Most people and smaller companies could never justify the expense of an entire airplane. A piece of one is within their reach, though.

Secondly, having a "flight department" requires a certain economy of scale, in that operating a corporate airplane has a whole host of other expenses attached to it. Those expenses become more reasonable if the department needs to operate several airplanes, such at WalMart does.

There is a convenience attached to having a share of an aircraft that owning one cannot have. Remember that old saw about if it floats, flys, or.... you should rent it? For many customers, paying a little more per hour in order to have the convenience of not having to manage the airplane is a blessing.

 

[Live4flyng]

It isn't always about money

CounterGirl,

Thanks for your perspective. Is it Scottsdales' Corparate Jets where you are? If so, I love that place.

NJA Owner,

With all due respect Sir, thinking outside the box is not an option without $$ and the consent of management. Unless ofcourse you don't mind losing your job.

Joliman,

Not sure which fractional it is that you fly for, but for the record, fractionals have laid off pilots. By the end of the year, there is also concern that maybe one or two of the fractionals may not even be around.

Mr Doolittle,

Your name speaks for its' self. Everything you have said couldn't be any further from the truth. How can you overpay for the safety, security and convenience of you and your family. So worry no more about the cost of fractionals and get back to pushing that 747 through the sky until that major airline goes broke!

Timebuilder,

It would be an honor to fly with you anytime. With your attitude, it's only a matter of time before you get that interview. Good luck in your search.

Griz,

Let's not forget the fact that you can have more than one airplane in the sky at the same time with the fractional ownership. You can't do that by owning your own airplane, unless you own two.

Sometimes it's about survival.

 

[rettofly]

Re: Salary

The fractional pilot at least does not have to worry about being out of a job if the CEO screws up the accounting.


Try telling that to the 40+ EJM pilots who just hit the street.

 

[Timebuilder]

Are you saying that EJM had a layoff because of bad accounting?

 

[NJAowner]

I don't know what he thought - but many companies do have some of their planes on the market lately and also are "accounting chalenged": Lucent, Avaya, Tyco, CSX, Qwest and others

 

[Diesel]

The ejm guys new last year that they were getting laid off. It wasn't really that big of a secret.

njaowner. I've been lurking watching your posts and I still don't believe that your an owner. If you were an owner you'd be so disgusted with our current pay that you would be saying something about it to the right people.

NJA has standards when it comes to catering. I beleive that what might have happened is that the catering that was ordered was not up to nja standards. This can happen quite a bit. The remedy is that we will ferry the catering in on the inbound flight. This keeps the quality very high and keeps the owners happy. Once again things go on behind the scenes that owners will never see.

You might not be the only owner that's going to fly out of that airport. This way when someone else flies out of there the computers will know that the catering sucks there.

All fractionals stirve to make sure their owners have the best experience possible. When the crap hits the fan it's the pilots who step infront of the bullet and recieve the wall of spit.

Give us some respect and let us do our job and make your experience the best possible.

 

[rettofly]

The ejm guys new last year that they were getting laid off. It wasn't really that big of a secret.

That's precisely my point. Seems like a lot more than the seven guys thay were given the opportunity to interview with NJ could have been accommodated with all that time available to phase down gradually.

 

[Diesel]

Actually acording to the EJM guys they had to get a nod from the chief pilot. He would only let a few go at a time. Basically if you didn't get his permission you couldn't interview or he would make sure you didn't get the job. I've heard this from many ejm pilots that wanted to go get the interview done over at nja.

They were also given a gradual step down based on their years experience. FIFO principle.

 

[AirWolf]

The reason that only a few EJM guys interviewed at Netjets is that there were only about 6 interview slots offered. Also Diesel, the EJM guys DID NOT know that they were going to be terminated. In fact they were told two months prior that there were not going to be any layoffs at all! The question on the future of the EJM "Float" pilots was asked directly to the CEO at a company meeting and the reply was "no layoffs" from the CEO himself. The reason that the guys were let go was because Netjets didn't have a use for them anymore, not that EJM wanted to cut them loose. It was out of EJM's control. There were also 6 interview slots at NJI, but everyone was rejected because they didn't have G-4 time. Just FYI.

 

[Diesel]

So the guys I talked to last year who told me they were getting laid off and were complaining to me they had to re interview at NJA or NJI were just well informed. We had a long discussion with some float pilots who were coming over here. The captain didn't want to come and thought he should hold his senority on NJA's side and the FO figured he should get over while the getting was good.

I also talked to another ejm that was trying to leave EJM but needed the blessing of the chief pilot. Although he was on the Falcon 50 and saw the writing on the wall.

Yes NJI did offer 6 interviews but from what I hear they were more of a courtesy interview than anything.

NJA has given EJM priority on interviews when they start interviewing again. They have allready interviewed some EJM pilots and offered jobs from what I hear.

The float pilots might have been laid off quicker than they thought but they knew it was coming.

 

[AirWolf]

Six pilots were hired by Netjets from EJM. Seven were interviewed. No more interviews until NJA starts hiring again, then maybe. You are correct that the writing was on the wall for a while, hence the question to the CEO from the "Float" pilots as to layoffs. When they were told no layoffs, everyone relaxed and let the low time guys take the seven interview slots at NJA. Trust me, if they knew it was coming, the senior guys would have taken the NJA interview slots, not the other way around. Yes, we all knew the float was shaky, but when you are told there are not going to be any layoffs.........Hopefully this will all turn around sometime soon, for everyone.