Owner Speaks

[Timebuilder]

The principal called the free market and covers not just pilots, but doctors, lawyers, bankers, fast food, planes and most other industries that operate without governmental protection and barriers to entry.

I'm glad you agree with this principle. Since the pilots are a part of the free market, we will make our concerns a part of every contract that we can, according to what the market will bear.

I can't agree, however, that taking concerns of the pilots to the fractional owners would be effective as a method of advancing pay or benefits for the pilots. In fact, I'd say that unless an owner asked, discussing these matters with ANY passenger would be both unseemly and unprofessional. At my company, we never discussed anythng regarding pay or company policies unless directly asked.

No, the best way to advance our compensation is to adddress those who manage us and write our checks; the people who hire us to do the job. At a fractional, an owner may come or go on any given day. The same principle applies at charter companies such as where I worked.

We, the pilots, still have to get up at whatever time required, and do the job.

 

[NJAowner]

I did not mean to say give us the safety talk, offer a drink and then let's discuss your pay after take off. Go to the owners the same way that the company does -- well placed informative ads in the right publications, a web site (believe it or not there are lots of owners who want to know more about the Company). Make your position known. I bet you that 9 out of 10 owners have no idea what you make (probably think you make something a little less than a 747 pilot) and don't even know about the contract issue. I knew none of this before I started reading this site and I forgot how I stumbled upon it. How about an "owner info" section on the ejapilots.com site? Remember, NJA changed the water from a round bottle to a square one and has to get adapters for all of their planes because a few owners preferred Fiji to Evian (I won't complain until you change the brand of scotch!). Come to think of it, I prefer a different brand of playing cards.

 

[banned username 2]

Me thinks you guys are getting the wool pulled over your eyes...

I am going to put my boots on...

 

[Timebuilder]

Aw, I like a good hypothetical argument.

Besides, I needed a break from studying.

 

[trainerjet]

Ahh yes....

A thankful reminder of why I would never consider the fractional world.

And Publishers is just being his anti-pilot/pro-management (but he always defends this accusation as being "pro-business"...yeah, whatever ) self, and should simply be ignored. That's what most pilots that have been on this board any length of time have learned to do.

But remember one thing, unions do not exist for the benefit of the members. Most union officials are paid better than their members, drive nicer cars than their members, and are more interested in their power and positions than their members' interests. Plese note I said "most". I do not know your union or any national or local officials. Please keep in mind they they fight for themselves and like the volunteer fireman who starts a brush fire so he can be the first to put it out, beware when the winds kicks in and the fire rages out of control.


NJA (and the other frax) are service businesses. If you want changes, work through the owners...Remember, the owners send their $$$ to NJA, and the owners step on the planes...This has a very significant and close affect on the owner himself. $$$ speaks. Not the union or the pilots, but work thorugh those who send $$$ to NJA.

Holy *#%*!! Man, if that doesn't say it all. If after reading that, anyone has any reason at all to continue responding to this dipsh!t, then you deserve each other. Have fun out there.

Oh, and thanks again for the reminder of why I would clean the toilets at the Y before flying these out of touch, clueless "owners" anywhere at all.

 

[trainerjet]

Me thinks you guys are getting the wool pulled over your eyes...

For the sake of fractional pilots everywhere, I certainly hope so. Maybe another "Mr. Concorde"?

Me thinks if no one responds, he slinks away.

 

[NJAowner]

Remove blinders & think outside the box

I am real - PM me if you need info.

I think that many of you are too tied up in this union/anti-union debate. Remove your blinders. The fact is NJA listens to its owners.

Do you believe that national politicians listen to their contiuents or their large contributors? If you some the former, take the wool off your eyes.

I try and suggest to think outside the box (I hate the cliche) and I get called a dipsh!t. Think about it. Do professional athletes make what they make because (1) they are intrinsically worth it, (2) the team owners are benevolent, (3) they have an effective union, or (4) fans are willing to pay higher prices (either in ticket prices or pay extra cable tv deals). As long as the fans will pay more, athletes make more. As long as frax owners are willing to pay more, pilots may make more. If you don't get the owners to pay more, you will never make more. Services businesses are consumer driven. You need to make the owners want to pay more, just like the fans pay more. (I would say exorbitant athlete salaries, but the athletes think they are worth it). Until the customer/fan $$ dries up, there is more $$ available for the teams and the players. Why are NFL and NBA franchises worth 50x what they were 2o years ago.

Think outside the box, and stop thinking solely in the union/non-union/company battle. Create the demand.

 

[Timebuilder]

Do professional athletes make what they make because...

Because there is a very small number of upper echelon athletes, and the owners compete for this limited resource. It isn't because fans have expressed any particular willingness to pay a certain amount for anything. Fans spend the most on the team that wins, and the team that wins has the top players, and the top players command the largest salaries, since they are a "scarce" or "limited resource".

If the fractional companies are willing to pay the top money for the best pilots, then the owners will gravitate to that fractional company that has the best pilots, the best service, and the best safety record. No owner is going to demand that his crew is paid more money, either through the use of a website or an ad in the WSJ.

The driving force for pilot pay comes from the pilot group, not from the consumer, who will always try to receive premium service for minimum cost. The fractional operator understands the quality of pilots needed for their operation, and the economies of hiring and paying for the appropriate level of skill that is required.

Owners know only what they are being asked to pay for, and if they think it is excessive or unwarranted they will take their business elsewhere. There will be no force brought to bear by owners because they think their pilots are underpaid.

I went to the NYU business school. Where did you get these quaint ideas?

 

[beytzim]

I'm pretty sure we're being had by some 'other' frax pilot who's losing HIS patience with OUR contract....

Regardless, there are a couple of holes in his theories.

1. Major airlines have thousands and thousands of resumes of pilots begging to work for them. With his previous logic of supply and demand, major airlines shouldn't pay their pilots a lot of money. After all, they can easily be replaced by 50,000 young and willing commuter pilots. But, WRONG, they still pay them 300k a year! Blows that theory out of the water! That example can be further proved by corporate GV operators that pay their pilots 200k/year....They ALSO have lots of guys begging to work for them!

2. You're wrong on saying that most owners want to know about our pay etc. BullSh*t. The owners want to get from A to B with the least amount of hassle - hence fractionals! The last thing they need in the back of their minds is worrying about if the pilot is happy with their pay. Further, with most of our owners being CEOs or managemant themselves(read: anti-union), they would certainly side with Santulli.

3. You state that you can pay the pilot as much as the owners are willing to pay. That may be true if there was a transparent pay system. But there isn't. Owners pay a managemant fee that is subdivided into dozens of subcategories. The pilots, and certainly the owners have no idea on how they are divided. Also, NJA's goal is to make a profit, not enrichen pilots. Sports teams lose money left and right - that's a poor example to follow.

Sorry, boss, you're gonna have to try better than that.

 

[Huck]

Most union officials are paid better than their members, drive nicer cars than their members, and are more interested in their power and positions than their members' interests.

Hate to interrupt here but just to clarify: I have been an ALPA member for 8 years (and my father was for 31 years). Believe it or not, 99% of union work is done by volunteers. They do not make more money, they just have less time with their kids.

This thread is a pretty good example of why I left corporate flying 10 years ago. Blows my mind that someone will pay 4 million for a state of the art jet, then demand the lowest bidders in the front seats. Too bad they don't do surgery at Walmart - think of the money you could save!