Owner Speaks

[NJAowner]

I know I will probably be flamed -- but wanted to speak out. I am an NJA owner in an Excel and have been happy for many years. The NJA service is fabulous and most of the pilots have been great people and fine pilots. I feel safe and feel comfortable bringing my business associates and family on board. I never felt comfortable with charter - not having controls in place with regard to both the planes and the pilots.

I have been monitoring this board for months and was quite astounded at the level of pay for the fractional pilots. However, it seems to be a simple case of supply and demand which all of us face in our businesses. In your case, there are just so many highly qualified pilots and so few positions.

While everyone wants to make more $$$, the fact is being an NJA owner (or ay fractional owner) is a very expensive propositon. And even at our levels, we do not want to continually have fees go up. That will drive customers from the fractionals, and the more customers = more planes = more employed pilots will help all of you.

Without turning this into the usual union thread, I said before that most pilots are great people. We have had a few surly, ornery pilots -- hey we all have bad days -- but months apart with the same pilot. I do not know whether it is jealousy or what (nor do I care), but a few pilots have a chip on their shoulders and the vast majority of them wear union pins or talk about the union or the contract at the FBO. Example -- recently a pilot who did not like the pilot lunch from the caterer in a rural city we fly into often. We thought the food was and is usually fine (not great) and we know the place it comes from (a town w/o a flight caterer). After the flight the piot complained to Columbus that we bitched that the food was bad. I did not appreciate the call from Owner Services becasue the pilot did not like the box lunch. Also, if I call Columbus and tell them that I will be 45 minutes late and they don't beep or tell you, please don't take it out on me. I don't have your beeper #.

Anyway, we appreciate the services of ALL of you. This can be a 2 way street and prodiuctive dialogue -- somethings you guys do irritate us -- and likewise owners are not perfect. I am sure some of the things we do irritate you. Let me know -- we can work together and spread the word.

 

[FL450]

Interesting. Bogus, no doubt, but interesting.

 

[NJAowner]

Honest - not bogus. PM me if you want to know facts to show that I am an owner. I have the bills to prove it (but won't show them to you). I have been monitoring this site for months since I have a serious investment, with a large monthly check to write that includes the safety of my family and colleagues. While I do not believe alot of what I read on this site, it is one of the few ways to have a sense of what is going on.

 

[cgmason1]

If you are truly an owner then you must realize that the safety of your family and yourself is of the utmost importance.
To have the most qualified and safest pilots there are you must pay them the wage they deserve for the work they do--or they leave for greener pastures-even in the current state of the aviation industry there are many greener pastures still available and attainable.

All we are asking the company is to pay us like the professionals we are-that is if you want the best-same goes for all the other frax and their pilots.

I know all that was for not cause I too believe this was a bogus thread but what the heck-have a nice day.

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[x402]

Dear NJA owner,

It's hard to know where to start, but how do you feel about the fees already having been raised to cover the new contract the company is dragging out?
Maybe the Capt. had done five legs and hadn't eaten yet that day.
I doubt that any pilot working for us cares if you are late, if you are we just keep our flight managers aware and if it screws up the schedule they fix it, we just wait and take you where you are going, as safe as is humanly possible.

 

[Publishers]

Just what

Just what is this living wage that you think is fair to drive around a sophisticated jet today for a fractional, and, do not throw all that safety stuff for my family into the equation.

The last time I looked, the pilots and the aircraft arrive safely and the passengers usually do to. This is also not about some perceived wage or they will leave for the airlines. They will always do that as corporate flying will not pay what a unionized airline does. Those that like the fractional life and find the pay good enough for doing what they love will continue to do it.

All in all, the pay is reasonable, the equipment good, and it is not a bad life. If you don't think so, go do something else.

 

[cgmason1]

All you have to do is look at the NBAA National Pilot survey to see what pilots make flying LESS Hours in the SAME equipment(airplanes) that we fly.
Also until you work a day at my company, in my shoes, please don't let me tell me what a resonable wage is.
But I see from your profile/qualifications you do not fly for us.
If you are willing to sell out for a substandard wage for what you do thats your decision-I for one am not.

NJA Owner-if this is the level of experienced pilot you want flying you and your family at night in bad weather(or anytime)when important decisions really count-then I would agree-the level of compensation does not need to change.

As far as going to do something else-please see my previous mention about greener pastures still available and attainable even in todays industry. My post was in response to NJA Owners post and to explain that if you want the best you got to pay them at least close to what the National Average for their equipment is.

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[Timebuilder]

All in all, the pay is reasonable, the equipment good, and it is not a bad life. If you don't think so, go do something else.

I think that many are doing just that.

We used to have the option of pursuing a career at a major airline. For most of us, that dream is gone. Sure, many pilots don't think so. That's denial.

Just what is this living wage that you think is fair to drive around a sophisticated jet today for a fractional, and, do not throw all that safety stuff for my family into the equation.

Well, let's see.

Training and testing over several years to establish the basic qualifications, at great personal expense in many cases.

Additional work, often below the poverty line, to reach experience levels that make you employable.

Recurrent training to maintain familiarity and proficiency.

Employment based on medical standards not duplicated in any other industry, where they would be considered "discriminatory".

Employment based on adherance to accident driven regulations, which are often contradictory and inscrutable, and subject to the "interpretation" of a lawyer whose decisions are unchallengeable in an administrative court, and are not widely published and commonly available.

So, what IS a living wage for a pilot? I wasn't making it, I can tell you that. And yes, I am worth more than that. How do I know? Primarily, because I see other pilots who perform essentially THE SAME JOB being paid more. Even those in the same aircraft!

Every so often, guys like the Comair pilots, and now the Netjets pilots, will help to establish just what a living wage is in an industry that demands so much, and often gives so little in return.

While the market rules our future, we have a part to play. We ARE a part of that market.

 

[sky4]

Publishers

You are the type person that brings this industry down! I bet you would be the type to pay for training to get a job! In the Fractional Industry you would be the one that gets people killed! I worked a long and hard road to get the experience that I have and with three years in the fractional flying I have only had praise for any flight I have flown and that comes experience.

Fly Safe.....If you know how to!

 

[NJAowner]

Gunfyter has passed Microeconomics 101 -- Bravo.
The principal called the free market and covers not just pilots, but doctors, lawyers, bankers, fast food, planes and most other industries that operate without governmental protection and barriers to entry. Youhit the nail on the head when you said most pilots love to fly (and we are glad for that) and therefore will continue to do so even though market rates decrease.

Also, pilots, doctors, CEOs, baggage handlers, teachers ... show mean one profession or job where someone thinks they should not be entitled to more pay for what they do.

But remember one thing, unions do not exist for the benefit of the members. Most union officials are paid better than their members, drive nicer cars than their members, and are more interested in their power and positions than their members' interests. Plese note I said "most". I do not know your union or any national or local officials. Please keep in mind they they fight for themselves and like the volunteer fireman who starts a brush fire so he can be the first to put it out, beware when the winds kicks in and the fire rages out of control.

NJA (and the other frax) are service businesses. If you want changes, work through the owners who may express comments to Columbus and Woodbridge. You seem to be using the wrong battle plan. Remember, the owners send their $$$ to NJA, and the owners step on the planes. This is different than an owner of a business cutting benefits at a factory far away. This has a very significant and close affect on the owner himself. $$$ speaks. Not the union or the pilots, but work thorugh those who send $$$ to NJA.

 

[Timebuilder]

The principal called the free market and covers not just pilots, but doctors, lawyers, bankers, fast food, planes and most other industries that operate without governmental protection and barriers to entry.

I'm glad you agree with this principle. Since the pilots are a part of the free market, we will make our concerns a part of every contract that we can, according to what the market will bear.

I can't agree, however, that taking concerns of the pilots to the fractional owners would be effective as a method of advancing pay or benefits for the pilots. In fact, I'd say that unless an owner asked, discussing these matters with ANY passenger would be both unseemly and unprofessional. At my company, we never discussed anythng regarding pay or company policies unless directly asked.

No, the best way to advance our compensation is to adddress those who manage us and write our checks; the people who hire us to do the job. At a fractional, an owner may come or go on any given day. The same principle applies at charter companies such as where I worked.

We, the pilots, still have to get up at whatever time required, and do the job.

 

[NJAowner]

I did not mean to say give us the safety talk, offer a drink and then let's discuss your pay after take off. Go to the owners the same way that the company does -- well placed informative ads in the right publications, a web site (believe it or not there are lots of owners who want to know more about the Company). Make your position known. I bet you that 9 out of 10 owners have no idea what you make (probably think you make something a little less than a 747 pilot) and don't even know about the contract issue. I knew none of this before I started reading this site and I forgot how I stumbled upon it. How about an "owner info" section on the ejapilots.com site? Remember, NJA changed the water from a round bottle to a square one and has to get adapters for all of their planes because a few owners preferred Fiji to Evian (I won't complain until you change the brand of scotch!). Come to think of it, I prefer a different brand of playing cards.

 

[banned username 2]

Me thinks you guys are getting the wool pulled over your eyes...

I am going to put my boots on...

 

[Timebuilder]

Aw, I like a good hypothetical argument.

Besides, I needed a break from studying.

 

[trainerjet]

Ahh yes....

A thankful reminder of why I would never consider the fractional world.

And Publishers is just being his anti-pilot/pro-management (but he always defends this accusation as being "pro-business"...yeah, whatever ) self, and should simply be ignored. That's what most pilots that have been on this board any length of time have learned to do.

But remember one thing, unions do not exist for the benefit of the members. Most union officials are paid better than their members, drive nicer cars than their members, and are more interested in their power and positions than their members' interests. Plese note I said "most". I do not know your union or any national or local officials. Please keep in mind they they fight for themselves and like the volunteer fireman who starts a brush fire so he can be the first to put it out, beware when the winds kicks in and the fire rages out of control.


NJA (and the other frax) are service businesses. If you want changes, work through the owners...Remember, the owners send their $$$ to NJA, and the owners step on the planes...This has a very significant and close affect on the owner himself. $$$ speaks. Not the union or the pilots, but work thorugh those who send $$$ to NJA.

Holy *#%*!! Man, if that doesn't say it all. If after reading that, anyone has any reason at all to continue responding to this dipsh!t, then you deserve each other. Have fun out there.

Oh, and thanks again for the reminder of why I would clean the toilets at the Y before flying these out of touch, clueless "owners" anywhere at all.

 

[trainerjet]

Me thinks you guys are getting the wool pulled over your eyes...

For the sake of fractional pilots everywhere, I certainly hope so. Maybe another "Mr. Concorde"?

Me thinks if no one responds, he slinks away.

 

[NJAowner]

Remove blinders & think outside the box

I am real - PM me if you need info.

I think that many of you are too tied up in this union/anti-union debate. Remove your blinders. The fact is NJA listens to its owners.

Do you believe that national politicians listen to their contiuents or their large contributors? If you some the former, take the wool off your eyes.

I try and suggest to think outside the box (I hate the cliche) and I get called a dipsh!t. Think about it. Do professional athletes make what they make because (1) they are intrinsically worth it, (2) the team owners are benevolent, (3) they have an effective union, or (4) fans are willing to pay higher prices (either in ticket prices or pay extra cable tv deals). As long as the fans will pay more, athletes make more. As long as frax owners are willing to pay more, pilots may make more. If you don't get the owners to pay more, you will never make more. Services businesses are consumer driven. You need to make the owners want to pay more, just like the fans pay more. (I would say exorbitant athlete salaries, but the athletes think they are worth it). Until the customer/fan $$ dries up, there is more $$ available for the teams and the players. Why are NFL and NBA franchises worth 50x what they were 2o years ago.

Think outside the box, and stop thinking solely in the union/non-union/company battle. Create the demand.

 

[Timebuilder]

Do professional athletes make what they make because...

Because there is a very small number of upper echelon athletes, and the owners compete for this limited resource. It isn't because fans have expressed any particular willingness to pay a certain amount for anything. Fans spend the most on the team that wins, and the team that wins has the top players, and the top players command the largest salaries, since they are a "scarce" or "limited resource".

If the fractional companies are willing to pay the top money for the best pilots, then the owners will gravitate to that fractional company that has the best pilots, the best service, and the best safety record. No owner is going to demand that his crew is paid more money, either through the use of a website or an ad in the WSJ.

The driving force for pilot pay comes from the pilot group, not from the consumer, who will always try to receive premium service for minimum cost. The fractional operator understands the quality of pilots needed for their operation, and the economies of hiring and paying for the appropriate level of skill that is required.

Owners know only what they are being asked to pay for, and if they think it is excessive or unwarranted they will take their business elsewhere. There will be no force brought to bear by owners because they think their pilots are underpaid.

I went to the NYU business school. Where did you get these quaint ideas?

 

[beytzim]

I'm pretty sure we're being had by some 'other' frax pilot who's losing HIS patience with OUR contract....

Regardless, there are a couple of holes in his theories.

1. Major airlines have thousands and thousands of resumes of pilots begging to work for them. With his previous logic of supply and demand, major airlines shouldn't pay their pilots a lot of money. After all, they can easily be replaced by 50,000 young and willing commuter pilots. But, WRONG, they still pay them 300k a year! Blows that theory out of the water! That example can be further proved by corporate GV operators that pay their pilots 200k/year....They ALSO have lots of guys begging to work for them!

2. You're wrong on saying that most owners want to know about our pay etc. BullSh*t. The owners want to get from A to B with the least amount of hassle - hence fractionals! The last thing they need in the back of their minds is worrying about if the pilot is happy with their pay. Further, with most of our owners being CEOs or managemant themselves(read: anti-union), they would certainly side with Santulli.

3. You state that you can pay the pilot as much as the owners are willing to pay. That may be true if there was a transparent pay system. But there isn't. Owners pay a managemant fee that is subdivided into dozens of subcategories. The pilots, and certainly the owners have no idea on how they are divided. Also, NJA's goal is to make a profit, not enrichen pilots. Sports teams lose money left and right - that's a poor example to follow.

Sorry, boss, you're gonna have to try better than that.

 

[Huck]

Most union officials are paid better than their members, drive nicer cars than their members, and are more interested in their power and positions than their members' interests.

Hate to interrupt here but just to clarify: I have been an ALPA member for 8 years (and my father was for 31 years). Believe it or not, 99% of union work is done by volunteers. They do not make more money, they just have less time with their kids.

This thread is a pretty good example of why I left corporate flying 10 years ago. Blows my mind that someone will pay 4 million for a state of the art jet, then demand the lowest bidders in the front seats. Too bad they don't do surgery at Walmart - think of the money you could save!