Overheard...

[gutshotdraw]

I'm sorry. Did somebody fart? Again?

 

[B19 Flyer]

I'm sorry. Did somebody fart? Again?

Yes. 1108 and all the dues paying suckers. :laugh:

 

[be99fr8dog]

B19 Flyer. You are a total tool.

 

[T-1GUY]

Darn, I stepped in something.. B19 must of been here...

I can still smell the stench...

 

[B19 Flyer]

Darn, I stepped in something.. B19 must of been here...

I can still smell the stench...

That's actually the sweet smell of an honest, non-union paycheck.

As a union member, you wouldn't be used to that smell. Paychecks issued to union members have that yucky, bitter contract taste to them. Makes the rest of us want to puke. uke:

 

[B19 Flyer]

Would you like some cheese with that whine?

B19 Flyer. You are a total tool.

Yes, and proud of the honesty I bring forth every day. I resemble that remark.



Look at all the turmoil that the NJA group and Flight Options has had to endure, and it's not over yet. Only the union fracs are whining. Would you like some cheese with that whine? :beer:

 

[brokeflyer]

avantair is next on the union list. time to get those boys a fair paycheck and fair working conditions. Managment there is just lining their pockets for doing completly nothing. the pilots are the ones doing all thoe work.

 

[dime line]

Yes, and proud of the honesty I bring forth every day. I resemble that remark.



Look at all the turmoil that the NJA group and Flight Options has had to endure, and it's not over yet. Only the union fracs are whining. Would you like some cheese with that whine? :beer:

Yes, cheese will go well with my whine? Can you help us buy some with that management paycheck (oh yea from that management contract you have)

 

[gunfyter]

19 will be on TV tomorrow night....

http://www.pbs.org/frontline/flyingcheap/

 

[jonjuan]

Of course the rest of us, besides gunfighter, will be watching this at the same time...

http://www.cnbc.com/id/34828878/

 

[gunfyter]

I have a trip from LGB to SFO ... so i won't be seeing either....

 

[fischman]

Yes, and proud of the honesty I bring forth every day. I resemble that remark.



Look at all the turmoil that the NJA group and Flight Options has had to endure, and it's not over yet. Only the union fracs are whining. Would you like some cheese with that whine? :beer:

Honesty??? BWAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell me again. What turmoil has the CBA caused NetJets? That's right. NONE. NetJets would have furloughed 495 without a CBA.

I'm waiting to learn more about your wide-body, non-union, international turboprop carrier. Tell us how AWESOME it is KB!!!

 

[B19 Flyer]

Honesty??? BWAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell me again. What turmoil has the CBA caused NetJets? That's right. NONE. NetJets would have furloughed 495 without a CBA.

I'm waiting to learn more about your wide-body, non-union, international turboprop carrier. Tell us how AWESOME it is KB!!!

NJ has the highest pilot per airplane ratio in the industry forced by the CBA. Those pilots would have never been laid off because they shouldn't have been hired in the first place had the contract not been so greedy.

All of the other pilots that had to make decisions on their careers prior to that when the golden parachutes were offered lived turmoil each and every day trying to make decisions on their future.

That industry leading contract has been nothing but turmoil for the bottom of the seniority list while the top of the list is protected, just like the union always does. Nothing but greed.

My carrier has not laid anybody off or forced pay cuts and it is awesome to not have to worry about a union screwing things up. The only unhappy people on this board are union members.

I predicted NJ turmoil with that "industry leading" contract, it began with the packages, continued with the layoffs and the contract will be next after one more round of layoffs. Mark my words, expensive "industry leading" contracts NEVER survive, market forces always brings them back to reality. The FLOPS T/A may indeed be the industry leading contract before it's all over, and if 1108 hadn't waited so long they would have gotten a whole lot more than they did. What a waste of time and money.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I have no contract Butthead.. (or is it Beavis?)

Yes, cheese will go well with my whine? Can you help us buy some with that management paycheck (oh yea from that management contract you have)

I noted that 1108 wasn't going to have a contract for the FLOPS pilots for at least three years, (nearly four years ago), and that pearl of wisdom still applies to me. Just like FLOPS, I have no contract Butthead.. (or is it Beavis?)

 

[wolfpackpilot]

I have a trip from LGB to SFO ...

That's pushing the range on a Falcon isn't it? You're going to have wet footprint on that one!

 

[doh]

NJ has the highest pilot per airplane ratio in the industry forced by the CBA. Those pilots would have never been laid off because they shouldn't have been hired in the first place had the contract not been so greedy.

All of the other pilots that had to make decisions on their careers prior to that when the golden parachutes were offered lived turmoil each and every day trying to make decisions on their future.

That industry leading contract has been nothing but turmoil for the bottom of the seniority list while the top of the list is protected, just like the union always does. Nothing but greed.

My carrier has not laid anybody off or forced pay cuts and it is awesome to not have to worry about a union screwing things up. The only unhappy people on this board are union members.

I predicted NJ turmoil with that "industry leading" contract, it began with the packages, continued with the layoffs and the contract will be next after one more round of layoffs. Mark my words, expensive "industry leading" contracts NEVER survive, market forces always brings them back to reality. The FLOPS T/A may indeed be the industry leading contract before it's all over, and if 1108 hadn't waited so long they would have gotten a whole lot more than they did. What a waste of time and money.

We don't have a union at Flex, yet we have the same percentage of pilots laid off. Let me quote the Clintons: "It's the economy, stupid!" Management will not always get the staffing right sans union, so your argument is flawed. It is a combonation of things. And let me say one more time, just in case there is a stupid individual here who still doesn't get it, Flops management is solely responsible for having a union on property. They could have been Flex, but they didn't respond.

 

[be99fr8dog]

I noted that 1108 wasn't going to have a contract for the FLOPS pilots for at least three years, (nearly four years ago), and that pearl of wisdom still applies to me. Just like FLOPS, I have no contract Butthead.. (or is it Beavis?)

Hey B19 why don't you let your identity be known, because when I meet you I want to kick your ass. you are a real dip sh*t. Pull your head out of your anus. You know what you are? You are a single use, disposable, feminine hygiene product. Even your Mom knows you are a dip sh*t.

 

[CRJFlyer]

B19 is ******************************...But I do agree there will be one more round of layoffs (or atleast threat of layoffs).

Apparently mgmnt has changed their tune a bit and is still telling recurrents that they have to wait until March/April to re-evaluate staffing. AND they could have cut another 800 jobs without too much impact on operations. BUT didn't want to because they would have to call back too soon once things picked up....How soon will it be before some of the junior captains start getting worried about layoffs? Once layoffs start threatening the captain ranks all bets are off as to what will happen. Guaranteed!! IMO

If I wasn't furloughed I'd be willing to put money down as to the intent of these "re-evaluations"...Same mgmnt playbook, different company. Aviation managers will either threaten us with jobs, or in the case of SJS, will dangle an E-170 or promise of upgrades to a regional pilot group.
I've said before on NJASAP.. They're(mgmnt) is going to try to get into the contract. Guaranteed, DS came here, saw our pay vs. other fractionals, and thought.."WTF, our guys make way more than the others!!" He's not an aviation guy, all he see's is dollars and cents.

Hopefully I'm proven wrong, and hopefully everyone still left will see this. Our group is fairly strong, but when faced with a furlough, or downgrade, all bets are off.

 

[brokeflyer]

NJ has the highest pilot per airplane ratio in the industry forced by the CBA. Those pilots would have never been laid off because they shouldn't have been hired in the first place had the contract not been so greedy.

All of the other pilots that had to make decisions on their careers prior to that when the golden parachutes were offered lived turmoil each and every day trying to make decisions on their future.

That industry leading contract has been nothing but turmoil for the bottom of the seniority list while the top of the list is protected, just like the union always does. Nothing but greed.

My carrier has not laid anybody off or forced pay cuts and it is awesome to not have to worry about a union screwing things up. The only unhappy people on this board are union members.

I predicted NJ turmoil with that "industry leading" contract, it began with the packages, continued with the layoffs and the contract will be next after one more round of layoffs. Mark my words, expensive "industry leading" contracts NEVER survive, market forces always brings them back to reality. The FLOPS T/A may indeed be the industry leading contract before it's all over, and if 1108 hadn't waited so long they would have gotten a whole lot more than they did. What a waste of time and money.

well, if you're managment, then go fix it. we cant do anything about the union that management allowed to be placed there.

only YOU can change it.

Pay your pilots a liveable wage and dont abuse them. Unions will then be obsolete.

Do your job.......manage.

We all know you hate unions, stop crying about it so much and deal with it. Quit crying about it and be a man. Fix it if you hate it so bad.

 

[glasspilot]

It's funny how relitive seniority affects your view on furloughs. I went throgh it at ACA / Indy.

Feeling toward furlough vs. Seniority:

Middle of road Captain (as high as I ever got)
Well, furlough sucks for those guys, but we'll get 'em back soon.

Junior Captain on reserve:
Well another round of furloughs, reserve sucks but at least I held on to the left seat.

Senior FO
Wow! I can hold any line I want! Pays not as bad as I thought with these cherry lines. Suks the guys I fly with are clueless to the plight of those below them.

Middle of road FO
Man! Why won't this company turn it around?!?

Now on reserve FO
Am I gonna get the axe?? This company ain't gonna make it! Start going to road show and give money to Kit.


The whole time I KNEW guys were losing their jobs but didn't really understand until it was me on the block. I just rationalized it with seniority and the hope that it would be a quick furlough.

Good luck all.

 

[AftCG182]

avantair is next on the union list. time to get those boys a fair paycheck and fair working conditions. Managment there is just lining their pockets for doing completly nothing. the pilots are the ones doing all thoe work.

I'd suggest minding my own business if I were you. Don't worry about us. We're walking a tight-rope right now, trying to balance between adding aircraft (and pretty soon adding crews), keeping Owners happy, and keeping everyone here happy while trying to grow the company. It's tough, and the last thing that we need is a union coming in and f-ing everything up.

The conspitacy theorist side of me thinks like that might be something you'd like, in order to reduce competion for your (former) company.

 

[jtf]

The required staffing ratios at NJA have NOTHING to do with why anyone was furloughed or why the ratios of pilots to airplanes were so high. Management didn't see the writing on the wall and kept hiring for their totally unplanned out expansion. The only plan was to expand as quickly as we could get airplanes. They kept hiring well after the amount of new customers had started to slow. It takes many moons to get pilots through all the training and online so they have to hire for planned growth well in advance and that is what they did, even when they should have hit the brakes. The min staffing levels are at about 5 per airplane and they haven't even furloughed down to that. I don't think there will be any more furloughs, but I wouldn't bet everything on that- I have an easily obtainable plan B if the economy takes another nose dive and round two comes about. As far as the union giving up parts of the contract, I am sure they would have us vote on changes and I know I would vote for my own furlough to save the contract so I'd have a worth while job to come back to. The amount of pay and benefits that the pilots cost compared to all the other costs of business is so small that if the business can't work with the current rates, it shouldn't stay in business. I'd honestly rather scuttle the place than let it become just another crappy job on the race to the bottom. 2005 showed that the 2000 or so guys and girls flying the line at the time were willing to pull the plug if they didn't get a descent contract and I'd hope they feel the same way now if the company comes demanding cuts.

 

[brokeflyer]

I'd suggest minding my own business if I were you. Don't worry about us. We're walking a tight-rope right now, trying to balance between adding aircraft (and pretty soon adding crews), keeping Owners happy, and keeping everyone here happy while trying to grow the company. It's tough, and the last thing that we need is a union coming in and f-ing everything up.

The conspitacy theorist side of me thinks like that might be something you'd like, in order to reduce competion for your (former) company.

calm down sunshine it was obviously a joke. Im retired and doing just fine minding my own business.

 

[General Lee]

calm down sunshine it was obviously a joke. Im retired and doing just fine minding my own business.

You are a bitter old man. Look at you. You should be on the golf course and forgetting about your airplane life, but you can't. You are like Patches O'Houlahan in the movie Dodge Ball.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[imacdog]

You are a bitter old man. Look at you. You should be on the golf course and forgetting about your airplane life, but you can't. You are like Patches O'Houlahan in the movie Dodge Ball.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Coming from a guy, posting in the Fractional forum, that doesn't fly for a fractional?

 

[General Lee]

Coming from a guy, posting in the Fractional forum, that doesn't fly for a fractional?

Oh, that's right, it is off limits...??? Brokeflyer continually states he is retired, and likes to slam people who are currently WORKING. He is the new Patches O'Houlahan.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[CRJFlyer]

Oh, that's right, it is off limits...??? Brokeflyer continually states he is retired, and likes to slam people who are currently WORKING. He is the new Patches O'Houlahan.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Coming from a guy that has more than 13000 posts..it would take 10 posts a day for nearly 4 years to get that many.

Your TT should read "alot of time spent in front of a computer jacking off to kiddie porn, and posting on FI.

 

[realityman]

Don't know why you folks keep bothering with B19. It's obvious he knows NOTHING about the actual situation at NJ's.

It was MANAGEMENT that hired well above the staffing levels required by the CBA. And now it is MANAGEMENT that must furlough the excess pilots that THEY hired. The union, in no way, asked or forced them to hire above the minimum staffing requirements.

But the reality is, our CBA-required staffing ratios are where we need to be to operate an efficient and successful fractional business. I've covered this before, but here it is one more time: let's say that NJ's has 400 aircraft. Well, we know that each plane requires 2 pilots to operate. Okay, so right away we need 800 pilots, yes? But NJ's is a 24/7 operation, meaning that while we don't fly as much at night as we do in the day, our planes still need to be available at all hours. It's the FAR's, not our CBA, that limits us to 14-hour duty day. Okay, so we don't need to have ALL the planes crewed for night ops, we still need SOME crewed. So we'll need more than the base 800 pilots. Let's say another 400. That brings our total up to 1200, right? But that assumes that all 1200 pilots are willing to work every day of the year. Ummm, I don't think that's gonna happen. Even the worst companies out there give their pilots some days off every month. So, we need more pilots. Oh yeah, are we going to provide any training for our pilots? Provide them with any vacation time at all? Can our pilots call in sick? If the answer is 'yes' to any of those questions (I'm thinking to all of the questions) then we're going to need even more pilots yet!
So it looks like making NJ's work, it really will require about 5 pilots per plane, minimum. My numbers may be off a little, but I'd bet my next year's salary that I'm very close. Our CBA-required staffing numbers aren't hurting the company. They basically just go along with what they'd need anyway. Same as our work restrictions (as outlined in the CBA) pretty much just mirror the FAR's. No major deviations there either.

As to what management will demand in our next contract negotiation, it seems B19 wants to be seen as some sort of amazing prognosticator of the future that we'll all be wowed by when his predictions come true.
Only problem is, he's prediciting things that we already KNOW wil happen! Management is going to demand concessions form us on our next round? Well, duh!! That's what management does!! Hello, McFly?! Even if the economy were to be absolutely booming, and NJ's were to be making money like they were printing it, management would still approach us for concessions in the next contract. That's what they are SUPPOSED to do! It's management's job to try to get us as cheaply as possible, whether the company is making money or not. They represent the company's interests. And just like clockwork, the union will ask for the exact opposite. That's what they are SUPPOSED to do! They represent the pilot's interests.

Has anyone EVER heard of a contract negotiation where management was all giving and no taking? I'd love to hear about it! B19 is stating the obvious, what we all KNOW will transpire, and trying to make it sound like a dire warning that this will happen simply because of the union and our CBA. Hogwash!! It would happen no matter what.

And as always, B19 keeps ignoring that even the non-union fractionals are in the same situation as NJ's. How is it that furloughs at NJ's are the union's fault, but it's just the economy at the other fracs? Who does he really blame at the other fracs? I notice he avoids talking about them, probably because if it isn't the economy, the only other place to place blame is with management, and that would run counter to the points he's trying to make.

Why waste your time with people who are just here to stir the pot? Put him on ignore like I did (or at least stop quoting him so his posts don't show up for all of us).