Outsourcing (True Story)

[pilotyip]

For me, middle class would refer to the median income so that would actually be about 31K a year.

You are probably looking at median household income or average income which would not be reflective of a middle class income.

What are you talking about. So you are saying that middle class is defined by a income of 31K, anyone making 31K or above is middle class? And people making regional F/O wages are the definition of middle class? And these people are disappearing as the middle class disappears? Now back to your earlier post that middle class is in danger. Why is it in danger? Because 31K jobs are disappearing? BTW Here in the Detroit area, the shopping malls are packed, looks like the middle class is doing fine here in the US.

 

[Lord Wakefield]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When was the last time you took that Toyota to the shop?

Do they even break?

[/FONT]Protectionism is a ridiculous strategy in a global market, quality and innovation is however the way forward

Everyone on Mt. Rushmore was a protectionist. Uncle Sam pursued that policy while John Bull babbled on about free trade. We eclipsed England and their cars became the subject of jokes long before ours did.

But outsourcing can be just a scare tactic, sometimes...
http://goo.gl/av9sx

 

[J.Otto]

While this is a perfect example of those great stories that show up in email chain letters with a message that the recipient is predisposed to absorb........

Does anyone have a source for this being an actual true story? Yeah, it's a great parable with some pertinent points, but I take exception to it being disseminated as something that actually happened.
The world we currently live in is saturated with misinformation, spin, half-truth, innuendo, logical fallacy, and outright lie. Pretending something is fact when it is not does a disservice to everyone involved. That's how we end up with a populace that holds Glenn Beck as an authority on science instead of actual scientists.

On the surface, it sounds like complete and utter bull$hit. I mean really. Read it again and tell me that it sounds like something that actually happened. A group of Mitsubishi (or whomever) workers and american workers took time off from producing cars to have a canoe race? Really? A canoe race.
You ever seen a NINE person CANOE? Think about it.

Would it be so hard to keep passing around information that we know is complete bull$hit, just because it happens to shore up whatever belief system we subscribe to? This 'ends justifies the means' approach to journalism and the truth ultimately hurts us all, regardless of what we believe. If you can't provide a reference to a legitimate source for the information that you are endorsing.....present it as your opinion, not as a fact. It's really not difficult to be honest and actually rely on truth to support your position.

We're all intelligent people here and we can do better.

Ahhh... of course the canoe story is not true.

The OUTSOURCING part is. Hence the parentheses after the word outsourcing. Get it? Did you think the canoe race actually took place. It didnt! Its what you call a parable.

Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages. TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results: TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses. Ford folks are still scratching their heads, and collecting bonuses. IF THIS WEREN'T SO TRUE IT MIGHT BE FUNNY

 

[brokeflyer]

read the first post.....all those criminals steering the boat.

thats the problem. ceo's make an average of 475 TIMES more than the average worker. In japan the ceo makes about 28 TIMES as much.

corporate greed is going to kill this country, not unions.

Why does a ceo take 155 million a year and his company is posting losses?

 

[flyboyike]

the profits go back to Japan, Korea, & Germany, not here

Not necessarily. Often the profits end up at places like Citibank, JP Morgan, Bank of America etc in order to escape excessive taxation back home.

 

[J.Otto]

read the first post.....all those criminals steering the boat.

thats the problem. ceo's make an average of 475 TIMES more than the average worker. In japan the ceo makes about 28 TIMES as much.

corporate greed is going to kill this country, not unions.

Why does a ceo take 155 million a year and his company is posting losses?

In Japan, the CEOs make maybe 1-2 Million whereas in the US there are many tiered executives making 10-20 Million a year..plus bonuses and benefit packages when they split.. its disgraceful.

 

[J.Otto]

Not necessarily. Often the profits end up at places like Citibank, JP Morgan, Bank of America etc in order to escape excessive taxation back home.

Theres notbing virtuous about these investment banks making money... they're the reason our economy is the way it is now. Dont think they share the wealth with us.

 

[cynic]

What are you talking about. So you are saying that middle class is defined by a income of 31K, anyone making 31K or above is middle class? And people making regional F/O wages are the definition of middle class?

Yes. I define middle class as at or around the median income which is 31K a year. You could come up with some other definition.

You can look here as well - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States 75% of the population makes less than 50K a year.

And these people are disappearing as the middle class disappears?

The median wage, or the middle class wage (I consider that to be the same thing) is falling. That is what I mean by disappear. Perhaps disappear is misleading. If you want to be precise you could say the median wage in the United states adjusted for cost of living or inflation is falling.

Now back to your earlier post that middle class is in danger. Why is it in danger? Because 31K jobs are disappearing?

I'll just stop using the word middle class. It's imprecise and it upsets you. Let's say, for people making close to the median wage in the United States, their income is falling. They have less discretionary income.

You explain that kids today have more crap. I'd explain that the costs of some goods (electronics and clothes for example) have indeed fallen - good. But other costs (healthcare and education for example) are rising sharply and overall, while people can buy more 'crap' because 'crap' is cheaper they have less and less income and over time this is a problem.

You are kind of a dip3h1t so I expect at this point I've lost you and you'll respond with something about your small house growing up and you won't bother to ACTUALLY read anything on median person income and cost of living.

I say this because we've already had this conversation many times.

 

[J.Otto]

$31K doesnt buy you much and certainly not a middle class lifestyle. Id have to say 6 figures+ in a modest area might.

 

[cynic]

$31K doesnt buy you much and certainly not a middle class lifestyle. Id have to say 6 figures+ in a modest area might.

And that is why I passed on the job with COEX and work for a University.

I do get to do contract flying which is nice. But ugh... making 22K a year and then MAYBE just MAYBE if the airline I pick doesn't go under and I got hired at the right time, then maybe 10 years later I'm making the salary I STARTED at as a programmer for the University. Sheez.....

 

[airplane wizard]

The farther you have your head up your a@@, the bigger your bonus is. That is why all the idiots are in management, they would never last if they had to do the actual work that made the company run.

 

[AC560]

The median wage, or the middle class wage (I consider that to be the same thing) is falling.

As I highlighted in the third paragraph of my first post What globalization has done is increased everyone's standard of living. A family making $85K a year is arguably living better and longer than a millionaire did 100yrs ago.

The amount of money you make is not relevant, it is what you can do with it that matters. Flying to Europe or even flying coast to coast; owning 2+ cars; living in 4 bedroom houses; having 6 TV's and 300 channels with nothing on; etc. these are all things not even imaginable 40yrs ago for the middle class.

Today it is and that is what is great about being in America today.

That is why all the idiots are in management, they would never last if they had to do the actual work that made the company run.

Management is always hiring go show them what you can do.

 

[pilotyip]

You are kind of a dip3h1t so I expect at this point I've lost you and you'll

Ah! right on cue, so FI, name calling

 

[cynic]

As I highlighted in the third paragraph of my first post What globalization has done is increased everyone's standard of living. A family making $85K a year is arguably living better and longer than a millionaire did 100yrs ago.

But that is not necessarily BECUASE of globalization and in fact without globalization we might be even better off. I'm not saying you are wrong; I'm saying we don't really know that.

The short term effects of globalization included cheaper goods. The long term effects may be a lower standard of living in US; but we don't know that for sure either.

I have slowly come to the conclusion globalization is a net loss for most people in the US. I could be wrong.

I surely hope life continues to improve for people over time as it has over the last 100 years. I for one am not satisfied with my life being better than it would have been 100 years ago. I'd like to see the median wage in our country continue to go up and the standard of living continue to go up as well. It seems others may not agree with that.

 

[pilotyip]

I surely hope life continues to improve for people over time as it has over the last 100 years. I for one am not satisfied with my life being better than it would have been 100 years ago. I'd like to see the median wage in our country continue to go up and the standard of living continue to go up as well. It seems others may not agree with that.

Do you have a proposed solution to isolate us from the world? England attempted this following WWII. The result was a lower standard of living for everyone. repeat of an old post from guy who knows England

From conpilot

Anyway, yes I lived in England from 1956 until 1962. One way I can tell you just how the Labour Party was running England into the ground, was that World War Two rationing was still in effect. That's right, all rationing in England finally ended in July, 1958. The rationing of food had ended in 1954, however, coal which 90% of homes in the UK were heated by, was still rationed until 1958.

The primary reasons for this was the price controls and production limits put into place by the Labour Government. Due to the artificial price controls, wages were held low due to those price controls. Because of this England could not compete in the open market competing against more open free world markets. Because of union protectionism by the Labor Party coal prices were, by law, kept at unrealistic high levels, much higher than the prices in Europe.

Prior to and during World War Two English steel was one of England's most sought after exports. After the war due to the artificial high price of English coal the British Steel Industry could no longer compete on the open market. To make up for the lack of profit due to declining export of steel, the Labour Party forced all of the English Industries to only use English coal, coal imports from Europe were banned.

Thus the once mighty steel industry of the UK was doomed and the trickle down effect started the destruction of the UK auto industry, aircraft industry and the once mighty maritime industry. In a futile attempt to offset this trend, the Labour Party raised taxes on everything to subsidize the industries, to keep the Labour unions happy.

Make no mistake about this, really until Thatcher and the Tory Party took power, the labor unions controlled Great Britain through the Labour Party. The Labour Party was a combination of socialists and union leaders. As long as the Labour Party gave what the union leaders wanted, the rank and file union members voted straight Labour.