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Like I mentioned before, I don't expect you to understand.

I was not referring to your post at all. I see people have problems reading what other people qoute.

Also if you work for Flex that is not 91, maybe 91k. I am talking about a true part 91 operator. You know the big companies that treat their pilots like humans and not slaves. Any of us in the fractional industry are just mere slaves at the beck and call of some 20 year old scheduler that just moved up from the drive thru window at McDonald's.

The fractionals will never compare to a real 91 operator. Not even come close.
 
I was not referring to your post at all. I see people have problems reading what other people qoute.

Also if you work for Flex that is not 91, maybe 91k. I am talking about a true part 91 operator. You know the big companies that treat their pilots like humans and not slaves. Any of us in the fractional industry are just mere slaves at the beck and call of some 20 year old scheduler that just moved up from the drive thru window at McDonald's.

The fractionals will never compare to a real 91 operator. Not even come close.

Actually I don't work for Flex yet. i start 4/26. I work for a 91 right now.
 
Actually I don't work for Flex yet. i start 4/26. I work for a 91 right now.

Wow the guy has never been in a union but has no problem making coments pretending he knows something about them.

Interesting.
 
Well, I live in Charlotte right now, but we are moving to DFW to be closer to my side of the family. Flex was the job that I came up with. A buddy of mine works there and has been very happy. I went and spent the day with one of the ACP's out there and was extreamly impressed. They seemed to really try and make it a family type atmisphere. At least as much as you can with that many pilots. And my buddy said they really do try and do that. He even gave me some examples of a lot of little things. Things that they would have to stop doing if they were under a union contract. And that the ACP was not just blowing smoke up my rear or putting on a show. I figured it would be different and good experience.
 
Wow the guy has never been in a union but has no problem making coments pretending he knows something about them.

Interesting.
You don't have to be in a union to know about the union. I know enough information from all my flying buddies who are in unions. Trust me, I get an ear full from them.
 
Wow the guy has never been in a union but has no problem making coments pretending he knows something about them.

Interesting.


Relax! He'll be okay. Flex is a GOOD company that CARES about him and his family. :nuts:
 
You don't have to be in a union to know about the union. I know enough information from all my flying buddies who are in unions. Trust me, I get an ear full from them.


Ok. Let's define the difference here. I've been in "The Union" before at other carriers. This is the first job that I've had where I felt like I was actually an intergral part of The Union.

It's Atmosphere too.
 
Relax! He'll be okay. Flex is a GOOD company that CARES about him and his family. :nuts:


Oh dagnabit. I fell out of my chair. Diddlydarn you Fisch!!:cool:

When I interviewed at FLEX in 2002 with the CP on the Challenger he actually helped me in my decision to come to NJA. BIG TIME.
 
Relax! He'll be okay. Flex is a GOOD company that CARES about him and his family. :nuts:

Just remember that everybody defines QOL differently.

Also know that the things that I discussed above that Flex has (more of a family enviroment, treated like an individual and not being treated like a number) is something that unions can't negotiate into a contract. You will always be treated like a number and everything you get will always have to be negotiated.
 
Attitudes like that are the reason USair pilots are making $40,000. You've lost your entertainment value for me. Time to watch Lord of the Rings. Good luck. You're going to need it.


And anytime you want to compare W2's to someone who works for a union company just let us know. Then you can tell us how great a non union company is. Baaaaaahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaa.

I could have sworn USAir was unionized....:rolleyes:
 
Also know that the things that I discussed above that Flex has (more of a family enviroment, treated like an individual and not being treated like a number) is something that unions can't negotiate into a contract. You will always be treated like a number and everything you get will always have to be negotiated.

I wish i had the rose colored glasses outlook that you have. In reality though what you're about to find out that whenever you get to a larger flight department over 100 or 200 people you become a number no matter what. You think the CP has time for you to call up and chat? You think they change the payscale for you directly but not for the other pilots? No it doesn't happen that way. The company can givith and taketh away all at their whim. No matter what you say about it.

Sure right now in your small flight dept you can raise issues and problems to the CP. He'll listen. Heck you guys might actually go out for beers. Judging from your profile though you've never worked in a place with more that 20 pilots. You're in for an interesting experience.

Good luck. Sorry to hear NJ turned you down.
 
I wish i had the rose colored glasses outlook that you have. In reality though what you're about to find out that whenever you get to a larger flight department over 100 or 200 people you become a number no matter what. You think the CP has time for you to call up and chat? You think they change the payscale for you directly but not for the other pilots? No it doesn't happen that way. The company can givith and taketh away all at their whim. No matter what you say about it.

Sure right now in your small flight dept you can raise issues and problems to the CP. He'll listen. Heck you guys might actually go out for beers. Judging from your profile though you've never worked in a place with more that 20 pilots. You're in for an interesting experience.

Good luck. Sorry to hear NJ turned you down.

This may come as a big shock to you, but there are people out there that have no desire to work at NJ. I never applied there. As I mentioned before, I will not work at a unionized company.
 
This may come as a big shock to you, but there are people out there that have no desire to work at NJ. I never applied there. As I mentioned before, I will not work at a unionized company.


See you in a year at NetJets. After you get pissed enough at flex, you'll understand. (Your union brothers will welcome you, and educate you as to the realities of life (and quality of life) my young padawan).
 
I could have sworn USAir was unionized....:rolleyes:


No kidding huh? Flylow might have more experience with USAir. Care to shed some light?
 
This may come as a big shock to you, but there are people out there that have no desire to work at NJ. I never applied there. As I mentioned before, I will not work at a unionized company.

That's a fairly narrow career path you've set out for yourself. You may not want to work at NJA but when the majors call you'll just say NO.
Wow, never say never is good advise.
 
As I mentioned before, I will not work at a unionized company.

So if Flex votes for union representation at some point in the future, will you quit immediately after the vote count is announced?
 
Googester

Go to www.ibt1108.org


scroll down. 3rd hyperlink to the right...

Looks like it says "Flexjets Pilots" to me... That can't be right. :confused: The pilots are happy at Flex. It is a good company with good managers that CARE about the pilots. They don't need a union. I wonder why that is there?

I guess you better start working on the app for Citation Shares. Sorry to burst your bubble.
 
I could have sworn USAir was unionized....:rolleyes:

US Airways pilots now fly for Big Mesa. AAA has made their bed by living the ALPA mantra; eat the young and protect the top 10% at any costs. And then the bottom fell out. Mismanagement over the years from Butch Scholfield, Colodny, Wolf "Can't shrink into profitability" followed by furloughs, etc. so on and so forth did not lend itself to helping aleviate the situation over there either. That carrier went from an airline that had no regional jets with some of the best SCOPE language in the biz to, well, Big Mesa led by Daiquiri Doug Parker. The ALPA creedo under the Woerthless era? BOHICA. Bend Over Cause Here It Comes Again. You'd know about bending over Family Guy. In summary. Horrid management for decades coupled with greedy Union leadership led to the current situation for the guys at AAA. Any questions?

Many of is here at NJA now needed to live through examples of how NOT to act like as a Union to really appreciate how TO do it RIGHT as a Union.

When many of us hired on here at NJA, I must say that we were NOT doing it right here either.

I can't say that now.
 
Last edited:
Airlines in bankruptcy land
Carriers use protection to cut costs; execs laugh all the way to the
bank

OPINION
By Charles Leocha
Travel columnist

Updated: 12:16 p.m. CT March 30, 2007

Charles Leocha
Travel columnist

When did bankruptcy become a deliberate management strategy for the
airline industry? Somehow it has become the ultimate hammer with
which to pound out excess costs and then reward executives in charge
of the bloodletting for their "effectiveness."

Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines are the two largest airlines
still in bankruptcy. But United Airlines, Continental Airlines,
America West, US Airways, ATA Airlines, Braniff International,
Eastern Airlines, TWA, Hawaiian Airlines and Aloha Airlines have all
reorganized under bankruptcy protection at one time or another, and
some of these carriers are still operating.

Bankruptcy courts have just about rolled over and played dead for
airline management. I can't remember the last time I heard pilots,
flight attendants or other union members had been favored in any
court decision that involved a confrontation with management.

Consider the damage. Stockholders have been wiped out. Pensions have
been abandoned by the bankrupt companies. Flight attendants have seen
their work rules changed dramatically. Pilots are being squeezed for
more and more flight time. Aircraft orders have been canceled.
Contracts with suppliers have been torn up. Terminal leases with
airports remain unpaid.

The only parties in the current spate of airline bankruptcies that
seem to be flourishing are the airline executives, the lawyers and a
handful of bankruptcy financing firms. This greedy triad has been
working the bankruptcy system to line their pockets - and to hell
with the rest of the players.

According to SEC filings in February and March last year, Glenn
Tilton, the current CEO of United, was awarded more than $20 million
by the airline's board of directors; by some estimates, he is now one
of the largest shareholders in the company that he shepherded into
bankruptcy. According to UnionVoice.org, his handpicked legal firm,
Kirkland & Ellis, has charged more than $50 million, and one attorney
has pocketed almost $2 million in fees for a recent year.

USA Today reported only this week that SEC filings showed United's
top five executives received $25.7 million in the form of cash, stock
or exercisable options. Of that, CEO Glenn Tilton received $9.3
million, the filing said.

CNNMoney.com reported as far back as 2003 that former CEOs have
reaped stunning salaries and even more astonishing pension deals. The
former CEO of Delta worked for the company less than six years and
walked away with a pension promising a million dollars a year. Unlike
the pensions of the airline rank and file, his retirement is
protected and guaranteed by a special executive trust fund.

Similarly, though its former CEO Donald Carty was forced to retire
when the size of his pension became public, other executives at
American Airlines still enjoy the protection of a special trust fund
guaranteeing their pensions. The pilots and flight attendants, on the
other hand, may see their hard-earned pensions slashed and eventually
sent over to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation. They get no
guarantees.

The American Airlines pilots are incensed at the phenomenal increase
in pay that their airline's top executives have seen. According to
Airline Pilots Association figures, the five top executives at
American stand to receive $26,498,899 this year, up from the
$3,777,325 they received in 2002. During the same period, the pilots
pay actually decreased 4 percent -- even though they now spend 26
percent more time in the air.

According to Arianna Huffington, quoted in WorkingForChange.com, the
former CEO and the former CFO of US Airways, who together piloted
that airline into debtor's land, reportedly each walked away with $35
million in salary, bonuses and stock options in 1998. They then
feathered their retirement nest by receiving administrative credit
for more than 20 years that they weren't actually on the job. The
CEO, Stephen Wolf, left the company with a $15 million pension cash-
out just six months before US Airways declared bankruptcy.
Even recent announcements by Delta Air Lines that its workers will
share in the airline's profits once it emerges from bankruptcy are
suspect, as the plans continue to treat executives as royalty.
According to reports in the Atlanta Business Chronicle, Delta's
39,000 non-contract employees will share an estimated $480 million in
stock and cash payments (or about $12,300 each) while 1,200
executives will share a jackpot of restricted stock, stock options
and performance shares estimated at about $240 million (or about
$200,000 each). My arithmetic calculates that the executives are
receiving 16 times the share of the non-contract employees.

What happens to you when you don't pay your bills? Do you get a bonus
or a lush retirement package? Of course not. And yet there seems to
be no stigma attached to airline bankruptcy. In fact, the airlines
are still being treated as highly respected corporations in the
business community. They are allowed to compete and bid for new
routes and they are allowed to restructure their fleets with
multibillion-dollar purchases. It is business as usual - unless one
of the bankrupt airlines is your employer or owes you money.

Theoretically, the bankruptcy courts approve major management
decisions but, in fact, no bankruptcy court judge seems comfortable
overriding airline management - even when unions fight the executives
aggressively in court. The legal system seemingly follows a principle
that the good of the corporation and its executives trumps the good
of the employees, stockholders and creditors.
The inconvenient truth is that bankruptcy has become part of the
management process in our country. In the airline industry,
bankruptcy is the norm rather than the exception. It is used not to
cull the weak and mismanaged airlines but to provide a shelter from
which to pursue advantage.

Northwest Airlines is a case in point. It landed in bankruptcy court
with more than a billion dollars in the bank. Management even
claimed, as it declared Chapter 11, that it didn't need the
protection of the bankruptcy court to keep operating. It was a bold
and shameless maneuver to use the bankruptcy courts to batter its
unions, avoid paying its bills and renege on its contracts.

For years the airlines were a regulated industry whose salaries,
benefits, pensions and profits (and sky-high airfares) were protected
by a cozy relationship with the government. Though the industry has
been deregulated for more than a decade, legacy airline executives
have found a new way to suckle at the teat of the government - this
time through the bankruptcy courts.

When a system allows continued mismanagement and provides no apparent
consequences for the failing executives, it puts the burden of pain
on creditors, stockholders and employees who have done nothing wrong.
And while bankruptcy actions have not much affected airline
schedules, ticket prices and frequent-flier programs, the public is
certainly paying for these bankrupt airlines' mistakes. Taxpayers are
footing more and more of the unpaid airline bills (money for the
Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation and for airport bonds both come
from taxpayers) and court costs and higher prices are all passed
along to consumers when the airlines don't pay their bills.

Our seemingly endless bankruptcy process is no longer serving the
public good. In this upside-down, Alice-in-Wonderland world of
bankruptcy relief, the ones wearing the smug, Cheshire-cat smiles are
the airline executives who created the problem in the first place,
along with their bankers and lawyers.

Go figure.
 
This may come as a big shock to you, but there are people out there that have no desire to work at NJ. I never applied there. As I mentioned before, I will not work at a unionized company.

Take it from a grandson of one of the biggest union busters out there. Aviation needs unions and pilots and nj pilots need 1108. Just the way it is.
 
How in the world did a thread about Netjets plopping a jet into the mud turn into a union vs non-union pissing contest???
 
How in the world did a thread about Netjets plopping a jet into the mud turn into a union vs non-union pissing contest???


Because one of the posters has a union hating signature. Someone got their panties in a bunch because of it.

They seem to forget we live in a democratic country and people can think, say or believe what they want.

Again I am pro-union but I believe in freedom of speech, thinking and belief. Unlike others that have over 25,000 hours. That must mean he is the almighty aviation king. Oh yeah he has a Masters too.
 
Let me throw this out there. When the Teamsters endorse the Democratic runner for 2008, and you know they will. Are all of you guys going to vote that way because it was endorsed by our union? I for one will never vote for a Democrat, for that matter I will never vote for anyone that I do not believe in just because my union endorses them. We all know that the union will endorse the Democrat.
 
Let me throw this out there. When the Teamsters endorse the Democratic runner for 2008, and you know they will. Are all of you guys going to vote that way because it was endorsed by our union? I for one will never vote for a Democrat, for that matter I will never vote for anyone that I do not believe in just because my union endorses them. We all know that the union will endorse the Democrat.


I would personally vote my feelings. However, and I don't mean this as an attack, anybody who votes Republican and is pro-union is a contradiction. You can guess how I feel about the Republican party from my signature.;)
 
Go to www.ibt1108.org


scroll down. 3rd hyperlink to the right...

Looks like it says "Flexjets Pilots" to me... That can't be right. :confused: The pilots are happy at Flex. It is a good company with good managers that CARE about the pilots. They don't need a union. I wonder why that is there?

I guess you better start working on the app for Citation Shares. Sorry to burst your bubble.

All that proves is that you can't please everybody. But a mojority of Flex pilots are happy otherwise I believe they would be unionized......right?

And from what I hear form Flex pilots, they don't even come close to having enough votes to make it happen.
 
Just wait. He will see "the light" after his IOE. Once he get around "real line pilots."

After he get's his hat handed to him a couple of times, and he has to do the carpet dance, he will either: a) get out of flying or b) go back to a 91 only job, where their is peace and harmony forever and ever. Cumby I my lord...

Remember the ABC's of a business. Airplanes, Boats, and Condo's. When business is good they obtain these things, when business is bad they get rid of these things. Now that we have the "condo jets" and with teh airlines the way they are and lets not forget TSA, they will be happy to come to the "Condo community" and you will be left sitting in the ramp sucking your thumb wondering what just happened...
 
From what you hear, from what friends told you, from where you've read it in books.

Its all the same. No real first hand experience just a bunch examples from what friends said.
 

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