Dude,
You have to work up to Ass Monkey, I'm fearful of what Sec 6 will bring if this is the starting point.
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
Ouch!
- Thread starter Lone Star
- Start date
- Watchers 22
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
Dude,
You have to work up to Ass Monkey, I'm fearful of what Sec 6 will bring if this is the starting point.
Cargoav8or
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2006
- Posts
- 148
Airlines in bankruptcy land
Carriers use protection to cut costs; execs laugh all the way to the
bank
OPINION
By Charles Leocha
Travel columnist
Updated: 12:16 p.m. CT March 30, 2007
Charles Leocha
Travel columnist
When did bankruptcy become a deliberate management strategy for the
airline industry? Somehow it has become the ultimate hammer with
which to pound out excess costs and then reward executives in charge
of the bloodletting for their "effectiveness."
Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines are the two largest airlines
still in bankruptcy. But United Airlines, Continental Airlines,
America West, US Airways, ATA Airlines, Braniff International,
Eastern Airlines, TWA, Hawaiian Airlines and Aloha Airlines have all
reorganized under bankruptcy protection at one time or another, and
some of these carriers are still operating.
Bankruptcy courts have just about rolled over and played dead for
airline management. I can't remember the last time I heard pilots,
flight attendants or other union members had been favored in any
court decision that involved a confrontation with management.
Consider the damage. Stockholders have been wiped out. Pensions have
been abandoned by the bankrupt companies. Flight attendants have seen
their work rules changed dramatically. Pilots are being squeezed for
more and more flight time. Aircraft orders have been canceled.
Contracts with suppliers have been torn up. Terminal leases with
airports remain unpaid.
The only parties in the current spate of airline bankruptcies that
seem to be flourishing are the airline executives, the lawyers and a
handful of bankruptcy financing firms. This greedy triad has been
working the bankruptcy system to line their pockets - and to hell
with the rest of the players.
According to SEC filings in February and March last year, Glenn
Tilton, the current CEO of United, was awarded more than $20 million
by the airline's board of directors; by some estimates, he is now one
of the largest shareholders in the company that he shepherded into
bankruptcy. According to UnionVoice.org, his handpicked legal firm,
Kirkland & Ellis, has charged more than $50 million, and one attorney
has pocketed almost $2 million in fees for a recent year.
USA Today reported only this week that SEC filings showed United's
top five executives received $25.7 million in the form of cash, stock
or exercisable options. Of that, CEO Glenn Tilton received $9.3
million, the filing said.
CNNMoney.com reported as far back as 2003 that former CEOs have
reaped stunning salaries and even more astonishing pension deals. The
former CEO of Delta worked for the company less than six years and
walked away with a pension promising a million dollars a year. Unlike
the pensions of the airline rank and file, his retirement is
protected and guaranteed by a special executive trust fund.
Similarly, though its former CEO Donald Carty was forced to retire
when the size of his pension became public, other executives at
American Airlines still enjoy the protection of a special trust fund
guaranteeing their pensions. The pilots and flight attendants, on the
other hand, may see their hard-earned pensions slashed and eventually
sent over to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation. They get no
guarantees.
The American Airlines pilots are incensed at the phenomenal increase
in pay that their airline's top executives have seen. According to
Airline Pilots Association figures, the five top executives at
American stand to receive $26,498,899 this year, up from the
$3,777,325 they received in 2002. During the same period, the pilots
pay actually decreased 4 percent -- even though they now spend 26
percent more time in the air.
According to Arianna Huffington, quoted in WorkingForChange.com, the
former CEO and the former CFO of US Airways, who together piloted
that airline into debtor's land, reportedly each walked away with $35
million in salary, bonuses and stock options in 1998. They then
feathered their retirement nest by receiving administrative credit
for more than 20 years that they weren't actually on the job. The
CEO, Stephen Wolf, left the company with a $15 million pension cash-
out just six months before US Airways declared bankruptcy.
Even recent announcements by Delta Air Lines that its workers will
share in the airline's profits once it emerges from bankruptcy are
suspect, as the plans continue to treat executives as royalty.
According to reports in the Atlanta Business Chronicle, Delta's
39,000 non-contract employees will share an estimated $480 million in
stock and cash payments (or about $12,300 each) while 1,200
executives will share a jackpot of restricted stock, stock options
and performance shares estimated at about $240 million (or about
$200,000 each). My arithmetic calculates that the executives are
receiving 16 times the share of the non-contract employees.
What happens to you when you don't pay your bills? Do you get a bonus
or a lush retirement package? Of course not. And yet there seems to
be no stigma attached to airline bankruptcy. In fact, the airlines
are still being treated as highly respected corporations in the
business community. They are allowed to compete and bid for new
routes and they are allowed to restructure their fleets with
multibillion-dollar purchases. It is business as usual - unless one
of the bankrupt airlines is your employer or owes you money.
Theoretically, the bankruptcy courts approve major management
decisions but, in fact, no bankruptcy court judge seems comfortable
overriding airline management - even when unions fight the executives
aggressively in court. The legal system seemingly follows a principle
that the good of the corporation and its executives trumps the good
of the employees, stockholders and creditors.
The inconvenient truth is that bankruptcy has become part of the
management process in our country. In the airline industry,
bankruptcy is the norm rather than the exception. It is used not to
cull the weak and mismanaged airlines but to provide a shelter from
which to pursue advantage.
Northwest Airlines is a case in point. It landed in bankruptcy court
with more than a billion dollars in the bank. Management even
claimed, as it declared Chapter 11, that it didn't need the
protection of the bankruptcy court to keep operating. It was a bold
and shameless maneuver to use the bankruptcy courts to batter its
unions, avoid paying its bills and renege on its contracts.
For years the airlines were a regulated industry whose salaries,
benefits, pensions and profits (and sky-high airfares) were protected
by a cozy relationship with the government. Though the industry has
been deregulated for more than a decade, legacy airline executives
have found a new way to suckle at the teat of the government - this
time through the bankruptcy courts.
When a system allows continued mismanagement and provides no apparent
consequences for the failing executives, it puts the burden of pain
on creditors, stockholders and employees who have done nothing wrong.
And while bankruptcy actions have not much affected airline
schedules, ticket prices and frequent-flier programs, the public is
certainly paying for these bankrupt airlines' mistakes. Taxpayers are
footing more and more of the unpaid airline bills (money for the
Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation and for airport bonds both come
from taxpayers) and court costs and higher prices are all passed
along to consumers when the airlines don't pay their bills.
Our seemingly endless bankruptcy process is no longer serving the
public good. In this upside-down, Alice-in-Wonderland world of
bankruptcy relief, the ones wearing the smug, Cheshire-cat smiles are
the airline executives who created the problem in the first place,
along with their bankers and lawyers.
Go figure.
Carriers use protection to cut costs; execs laugh all the way to the
bank
OPINION
By Charles Leocha
Travel columnist
Updated: 12:16 p.m. CT March 30, 2007
Charles Leocha
Travel columnist
When did bankruptcy become a deliberate management strategy for the
airline industry? Somehow it has become the ultimate hammer with
which to pound out excess costs and then reward executives in charge
of the bloodletting for their "effectiveness."
Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines are the two largest airlines
still in bankruptcy. But United Airlines, Continental Airlines,
America West, US Airways, ATA Airlines, Braniff International,
Eastern Airlines, TWA, Hawaiian Airlines and Aloha Airlines have all
reorganized under bankruptcy protection at one time or another, and
some of these carriers are still operating.
Bankruptcy courts have just about rolled over and played dead for
airline management. I can't remember the last time I heard pilots,
flight attendants or other union members had been favored in any
court decision that involved a confrontation with management.
Consider the damage. Stockholders have been wiped out. Pensions have
been abandoned by the bankrupt companies. Flight attendants have seen
their work rules changed dramatically. Pilots are being squeezed for
more and more flight time. Aircraft orders have been canceled.
Contracts with suppliers have been torn up. Terminal leases with
airports remain unpaid.
The only parties in the current spate of airline bankruptcies that
seem to be flourishing are the airline executives, the lawyers and a
handful of bankruptcy financing firms. This greedy triad has been
working the bankruptcy system to line their pockets - and to hell
with the rest of the players.
According to SEC filings in February and March last year, Glenn
Tilton, the current CEO of United, was awarded more than $20 million
by the airline's board of directors; by some estimates, he is now one
of the largest shareholders in the company that he shepherded into
bankruptcy. According to UnionVoice.org, his handpicked legal firm,
Kirkland & Ellis, has charged more than $50 million, and one attorney
has pocketed almost $2 million in fees for a recent year.
USA Today reported only this week that SEC filings showed United's
top five executives received $25.7 million in the form of cash, stock
or exercisable options. Of that, CEO Glenn Tilton received $9.3
million, the filing said.
CNNMoney.com reported as far back as 2003 that former CEOs have
reaped stunning salaries and even more astonishing pension deals. The
former CEO of Delta worked for the company less than six years and
walked away with a pension promising a million dollars a year. Unlike
the pensions of the airline rank and file, his retirement is
protected and guaranteed by a special executive trust fund.
Similarly, though its former CEO Donald Carty was forced to retire
when the size of his pension became public, other executives at
American Airlines still enjoy the protection of a special trust fund
guaranteeing their pensions. The pilots and flight attendants, on the
other hand, may see their hard-earned pensions slashed and eventually
sent over to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation. They get no
guarantees.
The American Airlines pilots are incensed at the phenomenal increase
in pay that their airline's top executives have seen. According to
Airline Pilots Association figures, the five top executives at
American stand to receive $26,498,899 this year, up from the
$3,777,325 they received in 2002. During the same period, the pilots
pay actually decreased 4 percent -- even though they now spend 26
percent more time in the air.
According to Arianna Huffington, quoted in WorkingForChange.com, the
former CEO and the former CFO of US Airways, who together piloted
that airline into debtor's land, reportedly each walked away with $35
million in salary, bonuses and stock options in 1998. They then
feathered their retirement nest by receiving administrative credit
for more than 20 years that they weren't actually on the job. The
CEO, Stephen Wolf, left the company with a $15 million pension cash-
out just six months before US Airways declared bankruptcy.
Even recent announcements by Delta Air Lines that its workers will
share in the airline's profits once it emerges from bankruptcy are
suspect, as the plans continue to treat executives as royalty.
According to reports in the Atlanta Business Chronicle, Delta's
39,000 non-contract employees will share an estimated $480 million in
stock and cash payments (or about $12,300 each) while 1,200
executives will share a jackpot of restricted stock, stock options
and performance shares estimated at about $240 million (or about
$200,000 each). My arithmetic calculates that the executives are
receiving 16 times the share of the non-contract employees.
What happens to you when you don't pay your bills? Do you get a bonus
or a lush retirement package? Of course not. And yet there seems to
be no stigma attached to airline bankruptcy. In fact, the airlines
are still being treated as highly respected corporations in the
business community. They are allowed to compete and bid for new
routes and they are allowed to restructure their fleets with
multibillion-dollar purchases. It is business as usual - unless one
of the bankrupt airlines is your employer or owes you money.
Theoretically, the bankruptcy courts approve major management
decisions but, in fact, no bankruptcy court judge seems comfortable
overriding airline management - even when unions fight the executives
aggressively in court. The legal system seemingly follows a principle
that the good of the corporation and its executives trumps the good
of the employees, stockholders and creditors.
The inconvenient truth is that bankruptcy has become part of the
management process in our country. In the airline industry,
bankruptcy is the norm rather than the exception. It is used not to
cull the weak and mismanaged airlines but to provide a shelter from
which to pursue advantage.
Northwest Airlines is a case in point. It landed in bankruptcy court
with more than a billion dollars in the bank. Management even
claimed, as it declared Chapter 11, that it didn't need the
protection of the bankruptcy court to keep operating. It was a bold
and shameless maneuver to use the bankruptcy courts to batter its
unions, avoid paying its bills and renege on its contracts.
For years the airlines were a regulated industry whose salaries,
benefits, pensions and profits (and sky-high airfares) were protected
by a cozy relationship with the government. Though the industry has
been deregulated for more than a decade, legacy airline executives
have found a new way to suckle at the teat of the government - this
time through the bankruptcy courts.
When a system allows continued mismanagement and provides no apparent
consequences for the failing executives, it puts the burden of pain
on creditors, stockholders and employees who have done nothing wrong.
And while bankruptcy actions have not much affected airline
schedules, ticket prices and frequent-flier programs, the public is
certainly paying for these bankrupt airlines' mistakes. Taxpayers are
footing more and more of the unpaid airline bills (money for the
Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation and for airport bonds both come
from taxpayers) and court costs and higher prices are all passed
along to consumers when the airlines don't pay their bills.
Our seemingly endless bankruptcy process is no longer serving the
public good. In this upside-down, Alice-in-Wonderland world of
bankruptcy relief, the ones wearing the smug, Cheshire-cat smiles are
the airline executives who created the problem in the first place,
along with their bankers and lawyers.
Go figure.
Princedietrich
Retired Starchecker
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2004
- Posts
- 1,437
Because one of the posters has a union hating signature. Someone got their panties in a bunch because of it.
They seem to forget we live in a democratic country and people can think, say or believe what they want.
Again I am pro-union but I believe in freedom of speech, thinking and belief. Unlike others that have over 25,000 hours. That must mean he is the almighty aviation king. Oh yeah he has a Masters too.
Let me throw this out there. When the Teamsters endorse the Democratic runner for 2008, and you know they will. Are all of you guys going to vote that way because it was endorsed by our union? I for one will never vote for a Democrat, for that matter I will never vote for anyone that I do not believe in just because my union endorses them. We all know that the union will endorse the Democrat.
fischman
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2005
- Posts
- 2,360
I would personally vote my feelings. However, and I don't mean this as an attack, anybody who votes Republican and is pro-union is a contradiction. You can guess how I feel about the Republican party from my signature.
Iam3rd
God, Others, Self
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2004
- Posts
- 143
Go to www.ibt1108.org
scroll down. 3rd hyperlink to the right...
Looks like it says "Flexjets Pilots" to me... That can't be right.
I guess you better start working on the app for Citation Shares. Sorry to burst your bubble.
All that proves is that you can't please everybody. But a mojority of Flex pilots are happy otherwise I believe they would be unionized......right?
And from what I hear form Flex pilots, they don't even come close to having enough votes to make it happen.
IronManNDFW
Condo Jet Captain
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2001
- Posts
- 84
Just wait. He will see "the light" after his IOE. Once he get around "real line pilots."
After he get's his hat handed to him a couple of times, and he has to do the carpet dance, he will either: a) get out of flying or b) go back to a 91 only job, where their is peace and harmony forever and ever. Cumby I my lord...
Remember the ABC's of a business. Airplanes, Boats, and Condo's. When business is good they obtain these things, when business is bad they get rid of these things. Now that we have the "condo jets" and with teh airlines the way they are and lets not forget TSA, they will be happy to come to the "Condo community" and you will be left sitting in the ramp sucking your thumb wondering what just happened...
After he get's his hat handed to him a couple of times, and he has to do the carpet dance, he will either: a) get out of flying or b) go back to a 91 only job, where their is peace and harmony forever and ever. Cumby I my lord...
Remember the ABC's of a business. Airplanes, Boats, and Condo's. When business is good they obtain these things, when business is bad they get rid of these things. Now that we have the "condo jets" and with teh airlines the way they are and lets not forget TSA, they will be happy to come to the "Condo community" and you will be left sitting in the ramp sucking your thumb wondering what just happened...
Iam3rd
God, Others, Self
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2004
- Posts
- 143
So what the difference in them telling me over the phone and them telling me in the cockpit?
Obviously y'all have know idea what the pilots at Flex are thinking. Its only what y'all have heard, what you have read. Its all the same.
I would personally vote my feelings. However, and I don't mean this as an attack, anybody who votes Republican and is pro-union is a contradiction. You can guess how I feel about the Republican party from my signature.
I agree with you on that. Most pilots are conservative and still are pro-union. It does not make sense to me at times either.
You can have Hillary and Nancy. I will take GW and Cheney over them two crack pots any day. Just look where the majority leader is the last few days. She is in Syria, like she is going to stop those A-Holes from doing and hiding all the terrorists. She is just showing her true colors. Kind of like Jane Fonda and all the other liberal commies.
gunfyter
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2002
- Posts
- 3,785
NEVER. I have NEVER voted for a Democrat... and NEVER will....
OK maybe if Zell Miller runs.
fischman
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2005
- Posts
- 2,360
Give it up man. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Of course in an organization of +2700 people they are not all going to agree with everything. To expect this is both foolish and asinine.
Here's one more thing to think about (using your rational). Just because your friends are company stooges doesn't mean everybody there likes it. As a matter of fact, I have a friend who quit flex to fly a King Air. At NJA there are hundreds of guys who either turned down jobs at flex or quit (Captains mind you) to come to us.
I'm not trying to bash flex or to say that NJA is SOOO much of a better place to work (I am a little biased of course) but your lack of experience and public union bashing doesn't even border ignorance. You are far beyond that.
When you have an idea what you're talking about come back for a spirited debate. I would welcome it. Until then, sit back, learn, and look pretty.
Iam3rd
God, Others, Self
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2004
- Posts
- 143
I agree everyone is not going to be happy there, but as I said before, obviously the majority is happy there otherwise they would be unionized....right?
Iam3rd
God, Others, Self
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2004
- Posts
- 143
It does not make sense to me either as to how a person who is a republican can also be pro-union. The union as a whole and the policies that they support go against everything that the republicans stand for. To me if a person is a republican and pro-union, its a compromise of your own beliefs just to get an extra dollar. But of course that is what makes this country so great.....its a persons freedom to do that.
cathaywannabe
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2005
- Posts
- 85
After sitting with ALPA for years, I've realized that just like any other bureaucratic organization, unions can become corrupt easily and frequently don't act in their member’s best interest.
Unions are great on paper but as we see from this thread pilots frequently don't act in their best interest. When pilots don't act in their best interest obviously they will bring the entire labor group down with them. Hence, ALPA in the last 6 years.
Democrat or Republican isn't important. You can have either anti-labor or pro-labor viewpoints from either side.
However, each time a union member tells me how much they like Bush I wish I could take back my union dues, such a union will eventually fail. Ask any pro-Bushie (neo-con) how a man like Bush diminishes the chance of a fair contract through the National Mediation Board or PEB as it relates to the Railway Labor Act and they won't have a clue.
I've yet to see a corporation not negotiate in its best interest (i.e. get taken), but I've seen it with airline pilot unions time and time again. There is no excuse for a union man to vote for Bush. It's like having a Marine vote for bin Laden.
I don't have a problem with people voting for whoever they choose. But, someone who is pro-union and pro-Bush has their friggin' head in the sand.
Unions are great on paper but as we see from this thread pilots frequently don't act in their best interest. When pilots don't act in their best interest obviously they will bring the entire labor group down with them. Hence, ALPA in the last 6 years.
Democrat or Republican isn't important. You can have either anti-labor or pro-labor viewpoints from either side.
However, each time a union member tells me how much they like Bush I wish I could take back my union dues, such a union will eventually fail. Ask any pro-Bushie (neo-con) how a man like Bush diminishes the chance of a fair contract through the National Mediation Board or PEB as it relates to the Railway Labor Act and they won't have a clue.
I've yet to see a corporation not negotiate in its best interest (i.e. get taken), but I've seen it with airline pilot unions time and time again. There is no excuse for a union man to vote for Bush. It's like having a Marine vote for bin Laden.
I don't have a problem with people voting for whoever they choose. But, someone who is pro-union and pro-Bush has their friggin' head in the sand.
Last edited:
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
