Operating Cost: Legacy 650 vs 7X

[LegacyDriver]

I'm posting this here so as not to further hijack the other thread. I apologize for the lack of paragraph spacing. My java plugin refuses to work. I'm not here to debate. I simply don't like being called a liar.
-
I spoke with some people at Embraer and got the following (I'm summarizing not quoting):
-
Per Conklin and DeDecker (CDD) Annual cost (based on something like 175K miles of flying) - EMB $4.9M vs 7X $6.9M
-
CDD - EMB $2900 / hour vs 7X $3300 / hour
-
CDD includes engine mx cost in its figures (the Rolls Royce engine mx program will bring the EMB #s down some). Business and Commercial Aviation (BCA) does *not* include engine mx in its cost analysis.
-
Quote: I believe the confusion is at B&CA publication.
-
On the May issue they published the following numbers for fuel burn:
-
Legacy 650 = 4,795 for 1000 nm segment
-
Falcon 7X = 4,855 for 1000 nm segment
-
However, on the Operations Planning Guide (Aug issue) they calculated the fuel cost based on :
-
Legacy 650 = 4,931 for 1000 nm segment
-
Falcon 7X = 4,855 for 1000 nm segment
-
The correct values are from the May issue, and the Falcon 7X is more expensive. -
End quote.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

(Yawn)

 

[LegacyDriver]

Sorry G. I got called out for not posting any numbers so I've posted them.

 

[BoilerUP]

B&CA 2010 Ops Planning Guide (pages 81 & 83) shows total direct cost for a 1000nm trip to be $5096.61 for the Legacy 600, $5171.46 for the Legacy 650, and $4761.36 for the 7X. On this metric (and the 300/600nm segment costs), the 7X is cheaper to operate.

Hourly variable operating costs from the same pages above are $2052.35/hr for the Legacy 600, $2041.37 for the Legacy 650, and $2085.27/hr for the 7X. On this metric, the Legacies are marginally less expensive to operate.

Its important to note that while the Falcon costs a few bucks more per hour to operate, the 7X flies the 1000nm trip in 2+17 to get the lower trip costs at top, while the Embraer 650 (which isn't certified yet) does it in 2+32 and the Legacy 600 in 2+29...and "missions are calculated using a mufacturer recommended cruise setting".

I don't doubt the total annual expense of ownership is cheaper for an Embraer - their acquisition cost is 60% that of the Falcon. Then again, the Legacy 650 will have nearly 2000nm less range than the Falcon, will fly at a lower speed & altitude over than ~33% shorter range, and will have far less residual value than the Falcon in the future.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Sorry G. I got called out for not posting any numbers so I've posted them.

Well, I have your resume so I know your aircraft experience....but how about your sales and acquisition experience?

You posted a 1000nm comparison between a regional jet and a Long Range Bizjet. Why?

Do you know why rich individuals buy brand new planes? - Mission, Comfort, and Return on Investment. They want to get where they are going nonstop, do it comfortably and know that they spent their money wisely.

Find us some more facts on the Legacy vs 7X:

Mission (this wont take long)
Hows the Legacy fuel burn on a nonstop 5500nm leg (7X is approx 29,000lbs)

Comfort
Whats the WSCoD cabin at FL400 (7X is 3900ft)
How the cabin noise there (7X is 50db?)
Humidifier/HEPA filter on WSCoD?

Value (This is the most important one LD)
Hows the resale value these days on RJs? (some 7Xs have increased in value by $2+mil annually over the last 2-3 years, even in todays market)

Someone who bought a 7X 2-3 years ago has basically owned and flown it for free (if they were to sell it today) Not bad in a recession. I think you can say similar to newer G550 buyers and newer GLEX buyers as well. Those are the pretty much the only planes doing well in todays market. How about a Legacy?

These are the common sense questions someone looking to compare and acquire an airplane may ask.

I'm sure the new Legacy has many wonderful qualities which may convince a few arabs to buy them, but why would anyone care how much fuel it used on a 1000nm leg?

 

[LegacyDriver]

As I noted, BCA is wrong in their Ops Planning Guide -- they posted the wrong #s.
-
Funny how when I posted BCA #s a couple of years back that showed a significant cost advantage for the EMB I was ripped a new one because BCA was allegedly "unreliable." Now that BCA's *inaccurate* #s show the 7X is cheaper they are being upheld as truth. ?????
-
BCA does not factor engine mx into its costs. Once that goes into play the EMB does much better than BCA shows, as reflected in CDD.
-
Say what you want about block times, etc. The EMB is significantly cheaper and CDD says so. Even a 7X is cheaper at .78M than at its MMO. Adding 5 mins to block time can save a few hundred bucks in fuel burn savings depending on what you are paying for Jet A. If going fast saved gas airliners would be designed to go .95M instead of .78M-.80M.
-
The residual value argument is also silly and completely speculative. Nobody has a clue what these airplanes will be worth in 5, 10, or 20 years. A certain well known Fortune 10 company saw the value of its Falcons drop overnight by more than 50 percent on airframes from 2 to 8 years in age. They lost their shirt selling them at a huge loss. The EMB's operational cost savings alone would have absorbed most (and in some cases all) of that loss.

 

[LJ45]

not bad #'s for the 7x, considering it has three engines to care for and feed.

 

[LegacyDriver]

CDD #s are based on annual usage, G. (Either 115,000NM or 175,000NM.) Either way you slice it, the EMB saves $2M a year over the Falcon in total outlay. Resale value is speculative. As for the rest of your questions I will look into it. Someone posted that the 7X was cheaper over 1000NM. I've proven that in fact the EMB is not only cheaper over 1000 miles but 100,000 miles. The more miles it flies the more $ you save.
-
And since when do "Arabs" care about what stuff costs? They can afford the 7X if they wanted it. Clearly it doesn't fit the mission. Maybe they hate Frogs. The EMB is a success and all the ppl who dump on it aren't gonna change that.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

-
The residual value argument is also silly and completely speculative.

I hope thats not the average Legacy salesmans line when the topic comes up.

(about 5 mins into conversation?)

Aside from their personal needs (trip/comfort etc) every single wealthy person I have flown cares deeply about this. Its nothing more than an asset.





:0

 

[LegacyDriver]

not bad #'s for the 7x, considering it has three engines to care for and feed.

BCA does not factor engine mx into its numbers. That's a skew. That said Falcons tend to burn a lot less fuel than competing airframes do they not? They advertise themselves as "green" of late.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

-
And since when do "Arabs" care about what stuff costs? They can afford the 7X if they wanted it. Clearly it doesn't fit the mission. Maybe they hate Frogs. The EMB is a success and all the ppl who dump on it aren't gonna change that.

I guess it might fit the mission?

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...rter-service-in-the-middle-east-92770754.html

But really....whats the point? Most of us dont care what we fly, we just want good jobs.

This can go on forever (or at least 7-8 pages) but it always ends the same........

:0

 

[gern_blanston]

(Yawn)

and

the Legacy 650 will have nearly 2000nm less range than the Falcon, will fly at a lower speed & altitude over than ~33% shorter range, and will have far less residual value than the Falcon in the future.

and

You posted a 1000nm comparison between a regional jet and a Long Range Bizjet. Why?

and

But really....whats the point? Most of us dont care what we fly, we just want good jobs.

 

[Sandhawk]

I spoke with some people at Embraer and got the following (I'm summarizing not quoting):

Why don't you call the people at Dassault and see what their numbers are on the 7X versus the WSCoD?

I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle....

But in the end, do you want at POS regional airliner with an extra gas tank or a purpose built long-range bizjet?

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Why don't you call the people at Dassault and see what their numbers are on the 7X versus the WSCoD?

I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle....

But in the end, do you want at POS regional airliner with an extra gas tank or a purpose built long-range bizjet?

Word, and all the numbers are projected. The Dassault/G stream product numbers are demonstrated.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Embraers always beat the book #s. They're not "projected" they're guaranteed. Embraer is notoriously conservative with their performance #s. That's due to the fact that their traditional clients are airlines and the airplanes *have* to meet the promised #s or else...
-
I will take my "POS RJ with an extra gas tank" any day of the year. Airliners are by necessity reliable, rugged, and redundant. The Legacy is the leader in these departments by far. And I like a cockpit built for tall American pilots, not short, tiny-footed French "Small Fry" pilots... I do care what I fly because I don't like leg cramps, sweating my a** off, etc. I won't fly a Lear no matter what it pays. Pay me less but gimme elbow room, lots of backup systems, and nice air conditioning.

-
Yep, this always ends the same after seven pages -- with me being right.

 

[2EASYPilot]

Embraers always beat the book #s. They're not "projected" they're guaranteed. Embraer is notoriously conservative with their performance #s. That's due to the fact that their traditional clients are airlines and the airplanes *have* to meet the promised #s or else...
-
I will take my "POS RJ with an extra gas tank" any day of the year. Airliners are by necessity reliable, rugged, and redundant. The Legacy is the leader in these departments by far. And I like a cockpit built for tall American pilots, not short, tiny-footed French "Small Fry" pilots... I do care what I fly because I don't like leg cramps, sweating my a** off, etc. I won't fly a Lear no matter what it pays. Pay me less but gimme elbow room, lots of backup systems, and nice air conditioning.



-
Yep, this always ends the same after seven pages -- with me being right.

The AC works quite well on our two Falcons thank you...I also fit my 6' frame into the cockpit fine. Although most cockpits sould use a little more room. Global size would be nice!

 

[xrated]

Doesn't the 7x do .91m or so. Whats the Legacy do....72-.73m?? It's like trying to compare a C-172 to a King Air 200...there is no point.

 

[G100driver]

L/D ... why in the world do you do this? You act as if someone has told you that your children are ugly.

An airplane is simply a means to a paycheck. If my boss wants me tofly a Legacy I will be happy so long as my pay does not get lowered to that of a commuter pilot.

G200 makes several excellent points regarding the differences. However, in reality, it is obvious Lecacy has done a great job of turning a commuter jet aircraft into a corporate configuration thus opening up the long range (falcon 2000EX/605 range) market to folks who could not afford Falcon/Bomardier aircraft. For that I say, bravo ... Any time we put more private individuals into aircraft it is good for all of us.

Anyhow, at the end of the day ... who cares? Just long as we are making living wages.

 

[TMMT]

L/D ... why in the world do you do this?

He's just upset the Legacy didn't come with a free penis stretcher...

 

[Sandhawk]

He's just upset the Legacy didn't come with a free penis stretcher...

Those only come standard on a Gulfstream!!

:laugh: