Open Letter to B19

[Guitar Guy]

I don't get it? CEO's are making tons of money so that justifies deamonizing them? You do realize that you are deamonizing people for doing exactly what you want to do....make more money.

The issue is that some CEO's (and other company officers) exhibit deplorable behavior. In some cases, the behavior has even been illegal.

Making broad generalizations "unions are all evil" or conversely, "all unions are perfect" is as fundamentally flawed as saying that all management are somehow perfect. There are plenty of examples to illustrate.

 

[ksu_aviator]

The issue is that some CEO's (and other company officers) exhibit deplorable behavior. In some cases, the behavior has even been illegal.

Making broad generalizations "unions are all evil" or conversely, "all unions are perfect" is as fundamentally flawed as saying that all management are somehow perfect. There are plenty of examples to illustrate.

I never generalized unions in that way. I did say that the natural tendency, due to internal pressure, is to exaggerate the current situation with in a company. That can not be denied. Happy employees don't vote to go on strike. Negotiations don't work with out the threat of action by either side.

Part of the reason I posted an argument contrary to the popular opinion was to illustrate the mob mentality that the preponderance of posters in this thread have exhibited. Case in point, I post that unions aren't perfect and CEO's aren't all evil and I get lumped into "part of the problem" almost immediately.

The real problem is people that think they have an inherent right to a job, that the successful should forefit their earnings and that they (as a peon) know better than those trained to manage. (Before you blast me on that, think about the I-Phone passengers that want to tell you the weather is fine)

Until some can get over those mentallities, unions will continue to be weak, in general. Try working harder and proving that you deserve a raise.

 

[dime line]

I never generalized unions in that way. I did say that the natural tendency, due to internal pressure, is to exaggerate the current situation with in a company. That can not be denied. Happy employees don't vote to go on strike. Negotiations don't work with out the threat of action by either side.

Part of the reason I posted an argument contrary to the popular opinion was to illustrate the mob mentality that the preponderance of posters in this thread have exhibited. Case in point, I post that unions aren't perfect and CEO's aren't all evil and I get lumped into "part of the problem" almost immediately.

The real problem is people that think they have an inherent right to a job, that the successful should forefit their earnings and that they (as a peon) know better than those trained to manage. (Before you blast me on that, think about the I-Phone passengers that want to tell you the weather is fine)

Until some can get over those mentallities, unions will continue to be weak, in general.

Try working harder and proving that you deserve a raise

.

Your paid not what you deserve, your paid what you negotiate......Nothing more....You will never get a raise with that thinking in aviation. All of us will recieve the bare minimum to get the job done, nothing more. Unions provide a contract, that is the end result right? CEOs have contracts too right? Seems like your trying to play the "devils advocate", fine, but all the anti-union folk really have no leg to stand on. Why is it so wrong to have a contract with your company, like the CEOs have? That is the basis for what a union stands for right?

 

[Hobbes]

I never generalized unions in that way. I did say that the natural tendency, due to internal pressure, is to exaggerate the current situation with in a company. That can not be denied. Happy employees don't vote to go on strike. Negotiations don't work with out the threat of action by either side.

Part of the reason I posted an argument contrary to the popular opinion was to illustrate the mob mentality that the preponderance of posters in this thread have exhibited. Case in point, I post that unions aren't perfect and CEO's aren't all evil and I get lumped into "part of the problem" almost immediately.

The real problem is people that think they have an inherent right to a job, that the successful should forefit their earnings and that they (as a peon) know better than those trained to manage. (Before you blast me on that, think about the I-Phone passengers that want to tell you the weather is fine)

Until some can get over those mentallities, unions will continue to be weak, in general. Try working harder and proving that you deserve a raise.

The reason you are so quickly demonized KSU is that within this thread you are dealing with people who ARE under the thumb of exceedingly poor management, driving a company into the ground, while reaping every possible benefit themselves. A manager that has been here a SHORTER time than any line pilot, and has a track history of driving an aviation company into obliteration. Not ALL management is incompetent (ours IS) and not all unions are corrupt (ours is not.) I am sure in some other outfit there are good managers that care about their employees and in some outfits there are unions that over inflate the issues at hand. Let me assure you, our issues are not overinflated by our union. If anything, they issues we deal with are not even truly brought into context on this web, or even our own union board. Our union has a steadfast commitment that I witness regularly to only shine the light on what is truly necessary; they do not shoot from the hip at ever ripple in the pond.

I am sure you are a very intellectual individual, and I would welcome the opportunity to hear just what stake you have in this current issue which makes your presence in this thread make sense. If you have contrary views to where Flight Options should go, fine, you are entitled to your view, but WHY are you posting here? Are you flying a fractional jet?

I would pose the question that you might just be one of B19's many aliases...a practice none of us union supporters seems to deem ethical or necessary. In order to further his point, he had to fabricate other folks to keep the ball rolling. On the pro union side we have real issues we are trying to address within our own company, you know, the one that issues OUR paychecks, and the one that gives me good reason to be on this thread posting my opinions and ideas....

 

[bchjetdrvr]

Try working harder and proving that you deserve a raise. Hey Einstien, it's been years since the FLOPS pilots have been at those pathetic wages and years since the NJA folks have been making double for same job.

The real problem is people that think they have an inherent right to a job,

No that is NOT the problem. Let me school you on how that sentence was supposed to read.

What KSU meant to say -
"The real problem is a management that think they have an inherent right to make the pilots job & life hell. The real problem is a management that refuses to negotiate in good faith. The real problem is management conducting retaliation and condoning favoritism. The real problem is unfair salaries for the professional skill required."

So like Hobbs stated, you can't even fathom the attrocities that flops mang has/is committing. So much is not published here at FI it's staggering. So let's just throw some stuff out there for fun, shall we? Good---OK.

1. For years Flops pilots used to enjoy any domicile that was served by 3 airlines. Not anymore. A tier system that is a joke. Meant to choke off certain pilots at higher pay scales. Only to hire in fresh cheap meat into the new domicile and year one pay.
2. Health care turned self insured.
3. Schedulers putting crews in "crew-rot" at 5am with no plane, or co-pilot. Only to sit for 14 hours.
4. "Mistakenly" cancelling crew meals.
5. A new Canpass policy requiring pilots to have Canpasss (Not required at NJA hmmm) For years this wasn't required. Union voted in, now a new policy, hmmm. But if your a kool-aid drinking pilot and you can't get Canpass you're not asked to resign or go on LOA.
6. If your a Kool-aid drinker and run a perfectly good mu-300 off an icy short runway without T/r's you get to keep your job.
7. If you preflight too slowly you lose your job.
8. If you taxi back with un-ruly pax, you lose your job cause of "inconviencing the client"
9. If a kool-aid drinking pilot turns you in and accuses you of breaking an airplane without evidence, so you can write it up, you lose your job.
10. Kool-aid drinking pilots that fly from mountainous airports to the coast you get to keep their job.
11. If you like to suck in engine covers, you keep your job if you live on the pink juice.
12. If you taxi a plane into another plane but might be the type of pilot inclined to sue if fired over the incident, then you get to keep your job.
13. But be sure not to write a post on a private board that could be deamed "inciting". You'll be fired quick.
14. Management has spent untold thousands and thousands to Ford & Harrision the union busters instead of putting the money towards their pilots. Mang loves to step over $10 to pick up a $1.
15. Flops mang enjoys working the pilots on overtime and promises to pay them next year for services rendered.
16. Continous rise in health care premiums with Plans being reduced and/or taken away. Cost increase of premiums over 300%!! with benefits decreasing. Might have something to do with the company being self insured...hmmmm
17. Enjoy your assigned forced vacation time you spent years earning, by mang forcing it on you (excuse me) "assigning" it to you during the awesome months of March, Sept, April.
18. Flops mang enjoys paying commuter wages to pilots that fly around people that have incomes in the top 10% of the wealthiest people in America. Can you say What The F$CK OVER!
19. Flops SIC's upgrading after 5yrs enjoy a ZERO $$ pay raise. SIC 5 yr pay is equal to 1st year captain. It's called SLIDE TO POVERTY.
20. Over a year and half since the 1108 voted in and they aren't even close to a contract. Mang is stalling stalling stalling stalling. Nice company to work for, they really care about the pilots and company and want to move forward.

So to all the nay sayers out there...Would you want to be treated this way? Do you want to be paid these wages for that amount of work done? (8 days on. Maybe 7 off with the new rules) for that amount of service provided, knowdledge, training, experience and skill required!?

A f%cking doctor isn't required to stay on his "A" game like a pilot is every 6 months. Yet toll booth collectors are making more, valet freaking parkers in Vegas make more then FLOPS pilots. Line guys moving bags from the ground to the trunk make more. So KSU - the pilots don't "have work harder to prove they deserve a pay raise" They've been doing it for years! They deserve years of back pay for service already proven worthy of higher salaries!

-Sorry I sugar coated it.

 

[fischman]

I don't get it? CEO's are making tons of money so that justifies deamonizing them? You do realize that you are deamonizing people for doing exactly what you want to do....make more money.

There is a difference between $hitting on a gold toilet and making a respectable wage. FLOPS pilots are from from either.

I suggest you learn what you are talking about before you type it "purple puzzy"

 

[B19 Flyer]

IATA statement on unions and the industry turnaround

Your paid not what you deserve, your paid what you negotiate......Nothing more....You will never get a raise with that thinking in aviation. All of us will recieve the bare minimum to get the job done, nothing more. Unions provide a contract, that is the end result right? CEOs have contracts too right? Seems like your trying to play the "devils advocate", fine, but all the anti-union folk really have no leg to stand on. Why is it so wrong to have a contract with your company, like the CEOs have? That is the basis for what a union stands for right?

Even IATA feels that organized labor is one of the two top issues that could place the industry at risk in 2008. This is the opinion of IATA, not me. (but boy, do I agree with it!) And remember, IATA is worldwide, not just here in the US.
_______________________

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINN2847835920071128

Labor, credit woes weigh on airlines - IATA exec


Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:16pm EST

WASHINGTON, Nov 28 (Reuters) - The financial turnaround at airlines, especially in the United States, would be at risk in 2008 if unions were too aggressive in trying to recoup wages and benefits lost in restructuring, the chief of the industry's leading trade group said.

"Unfortunately, as the industry shows even fragile profitability, labor starts to look for a free lunch. Already we've seen strikes from France to Japan," Giovanni Bisignani of the International Air Transport Association told an industry group on Wednesday.
"Several key U.S. contracts will be negotiated next year -- if labor pursues an agenda as an irresponsible adversary, our common future is limited," Bisignani said.

Globally, labor represents 23 percent of airline costs, down 5 percentage points from 2001 -- the start of a six-year restructuring accelerated by the Al Qaeda hijack attacks on New York and Washington.
During that period four U.S. carriers, United Airlines parent UAL Corp (UAUA.O: Quote, Profile, Research), US Airways Group Inc (LCC.N: Quote, Profile, Research), Delta Air Lines Inc (DAL.N: Quote, Profile, Research) and Northwest Airlines Corp (NWA.N: Quote, Profile, Research), fell into bankruptcy and AMR Corp (AMR.N: Quote, Profile, Research), parent of U.S. leader American Airlines, nearly sought protection from creditors.
Bisignani also worries that U.S. carriers could have a hard time upgrading their aging fleets due to general economic uncertainty and continuing credit woes where debt remains high relative to cash flow.
"Lenders will be cautious and even if orders are placed today, production lines at Boeing (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research) and Airbus (EAD.DE: Quote, Profile, Research) (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) are virtually full for the next three years," Bisignani said.
About a third of the U.S. fleet is more than 25 years old, reducing the cost advantages of depreciation and heightening the impact of fuel costs since older jets are less efficient than the newest models.
IATA is poised next month to revise the industry's outlook to account for oil prices now pushing $100 per barrel. In September, the group projected 2008 profits of $7.8 billion, but the forecast was based on oil at just under $70 a barrel.
International carriers, especially in Europe, worry about U.S. credit market turmoil because of the potential impact on financing conditions and corporate travel. Premium travelers -- usually business customers -- account for 25 percent of traffic aboard the top-five European airlines on transatlantic flights, compared with 15 percent for the leading U.S. carriers, IATA figures show.
"That translates into a 30 percent yield premium for Europe," Bisignani said. (Reporting by John Crawley; Editing by Braden Reddall)

 

[FLYLOW22]

Even IATA feels that organized labor is one of the two top issues that could place the industry at risk in 2008. This is the opinion of IATA, not me. (but boy, do I agree with it!) And remember, IATA is worldwide, not just here in the US.
_______________________

Yes! Management IS greedy worldwide. YES! Corporate greed comes before labor at MANY companies worldwide.

B19 = Ignorant of the many positive results of Company/Union interaction and cooperation. Very ignorant. Most of the industry is a poor example though.

 

[Guitar Guy]

B19 - you do realize that IATA is a lobbying group for airline management, right?

 

[Guitar Guy]

The real problem is people that think they have an inherent right to a job, that the successful should forefit their earnings and that they (as a peon) know better than those trained to manage.

And yet some of those who are "trained to manage" are not good managers or leaders. Note the use of the word "some". Incompetence shouldn't be tolerated in the cockpit or the boardroom.

Try working harder and proving that you deserve a raise.

Ah, the carrot-on-the-stick approach. Someone else has already responded that one get what one negotiate. I'd also add that having worked under the merit-based compensation system in a previous career, that it's not without its abuses, sometimes rewarding the brown-noser and not the hard-worker.