On the numbers

[minitour]

Alot of instrument students at my school practice short fields just to not go cold on them.

And I'm sure there is a short strip with an instrument approach out there where that would be a good thing to do...

But I'm also thinking that you'd prbably have a 400-500' MDA and not a 200'DH too...

I dunno...

I know I know its a stupid topic but it was driving me crazy

-mini

 

[flywithi]

fly the plane

or you cold fly the approach at whatever spped you need to (70-120) and then slow it down when you need to (who is behind you) put on the spot you want to (wherever you want as long as it is what you intended so you are not sloppy) ease off on the brakes, all trainers slow down easy on the ground and in the air, and get off the runway within 30 seconds to a minute and it is all good. Basically fly the plane, decide what you want the plane to do and make it do it. just my dumb humble opinion that no one really wants anyway

 

[minitour]

I'm tired of that freakin back course! Next time I do a localizer I'm gonna turn the wrong way!

and DO be careful!

My ride was the ILS, BC, hold at the OM of the LOC and then the LOC PP.

Did the ILS perfect, missed was good, BC was good, missed was fine, hold was great, but on one of my turns inbound, I found myself wanting to "drag the needle" with me...corrected it at about half deflection with a "dum de dum de dum" turn back to the right...

Be careful!

-mini

 

[FlyingBuckI]

Next time I do a localizer I'm gonna turn the wrong way!

Have your instructor/ATC give you a BC hold and get used to watching the needle. I've flown that approach many times without a problem...it's all a matter of technique and being able to visualize where you are. (or find an a/c with an HSI and do it the 'easy' way)

btw, tell dave wesalo at epic that one of his ahp buddies says hello!

 

[Vector4fun]

Mini,

I used to take a good deal of pride in being able to touch down in the first 30' of runway. I learned that way because I flew out of a lot of short strips. But it's not a good practice at larger airports with APP and threshold lighing because often those lights are sticking 2-3' up in the air at the threshold. We just recently had a student take a few out.

But to comment on your other question, I love it when a pilot can make the first turn-off when there's faster traffic following. What kills us is when the aspiring Cessna pilot thinks they have to slow to 65 kts on a two or three mile final to do that. Hello, it's a fixed gear Cessna. If you're in the top of the white arc at a mile, you can be at 65 kts at the threshold, no problem, as long as you're not way high....

 

[PHX767]

Something else to consider

On ILS approaches, there is a TCH (threshold crossing height) listed just above the TDZE elevation (on Jepp charts anyway) . On most ILS's it is around 50 feet. That is the height that the GS antenna will be crossing the threshold. Consider that the GS antenna on most airliners is up on the front of the plane. Due to the body angle in final approach configuration, there is a LOT of airplane hanging down below the plane of the antenna. On the 767-300ER, (if I remember the ground school correctly) the clearance between the landing gear and the ground in feet is in the teens when on the GS crossing the threshold, and that is to touchdown 1000-1500 feet down the runway.

So it is a good habit for flying jets later on to fly the GS all the way to touchdown, although a lot of pilots will drift below the GS when they are over the pavement.

It is always appreciated when preceding traffic regardless of size clears the runway quickly. Have had cases where planes will stop on the runway and ask for directions to the FBO. Happened at MIA, had to go around.

 

[JetBlast2000]

Mini,

Maybe you’re being a little over sensitive. Bottom line is safety. As long as the maneuver is not in jeopardy, have at it. When I was teaching, I generally had my students aim for the beginning of the 1000 foot line. If one was not there, then the end of the first strip past the number (mainly for short fields). That way I could tell how exactly far past they landed and if it was PTS. Other than that, you should always have a touchdown point in mind. Builds confidence and marks skill progression. With my advanced students (CFI’s and the like) we would shoot an ILS and do a short field on the numbers with a soft field touchdown. Try that and see how well you control the a/c.

JB2k

 

[walkoshame]

I cant stand when people blind me with their taxi lights, people who give their life story over unicoms, blocking runways with their a/c (runups) so noboby else can enter, even though there is room elswhere, cutting me off in the traffic pattern (dangerously close), the list can go on and on and on,,,,,,so I guess every pilot has their pet peeves, I know I have many.

 

[avbug]

I fly several different jobs, so I see several sides of the same fence. When flying an ILS to BWI or LAX, yes, I'll follow the glideslop all the way down, and land in the touchdown zone. However, I also fly into a lot of smaller fields, frequently, and on these, I very often touch down on the numbers.

You need to look at the type of equipment, the field, and so forth.

An old saw tell us that the three most useless things in aviation are altitude above us, runway behind us, and air in the fuel tanks.

For many of us who learned to fly with that firmly in mind, you'll see us taxi into position by using all of the runway, and I mean all of it. Not just turning onto the runway and positioning along the yellow stripe. Do we need that extra few feet? Maybe not, but it's really quite useless behind us.

Landing on that runway, assuming I can assure safety (wouldn't be doing it if I couldn't), I'll go for the numbers and use all the runway. And I'll roll out full length if I'm not pressed by following traffic...I don't use any more brake than I need to either...also old habits, and a darn good habit.

I do land down the runway with the glideslope, but it always grates on me. I recently flew an owner in his medium turboprop. We came back internationally, and landed long on a runway served by a glideslope. When we got out, he told me the next runway we'd be using, his home runway, was a lot shorter. He asked if I thought that was going to be a problem, considering the length we'd just used. He was surprised that so much runway was consumed, after watching that first thousand feet go by, and then a little more as we landed.

At his home field, considerably shorter, we stopped in about 1,400 feet (which I thought was pretty good, considering the airplane), and he was quite happy with that. I did put it on the numbers, used max reverse, a little light braking, and then let it roll. He had zero confidence issues with the airplane after that.

Do what you need to do according to the flying needs at the time. Given the opportunity, choice and the circumstance, I'll land on the numbers every time.

That runway behind you is awfully wasteful.

 

[urflyingme?!]

People that try to put it exactly on the number every single time are dnagerous. Period. bringing a plane in at 1.05 Vso is stupid. Espcially at an airport on a mesa like mine. A gust of wind from behind or some guy taxiing onto the runway and ur dead.

 

[avbug]

Who said anything about landing at 1.05 Vso?

You think those who can and do land on the numbers are dangerous, do you? This is the voice of experience speaking?

From what mesa do you fly? You go try landing a loaded airplane on a true mesa runway where you have just enough room to get down and stopped, and where the runway is as wide as the landing gear (go try out Sandwash, Utah, some time), then tell me all about what's dangerous and what's not.

Let me guess. You fly out of St. George, UT, or perhaps Sedona, AZ, and think you've learned all there is to learn about flying, right?

 

[KigAir]

The other day, after shooting a partial panel BC (I went full deflection about 7 times..still ended up in front of the runway, but I digress..), my instructor told me to get off at the first taxiway. So I did...and the tires didn't even get any flat spots...but 850ft from threshold to the taxiway isn't that impressive now that I think about it.

Also, using a highspeed taxiway doesn't count.

 

[A Squared]

I'm guessing that all of you "don't land on the numbers" types have never flown into a strip in which the useable surface is shorter than the distance between the threshold and the aiming point on a big runway.

 

[greyhound]

An experienced corporate pilot once told me they land with the least amount of runway possible in order to stay proficient in short field landings.(Falcon 50)
Even on a 10,000 ft. runway.

Like someone pointed out sooner, it's just to stay fresh on them.

And I personally agree.

If you get used to using 3000 ft. or more EVERY single time, you "Will" have trouble when you come in on a truly short field. (In a 172 or similar)

You'll think you're low, fly higher than you should be, and possibly overshoot or go-around.

You will also be afraid to come in slower, maybe making the numbers, but when you flare you'll float all the way to the other side of the mesa or grass.

Don't fall in the trap of believing that if you could do it once, you will be able to do it even if you don't practice it.

Short field landings require a different technique.

Approach slower, and steeper.

Practice makes proficiency!

 

[WizardPilot]

A lot of people at PVU do it all the time, they are full stop on the numbers with 5 guys in the pattern at a uncontrolled airport and taxi about 1/2 or 3/4 mile. It just totally duches things up. I came in yesterday and a guy in front of me decided do to a stop and go with 6 people in the pattern all gettin up in a bunch because guys have to go around because of stop and go's (when they sit on the runway forever, happens a lot) or guys land on the numbers on a 9000ft runway with one taxiway in the middle. Be curtious, land on the numbers when nobody else is there. But don't botch up everyones pattern by being stupid at a busy non-towered airport. Land longer if you have to to have a shorter taxi to the turn off.