On the numbers

[minitour]

Okay...maybe I'm missing the point here, but why is it every time I go to the airport I see people coming back in from all sorts of flights (even instrument flights) and they just have to land on the numbers?

I mean...there's nearly 5,000' of runway there...whats the fascination?

I can see for PPL/CPL/CFI training to practice a precision landing sure...touch it down on the numbers, but...last time I went up I sat in the back on an instrument training flight...we came in on the approach, circled and I could have sworn we were gonna touch down in the grass...as I looked out the window, we couldn't have been on the runway by more than 5' when the mains slammed down...

What gives? Someone PLEASE explain this fascination to me...it doesn't impress me at all.

-mini

 

[Flechas]

I guess it's kinda fun, and a challenge.
Kind of similar is when you go fly a X-C IFR, you try to stay on your altitude, airspeed, and on track, even though you are alone and you have plenty of sky for you.

Flechas

 

[minitour]

I guess it's kinda fun, and a challenge.
Kind of similar is when you go fly a X-C IFR, you try to stay on your altitude, airspeed, and on track, even though you are alone and you have plenty of sky for you.

Flechas

well yeah but you're supposed to stay on altitude, airspeed and track...

I mean...when I hear "alright, I'm gonna put it right on the numbers" from the guy up front...I don't think "wow...he's great!" I think more like.. "wow....why?"

 

[Flechas]

well yeah but you're supposed to stay on altitude, airspeed and track...

I mean...when I hear "alright, I'm gonna put it right on the numbers" from the guy up front...I don't think "wow...he's great!" I think more like.. "wow....why?"

I see your point mini, maybe some people are just trying to show off, but I think that if you keep trying to do it right, when the time comes that you better put it on the numbers and centerline because if not you become a NTSB report, you have more chances at doing it than the guy who always lands midfield or never cares.
Just MHO

Flechas

 

[Flechas]

Hey gkrangers, where do you fly in Daytona?

 

[minitour]

but 850ft from threshold to the taxiway isn't that impressive now that I think about it.

I guess thats what gets me really.

You still require X amount of room to stop (unless you come in with the parking brake on - which has happened to our students) so why is it such a big deal?

I know the guys behind me may want me to be off quick, but that's why I expedite TO the runway and then off the runway...no sense in coming in at 55 when I've got a 737 at 150 (just a guess) behind me... so I can make the first turnoff...meanwhile he's doing S-turns on final or going around (big bucks).

Maybe this is a question for the heavy drivers, would you prefer a person to go 70-80kts down final and roll a bit (brakes still do work at that speed) to maybe the middle of the field and still get off before you get to the threshold or have someone hangin on the prop so they can nail the numbers and make the first turnoff?

I guess either way could be quicker...depending on where the exits are...I dunno...I guess thats just my pet peeve...the whole "watch this" thing...usually right after that, I follow it with an "oh sh*t...I'm gonna die"

-mini

 

[Flechas]

Epic.

Who do you fly with?

 

[MTpilot]

I generally teach my students to land in the first third of the runway when we are operating at a smaller field (2 or 3 thousand feet). When we are at the big runway (9000 feet) I usually have them land on the third stripe. I'm with you theres no reason to "put it on the numbers" when you can pick any spot to work on precesion. Some times I even have them aim for the thousand foot markers, and if you look that's where the airliners leave all the rubber.

 

[Kream926]

you ever tried it mini?

 

[minitour]

you ever tried it mini?

Tried what? Landing on the numbers? Sure...lots of times. Usually the instructor will pull the engine abeam the numbers and say, "okay your engine quit, land on the numbers".

Here, I don't know why, but that's what he wants to see so...I'm not gonna argue with him or an examiner so I just do it. Now at shorter fields (went to 1K4 and used the short strip - 1800 and some change) sure...get it down as close as possible to the end without compromising safety...

But to come in off an ILS or another instrument approach and think they have to put it on the numbers just befuddles me...and doesn't impress me either. Sometimes I think they do it to try to be impressive...I dunno...maybe some people think its cool, I don't. I'd rather see them nice and stabilized all the way down, grease it on around the 1000' markers and hold the nosewheel gently up until it just settles to the pavement (not like a softfield landing where you hold it all the way back...just enough to let it gently settle). That, to me, is a good landing. IMO

-mini

 

[Kream926]

wouldnt they be going under G.S to hit numbers. correct me if im wrong but doesnt ILS GS take you down to the 1000 footers if you were to follow it down.

but anyways....who cares. let em aim for it. does it really bother you that much?? if everyone was using the 2nd half of the runway, would you complain about that to?

sorry to be soundin like douche, im really not tryin to, thats the way i talk. im a New Yorker.

 

[Art Vandalay]

Mini,


I am with you 100% on this one. If you want to try and be precise, fly the glideslope all the way down to the TDZE, which will put you on or near the 1000ft markers.

I think this "put it on the numbers" tendency comes from instructors teaching this to students early in their training. I know I used to always say this. Once you say this, the student will attempt to do this in all their future landings. I used to love watching the flight school students put the mains down in a nice stall 10 feet prior to the threshhold in the blastpad.


Art V., Vandalay Industries

 

[minitour]

wouldnt they be going under G.S to hit numbers. correct me if im wrong but doesnt ILS GS take you down to the 1000 footers if you were to follow it down.

but anyways....who cares. let em aim for it. does it really bother you that much?? if everyone was using the 2nd half of the runway, would you complain about that to?

sorry to be soundin like douche, im really not tryin to, thats the way i talk. im a New Yorker.

Yeah, the GS should be right at the 1000 foot marks (aiming point)

Would I be mad if they used the rest of the runway? Not at all...that's what its there for.

I guess I get frustrated when I see people thinking they have to touch at the numbers when there's no reason to.

Art,
Couldn't agree more...it's amazing how many students end up in the blast pad...why? There's nearly 5,000' of pavement ahead of them to set it down on...

Maybe it is an instruction thing...but a nice stabilized approach, good roundout and flare and smoothly on the mains then gently lowering the nosewheel...that's what I call a good landing...not one that hits at the numbers for the first turn off.

-mini

 

[Flyin Tony]

But anyway...I don't like to say "OK, I'm gonna put it right on the numbers"...then blow the spot by 1000 feet.QUOTE]

I do that all the time

 

[JonJohn82]

Alot of instrument students at my school practice short fields just to not go cold on them.

 

[minitour]

Alot of instrument students at my school practice short fields just to not go cold on them.

And I'm sure there is a short strip with an instrument approach out there where that would be a good thing to do...

But I'm also thinking that you'd prbably have a 400-500' MDA and not a 200'DH too...

I dunno...

I know I know its a stupid topic but it was driving me crazy

-mini

 

[flywithi]

fly the plane

or you cold fly the approach at whatever spped you need to (70-120) and then slow it down when you need to (who is behind you) put on the spot you want to (wherever you want as long as it is what you intended so you are not sloppy) ease off on the brakes, all trainers slow down easy on the ground and in the air, and get off the runway within 30 seconds to a minute and it is all good. Basically fly the plane, decide what you want the plane to do and make it do it. just my dumb humble opinion that no one really wants anyway

 

[minitour]

I'm tired of that freakin back course! Next time I do a localizer I'm gonna turn the wrong way!

and DO be careful!

My ride was the ILS, BC, hold at the OM of the LOC and then the LOC PP.

Did the ILS perfect, missed was good, BC was good, missed was fine, hold was great, but on one of my turns inbound, I found myself wanting to "drag the needle" with me...corrected it at about half deflection with a "dum de dum de dum" turn back to the right...

Be careful!

-mini

 

[FlyingBuckI]

Next time I do a localizer I'm gonna turn the wrong way!

Have your instructor/ATC give you a BC hold and get used to watching the needle. I've flown that approach many times without a problem...it's all a matter of technique and being able to visualize where you are. (or find an a/c with an HSI and do it the 'easy' way)

btw, tell dave wesalo at epic that one of his ahp buddies says hello!

 

[Vector4fun]

Mini,

I used to take a good deal of pride in being able to touch down in the first 30' of runway. I learned that way because I flew out of a lot of short strips. But it's not a good practice at larger airports with APP and threshold lighing because often those lights are sticking 2-3' up in the air at the threshold. We just recently had a student take a few out.

But to comment on your other question, I love it when a pilot can make the first turn-off when there's faster traffic following. What kills us is when the aspiring Cessna pilot thinks they have to slow to 65 kts on a two or three mile final to do that. Hello, it's a fixed gear Cessna. If you're in the top of the white arc at a mile, you can be at 65 kts at the threshold, no problem, as long as you're not way high....