Ok..why does EVERYONE hate MESA?

[flybrowntails]

standup=bendover

 

[tech]

Stand Ups are referred to by most people as the "night shift". I think some pilot groups refer to them as "Stand Ups" in order to argue more money for them by making them out to be something different than regular flying.

I think all of us have done them at one time or another. Any airline that runs 24/7 has to have some. If you didn't have a night shift who would be flying the "red eye" flights?

The additional money wasn't enough for some. If the turn time is too long a hotel room is also required at some airlines.

I think at many companies these flights are just business as usual.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

All the senior guys bid stand up, so they can be home every day

 

[Stifler's Mom]

wtf is a standup overnight?

DY FLTNO DPS-ARS DEPL ARRL BLKT GRNT
TU 4337 ATL-TRI 2140 2255 0115 0805

WE 4297 TRI-ATL 0700 0813 0113

BAP,

Here is probably the best CDO on the ATR at ASA. You leave ATL at 9:40, get to Tri Cities at 10:55, go to the hotel for 8 hours, then take the 7:00 am flight back to ATL in the morning. Go home for 12 hours (ie take a nap, do chores, go to gym etc) then return that night and do it all over again.

It's a great way to be at home during the days for whatever reason.

 

[Doggiepaddle]

They go really senior at Skywest. Some lines have over 85 hours pay on 30 hrs flown. 3 times a week maximum and home every day. And non taxable per diem with no expenses (no meals needed.)

Standup does not equal bendover, I will take the line anytime. Unless you are at an airline with no guaranteed duty pay like Mesa.

 

[tech]

That has got to be some of the worst utilization ever. No wonder some pilot groups are insisting on rooms.

 

[JTrain]

Tech

-You missed the whole point of the last few messages. You do get a hotel room! Like Cappy and the ASA and Skywest guy were saying, standups can be quite desirable. You get a decent night's sleep and get to be home during the daytime.

JTrain

 

[Crizz]

Standup does not equal bendover, I will take the line anytime. Unless you are at an airline with no guaranteed duty pay like Mesa.

Just curious how this works... What is different about "duty pay" at Mesa versus Skywest and others.

 

[jrcpilot]

Icywings2,

I for one will not answer in a rude and immature manner as some here have. Before I begin, why don't you guys that continue to put stupid and inappropriate comments on this forum start acting like the professionals you think you are. If we are to uphold this profession and get it out of its current state then we all need to act like adults and address each other in a more respectful manner.

Now to give you some insight from my perspective Icywings. I have worked for Delta Air Lines for 15 years. I was a ground instructor and just got hired at ExpressJet as an F/O. It wasn't until about 5 years ago that I decided to switch from ground training to actual flying. I have been watching the industry and the pilot situation for about the last 8 years. Here is the big stigma with what is happening with Mesa Airlines.

Mesa Airlines growth is a direct result of its labor contracts and the way the airline is run. They pay very low wages, their quality of life policies are not up to par with other carriers and the benefits are not up to par with most other carriers. Because of this lean management style of running the airline, JO has been succesful in aquiring a lot of contracts with national and major carriers to supplement their route systems.

For the up and coming starving career pilot, it is very tempting to look at an outfit like Mesa airlines and go fly for them. Some of the advantages of their current situation is a lot of growth. That is good for us as pilots cause its more seniority numbers behind us. Because of the growth quicker transition into the left seat for that lucrative PIC Turbine time that Majors like to see. The last advantage is that you probably hold a line quicker and build your time faster.

Now my one disclaimer I throw into this is that other airlines are experiencing good growth too and they offer a much better all around package to a pilot than Mesa. But because of Mesa and their tactics to acquire more and more contracts they force other carriers to compete and they too have to cut into their revenue yield and as a result cut costs to compete. Its a viscous cycle. To cut cost all airlines are going to look at their number one expense which is labor next to fuel. Fuel is out of their control to a certain degree so labor costs become the target.

The X factor to all this is the up and coming pilot. The more pilots that are out there that are willing to work for the low pay and benefits, then the more airlines will continue to suppress the compensation for the profession.

Mesa's growth has been staggering. This is alarming because there does not seem to be an end in sight as to how much lower the wages will go for our profession. The profession is under attack and we, the pilots, are actually contributing to its demise. When a new pilot is looking to break into the career he is willing to do almost anything to get on with an airline. But as soon as he is there and realizes what he is into the tune changes. I for one did not apply at Mesa, or some of the other carriers that really are offering horrible wages. ExpressJets current contract is not great either however their pilot group seems to be standing up for the profession as the Comair Pilots did and other groups. I hope to see a contract there soon that will at least pay a respectable wage to its pilot workforce. When it comes right down to it, pick an airline you will want to work for. Consider the ramifications of accepting a contract thats not sensible, consider your quality of life and the heath of the carrier you will work for.
Consider the comraderie of the pilot group and its unity. Consider how the pilots for the respective airline feel about their airline and how they are treated. Thats usually a good sign as to how happy they are or not. Weed through all the inappropriate comments and venting and listen for the truth. Lots of comments on here that are totally untrue and down right wrong so weed through that.
The AMA which governs how doctors get accredited and the schooling they receive actually influences how the up and coming Doctor applies and acquires his first job after his residency. The pilot profession needs a similar entity to help regulate this and keep it in check. Without an entity like that the race to the bottom will continue. All in all find a flying job you can live with make sure it doesn't negatively impact you first and foremost, and also the profession you are about to embark on. Good luck to you and if you ever need any advice or help feel free to drop me a line.

Respectfully

 

[Humphry]

You know guys, I'd rather make a little money flying for Mesa than no money sitting on my butt. At least you're working towards something better in the future. Mesa for sure is not an end of career goal, but neither is the regional all you Mesa bashers are flying for now. You really need to give these Mesa pilots a break. We're all in this together doing something we all love. We all need to make sacrafices till things open up again. Good luck to everyone!

 

[Icywings2]

Thank you all for your input. This thread has turned out to be quite informative. Please continue to add to it. Remember for all of us POWER is knowledge. We should have a thread like this for each regional out there. If you all want to do that….GREAT. Just PLEEEEEAASSSSEEEE keep it constructive without any flaming. It is not anything personal. We are all just pilots wanting the best for ourselves and families. Hopefully our success doesn't come at the expense of someone else.

jrcpilot- Thank you so much for spelling out the answer I was looking for. I really appreciate you taking so much time to type all of that information.

Humphry - I agree with you. It is a stepping stone for EVERY single one of us. However, if I get lucky and have the choice between two airlines, I would love to know the negative and positive info on both. No matter where I go (assuming I am lucky enough to be able to go anywhere) I won't ever flame anyone of us. We ARE all in this thing together and I agree with jrcpilot that we do have to hold a level of standard or the bottom could fall out in the long run. Then again, flying vs. sitting on my butt reading this board for information all day would be great regardless of who I am flying for.

 

[wscrj]

Finally...

JR, thank you for a refreshing and long overdue change of tone on these threads. Now if we can just make it last...

 

[mckpickle]

You know guys, I'd rather make a little money flying for Mesa than no money sitting on my butt. At least you're working towards something better in the future. Mesa for sure is not an end of career goal, but neither is the regional all you Mesa bashers are flying for now. You really need to give these Mesa pilots a break. We're all in this together doing something we all love. We all need to make sacrafices till things open up again. Good luck to everyone!

Everyone should read this. Memorize it. And when we sit here b1tching about why our lives suck and we don't make squat we can thank attitudes like this.


SHUT UP A$$HOLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Skyward]

Originally posted by Humphry

You know guys, I'd rather make a little money flying for Mesa than no money sitting on my butt. At least you're working towards something better in the future. Mesa for sure is not an end of career goal, but neither is the regional all you Mesa bashers are flying for now. You really need to give these Mesa pilots a break. We're all in this together doing something we all love. We all need to make sacrafices till things open up again. Good luck to everyone!

Regionals are more of a career destination now than ever before, and this trend will continue. You are obviously completely ignorant in regards to the airline industry. Contracts like the one Mesa signed hurt us all, you included. Too bad you can’t see that. Why don’t you bring down wages in some other industry, my paycheck is low enough already.

 

[captjim]

You know guys, I'd rather make a little money flying for Mesa than no money sitting on my butt. At least you're working towards something better in the future.

As long as pilots think this way, the profession will be less and less desirable and lucrative. This is attitude is to bad. If you just want to fly, rent a plane, but don't undermine the improvements professional pilots have made to their contracts over the years.

 

[captjim]

Humphry - I agree with you. It is a stepping stone for EVERY single one of us. However, if I get lucky and have the choice between two airlines, I would love to know the negative and positive info on both. No matter where I go (assuming I am lucky enough to be able to go anywhere) I won't ever flame anyone of us. We ARE all in this thing together and I agree with jrcpilot that we do have to hold a level of standard or the bottom could fall out in the long run. Then again, flying vs. sitting on my butt reading this board for information all day would be great regardless of who I am flying for.

Stepping stone, not anymore. Go tell that to a great many Comair, Eagle and ACA pilots, they will quickly set you straight. This is a profession, our profession to leave intact. There are pilots who are collectivly lowing the bar that Comair and ACA raised to new heights not so long ago.

Please don't buy into the belief that you'll spend 2 or 3 years at a regional and go to a major. It doesn't work like that anymore. If you haven't noticed the majority of the airline growth is in the small jet arena. You are going to spend a little more time flying that shinny new jet than you anticipated. Just ask how many years the average small jet captain has been around.

No just being happy to fly isn't enough. Where ever you get hired is where you'll be for sometime. Think about it.

 

[Humphry]

Well I guess every industry has their immature babies who think they deserve more that they are offered.

MCKPICLE, you should keep to yourself and play with your
MR. Pickle more, you'd be more constructive. By the way, you telling me to shut up and calling me an a$$hole shows what class you have. Another thing, tell your mom I had a great time with her last night and I'll call her soon.

SKYWARD, maybe you'd be happier at asking "Would you like that supersized? What kind of drink?" That's what you should be doing instead I guess?

CAPTJIM, we all chose this profession. It's a shame what has happened to it. I would love nothing more than to make ALOT of money flying an airplane, however, it ain't gonna happen right now, so lets be happy with what we have.

 

[Skyward]

Spoken like a true private pilot! Doesn't know sh!t.

 

[Humphry]

SKYWARD, Yes I'd like that supersized, and oh yes, I'll have a Sprite!

 

[captjim]

CAPTJIM, we all chose this profession. It's a shame what has happened to it. I would love nothing more than to make ALOT of money flying an airplane, however, it ain't gonna happen right now, so lets be happy with what we have.

You are correct Humphry, it is the profession that we all picked. I picked it becouse it was most of all fun for me. I can still remember high school when my passion for flying began. It was the start of the addiction! I can also remember when I started at my company at $13 and change. That is something that I don't want any other aviator to go through. It's my duty to all of the younger aviatiors and myself to inprove this profession. It is all of our duties to know the past and not go back.

We love what we do, but don't let that get in the way of being good stewards to this elite vocation.

 

[urflyingme?!]

43 hrs to solo?

 

[Otto Coarsen]

He keeps changing it.... I doubt it holds any truth..

 

[urflyingme?!]

i got my pvt in less than that....

 

[jrcpilot]

I never have a problem adding to good dialogue on the threads. There are many I will not respond to or get involved with because of the lack of respect and knowledge many show.

1st and formost we need to respect each other as pilots. I am not in here to get into pissing matches. Like Icywings2 I am here to gather information. Good information not a bunch of bs. I am not going to comment on some of the stupid replies on here cause thats just adding fuel to the fire. I will say that Captjim, Skyward, and wscrj had some very good comments.

The guys that are already at Mesa will hopefully think twice the next time their contract is up for ammendment. But there is no need to bash those guys. They are very much a collective part of who we are. Skyward makes a good point. A regional job is not a stepping stone anymore.

Trust me I just left Delta Air Lines for Express Jet. It ain't happening like before. Airlines like Delta and United and American have a ways to go before hiring in the manner we got accustomed to will return. Delta still has 1500 pilots on furlough. The airline is contracting, and we currently have more pilots than we need to fly the line. Yes some fleets are hurting but thats a training bottleneck and not a overall headcount issue.

Luckily Continental is bringing back all their furloughs and is finally making money. Thats good news. But the days of majors hiring 30 to 60 a month indefinitely will not happen for a while. That means for some of us the regional IS the airline career. It's important to raise the bar to a respectable level but the trick is to not kill the golden goose. The Major airlines just about did with contracts like United and Delta's. I am all for us making good money but not salaries that can't be supported. That's career suicide.

I also don't like unions caving in to the company banter. American did with their concessions. United Pilots did not have much choice and neither did USAirways pilots. Now everyone wants Delta pilots to hold the line. To a certain degree they need to. But understand that the other unions that did not "hold their lines" are now putting undue pressure on the Delta pilots to hold the line which is unrealistic now because of the concessions the other unions gave. There is that viscious cycle I talked about earlier. We are our own worst enemies sometimes. I hope the dialogue will continue to improve on some of these threads. Thanks guys.

 

[captjim]

BTW, my roomate whom is an 4 year FO has been trying to throw my computer out of the window for about an hour after reading this thread! For everyone that thinks that a "regional" job is a stepping stone, get out of the 90"s!

 

[Propblast]

Mesa is a bottom-of-the-barrel organization. Jonathan Ornstein is a ruthless, heartless slimeball who whipsaws employee groups at any chance. He treats his employees and their livelyhood with little or no respect. In fact, the pilots there are up in arms now because of some issues with vacation. I will not say bad things about the guys/gals that are there. Those I've spoken with were desperate for a job, readily admit they made a mistake going there and wish they could go back and do things differently.

Take a look at the Yahoo message board: mesa airlines forum or www.mesalounge.com. Ask one of the people there about CCAir or Freedom Air. If you remember the crash of the Air Midwest 1900 down in CLT; that crash was caused by improperly rigged elevator cables. JO decided to outsource maintenance to a vendor that had never worked on 1900s (this info is in the news today as the NTSB is expected to issue their final report, take a look at: http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/040225/crash_airmidwest_1.html ). While that is no excuse for the job being done improperly and there is some question about how clear the instructions were - it seems that the aircraft were flying fine before JO decided to farm out his employees jobs.

Do you want to work for that kind of guy? I know you may be eager to "move on" but I would suggest waiting it out for CoEx or one of the other regionals that will give you a little higher QOL because you are going to be there for a while.

Propblast

 

[Cows Go Moo]

Those I've spoken with were desperate for a job, readily admit they made a mistake going there and wish they could go back and do things differently.

It may be true that the ones you've talked with feel this way, but it is not the majority feeling of the pilot group by any means. Most of the people I know here are fairly upbeat about things and keep the goings-on here in perspective. I know that if I could talk to the pre-Mesa me in 1998, I'd tell him, "Apply, get hired, have fun, make friends." I wouldn't have done a single thing differently.

 

[nimtz]

You know guys, I'd rather make a little money flying for Mesa than no money sitting on my butt. At least you're working towards something better in the future. Mesa for sure is not an end of career goal, but neither is the regional all you Mesa bashers are flying for now. You really need to give these Mesa pilots a break. We're all in this together doing something we all love. We all need to make sacrafices till things open up again. Good luck to everyone!

Agreed with all previous blasters of this tool! You are not a professional pilot and if you spent a year as a regional pilot you would know exactly where guys like McPickle are coming from. Go satisfy your flying hard-ons with Microsoft Flight Simulator! Good luck with that!

 

[cl65200]

"You are not a professional pilot and if you spent a year as a regional pilot you would know exactly where guys like McPickle are coming from. "




Well...McPickle admitted to PFT back in the late 90s to get his current job.......

 

[CRJ Driver]

There so professional, you can quickly ID a mesa guy in the terminal, look for the dork in the "ski jacket" How professional.