OK, soap box time!

[avbug]

I always thought a nutter was a candy bar. Or the big peanut-guy who fronts for Plantars. Or an attack dog that, well...bites.

Can't we all just get along?

 

[pilot773]

My my my. What a little party going on in here.
Being that I seem to be one of the few, if only, Muslim pilots who spend time in this forum I feel a need to defend my religion.
And before you get all bitchy and angry I said defend my religion, not defend those idiots who flew the jets into the buildings.
-
First off, Islam is NOT against other religions...hard as it may be for you people to believe. Conversion is NOT done at the point of a sword. Here's some history for you who have a hard time with this idea. Mohammed was exiled from Mecca when he first started to spread the religion. At the time it was an area full of idolatry and polytheists. He was forced to a city named Medina for several years. He returned to Mecca years later and conquered the city along with an army of Muslims. When the city was conquered, he gave orders that no one was to be forced to convert. Those who did so did so willingly, and those who did not were allowed to live peacefully there or leave, as they chose. When the Muslim armies captured the rest of Arabia and North Africa this same philosophy was followed. No one was ever forced at the point of a sword, not then and not now. Now before you slam Islam on this, Christians have followed similar paths in the past. Anyone ever hear of the Spanish Inquisition? Did you know that in Spain - when it was under Muslim rule - there was a thriving Jewish minority that lived side by side with Muslims?
OK, I'm sure you don't want to debate the finer point of history that you could care less about. Lets more on to more recent times.
-
Yes, there is no Pope in Islam. So? The meaning of religion, orany other belief, comes from how you interpret what is given to you. It is up to the individual to believe as they see fit and not have some old guy in a pointy hat tell you how you should believe and not believe. How many non-Catholics respect the Pope's every wish?
-

FlyingWeasel, you asked three very good questions. Here are some answers:
1. The same way that Charlemagne captured much of Europe under the guise of spreading Christianity. The same way the Spanish took over the New World under the guise of converting the "savages". Conquest has always been a way to spread religion in many parts of the world.
2. There is no Pope or "leader" of the religion so who will you listen to apologize? Tell you what...if it makes you feel better I'll go ahead and do it. On behalf of all Muslim living and dead I apologize for the things you listed and those you haven't listed.
3. I like how you didn't quote anything from the Bible or Torah about warfare. Take a gander at it and let me know what you find.
-
The world is not at war against Islam. The US is at war against terrorists. Big difference there. During WW2 the world wasn't at war against Germans...they were at war against Nazis.
-
pilot141...go check your facts. I don't know where you get your ideas from but they are sad and xenophobic. I hope your politics don't color your judgement when you have a Muslim passenger.
-
prodigal, Muslims are not still pissed about the Crusades. The average Muslim could care less or probably doesn't even know what a Crusade is. It is only the "enlightened" idiots who want to stir up trouble who care, just as some enlightened people of other religions bring up centuries old BS for whatever reason.
-
So whats the point? Simple: Everyone doesn't hate Christians just because of idiots like David Koresh or Tim McVeigh. They are not representative of the religion even though there may be those that support them. They are a bunch of friggin morons. Not all Muslims are like Mohammed Atta and his band of idiots. Don't generalize and stereotype all of us because of them. Personally, as a Muslim and an American, I hope all the bastards rot in hell.
-
Peace
Shalom
Salaam.

 

[Snakum]

"...Everyone doesn't hate Christians just because of idiots like David Koresh or Tim McVeigh....

Uhhh .... yeah ... I do.

Well, not just because of that ... go here to see why I am sometimes so hard on Christianity ....

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html

This isn't a parody site. This is a real website form a real group, the ones who 'picketed' Matthew Sheppard's funeral.

Minh

 

[Timebuilder]

Pilot 773-
First, since you are a Muslim, I'll ask you. Are you able to refute the claim that the terrorists are following a mandate from the quoran to kill the infidels, i.e.: us? Why are our so-called friends, the Saudis, raising money to support the families of suicide bombers?

Second, don't make the error of confusing Catholicism with Christanity. It's a common mistake, but a big one. Catholicism began when Constantine had a vision, and he decided to meld together the practices and doctrine taught by the apostles and their followers with the then-prevalent practices of pagan idol worshipers and polytheists. For those who trust the Bible as God's word, Catholics are no more Christian than Jews are.

The inquisition was clearly the work of evil masquerading as the work of God. Isn't that consistent with our first account of evil in the Bible? The evil one is a deceiver.

I hope this clears up that area for you. Muslims who think that this jihad business is a bunch of cr*p need to stand up and let their voices be heard. Speak up!

Snakum
Nowhere in the Bible are Christians instructed to take any kind of sanctions against homosexuals. There is no such scripture. It DOES tell the believer (and the non believer, since the text speaks to ALL mankind) that he must not lie down with a man as if he were a woman, which clearly designates the BEHAVIOR as being abhorrent to God. The logic applies equally to women lying down with women. The Bible makes quite clear right in the ten commandments that we 'shall not commit murder' (murder is from the original texts, and "kill" is a mis-translation). Murdering a homosexual is just as wrong as murdering anyone else.

 

[pilot773]

I forgot about Matt Shephard. I'm sure he appreciated all the peace-loving Christians in Wyoming. I actually sat next to a nurse once who was from Laramie. She was in the hospital working on him when he was brought in. Chilling stories from that lady.
-
Now to your questions Timebuilder. Yes, I can refute that claim. There is no MANDATE as you put it. Those idiots chose to believe this way for whatever stupid reason. As I said before, its all about interpretation. Their interpretation happened to be murderous. Most of us normal Muslims interpret that "mandate" as meaning to stamp out evil where you see it. Islam does not allow murder of innocents at all. Never has, never will.
Second, when did the Saudis raise money for the families of the bombers? I recall a telethon a few months back that was held there but that money was to go to Palestinians and not Saudis. Maybe I missed something
I know perfectly well that there are several denominations in Christianity - Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians/Anglicans, Church of Christ, etc etc. Do you know how many denominations there are in Islam? A Catholic may not support your assertion that they are no more Christians than Jews are. Are you Protestant?
I do agree with what you say about Muslims who disagree about this "jihad business" need to speak up. Unfortunately, as we learned during the Vietnam war, the silent majority is often not heard above the very vocal minority.
-
Hey, in case more people respond I won't be able to get to it today...about time to leave work and I won't have access until tomorrow.
Happy Landings!

 

[Timebuilder]

Exactly, 773. The Saudis raised money for Palestinian terrorists. These Saudis are Muslims...peace loving Muslims who support terrorist suicide bombers. I'm confused, too.

You're right about denominations. I don't have one, personally. I can tell you this: most people who have been deceived aren't aware of it.

Since you disagree with the terroist interpretation of "jihad", I recommend that you and others who share your viewpoint call in to as many talk shows as possible, write letters to the editor, contact TV stations, etc.

Make your voice heard.

 

[avbug]

Won't it be funny to leave this world one day, only to learn that we all worship the same source, same God, same person...from different persepctives and cultures? Won't we feel rather silly, then?

A wise individual once remarked that global religion is much like a volcano on a dark night. Lava and burning materials burst forth in the dark, landing on the slope of the volcano in isolated clumps. These hot spots burn brightly, all from the same source, but all isolated. Compared to religion, each one thinks it is the only one, the only source of correctness. In fact, each came from the same place, the same roots.

Enough of the my-dad-can-beat-up-your-dad stuff. We don't need to stamp out anybody. Extremists are by nature extreme. These need to be controlled. Not by virtue of their religion or even their beliefs, but by virtue of their acts. Not everyone who is of any given sect, tenet, persuasion, etc, should be lumped together.

The major religions of the world preach peace, and harmony. Individual people pervert these teachings, and cloud them with politics and economics. However, don't confuse teachings about love, peace, harmony, and personal development with acts of war. These are separate things. If a catholic offends you, take it up with the man, not the church. If a mormon offends you, deal with him as a man, not his church. If a muslim offends you, do likewise.

For the Christian crowd that would attack the muslim world, lets' not forget that Christ taught a parable about a good samaritan. Samaritans were a hated people, and this is why He used the example of a samaritan. Of all the people who could have been neighbor to the assault victim, it was the most despised and hated of all, a Samaritan. The intent of the parable was clear; brotherhood and the requirement to be neighbor to all isn't bound by religion or border or ethnicity. It extends to everyone of every persuasion and belief. The Samaritan demonstrated true Christlike attributes; these can be found in all people, all cultures.

We are all from the same place. Don't ever forget that.

Bad people exist. They always have, they always will. Injustices occur. That's life. Deal with each on it's own merit, but leave generalities by the wayside, where they belong.

 

[TheFlyingWeasel]

Pilot773,

This is an emotional subject for all concerned, I thank you for speaking your mind and answering those questions we have all tossed out on this forum.

I guess, in the end you and I will have to agree to disagree, it would be very hard, near impossible for me to change my views upon the subject and I do not expect to convert yours nor do I want to.

Weasel

 

[Timebuilder]

What you say WOULD be funny Avbug. And, that's an interesting analogy about the lava. I should point out, though, that the Bible doesn't teach that kind of ecumenicalism (equality of religious viewpoints) about God.

Hopefully, my post explained some major differences which never get an airing in the press. The sad truth is that there are many thousands of Muslims who fall into the "extremist" category. They have already pledged their willingness to destroy us, and demonstrated their ability to do so.

We can take action. Or, we can take another look at each other's shoes.

 

[bart]

Pilot 773:

Since you have offered to explain many of the fallacies about your religion/political system, perhaps you may explain some of the facts as well.

Please explain to me how about the time that Mohammed was exiled from Mecca that his writings and teachings dramatically changed ie from turn the other to cheek to slay the infidels and you will get virgins in paradise. Seems to me that about the same time Mohammed began seeking political power, his teachings changed.

I will agree there were no forced conversions... If you remained with your MONOTHEISTIC religion, you were spared and forced to pay taxes to support the Arab Empire, if you converted, no taxes. Were you an animist or an idolator, death was good enough because rather than being misguided, you did not believe in God - an infidel.

The facts of the history of your religion/political system are undeniable. What percentage of wars that are in progress on this planet right now involve Muslims? The better part of 4 out of 5, interesting in that Muslims make up 1 out of 5 on this planet. In my opinion, it is a great religion up to the time of the conquering of Mecca, where it took a turn and became a vehicle for acquiring political power. There are many clerics who wish to use your religion for political purposes: control of populaces. Why have you allowed this to happen?

Lastly, the subjugation of women in your religion is nothing short of barbaric. They are relegated to near slave status in all but the most modern of Islamic countries. Explain how this is part of Allah's plan... Seems it was part of man's plan as espoused by Mohammed.