Ok is my instructor messing with me?

[bobbysamd]

Examiner minutiae/dummy-stumping

The FAA has told me to focus on understanding of essential features of system design and how various systems interrelate and demonstrate such knowledge by interpreting cockpit indications and describing the condition of aircraft systems from these indications. I do this not only because the FAA has told me to but also because this will allow the instructors to focus on building a safe pilot. I encourage people to dive deep into systems and maintenance manuals but not at the expense of basic practical flying and cockpit trouble shooting. Let us face it the workload is very high when preparing for a checkride. We should allow students to focus on the basics and most important first that is to become a pilot - not an engineer. By the way – last year an FAA inspector told me that he stopped a designee because he was asking too many non relevant in-depth technical questions.

. . . . such as (1) number of rivets on a 172; (2) number of "fuel pumps" on a Seminole; (3) number of counterweights in a Seminole's propeller(s), etc., ad nauseum.

 

[dkelly]

Another Suggestion

Thank you, Midlife! I wasn't going to respond to this asinine line until you came up with an actual teaching answer to this student. You're good!



The student/instructor relationship is an interacting relationship. Both parties are active. Activly seeking information. Both giving and recieving. The student must learn to seek the knowledge. Even when the instructor is asking "way-far-out-unrealistic" questions, the good student will seek the knowledge. There is more to learn than hard-matter-of-fact-facts. Ideas are worthy of consideration.

Although this may be a stupid question, it is possible that the instructor is trying to see if the student is confident in his answers.

 

[User546]

. . . (2) number of "fuel pumps" on a Seminole...

I had an examiner get me on this one during my Initial Multi checkride.

I thought he was giving me a hard time until I opened up to POH and sure enough - right there it was on the schematic I had looked over many times!

And for all you aspiring Seminole drivers... 4 fuel pumps is NOT the correct answer!

 

[bobbysamd]

Seminole fuel pumps

And for all you aspiring Seminole drivers... 4 fuel pumps is NOT the correct answer!

Alright. So what is the correct answer?

Two engine-driven pumps + two electric pumps + two throttle pumps + two primers (primers are a form of pump, or, once again, define "pump") = eight pumps.

I haven't looked at a Seminole fuel schematic in twelve years. The question was fair because it was based on a schematic found readily in the POH. Hopefully, your examiner still passed you.

 

[nosehair]

Although this may be a stupid question, it is possible that the instructor is trying to see if the student is confident in his answers.

Ah! That is an example of what I am talking about. I have noticed that most of the respondents in this thread have taken the line of what an Examiner should ask on a checkride, and there should NOT be ambiguous, tricky, toss-up questions on a Test.

But the Instructor...that's different. Just checking confidence, knowing, certainty, getting a student to become decisive, making his/her own decisions, these are things Instructors have to do to create a learning environment.

Teaching flying involves more than the transfer of tecnical knowledge and skill.
Self-Confidence is a Major factor in a student's ability to learn and progress.

 

[User546]

Alright. So what is the correct answer?

The answer is 5. You have the two engine-driven fuel pumps, two electric fuel pumps, and one combustion heater fuel pump.

And no the examiner didn't fail me on it - he just used it as a good lesson that stuck well with me from that point on.

 

[bobbysamd]

Seminole fuel pumps

A favorite question was the number of fuel pumps in a Seminole. Define "fuel pump." Most people would consider fuel pumps to be the electrically-driven pumps and the engine-driven pumps because these were gizmos that actually moved fluid from tank to engine so the answer is four, two for each engine. However, the answer varied from stage check pilot to stage check pilot, because some believed the throttle pumps were fuel pumps, while others regarded the carburetor pumps as fuel pumps. (I even heard fuel injectors falling under the definition of fuel pump because they "pump" gas into the combustion chambers.) I do not recall of any agreed-upon answer or definition of fuel pump for the Seminole . . . .

(emphasis added)

I forget the Janitrol fuel pump earlier and intended to include it in my answer above.

I would agree with User997's answer because it comports with the generally-accepted definition of "fuel pump." But tons of ERAU-Prescott students in the late eighties-early nineties who had access to shop manuals along with the POH asserted the answer I gave above and with the blessings of A&Ps and the local examiners.

See what I mean about asinine?

 

[User546]

Now a bonus question for all you Seminole drivers - past, present, and future....

(And NO opening your POH's!)

What's the calculated rate of fuel consumption, per hour, of the Janitrol heater when it's in use?

 

[minitour]

2?...

 

[User546]

Nope, lower then that.

 

[minitour]

.7???

(yep...just picking random numbers...have no clue)

 

[User546]

Getting warmer, but still lower...

 

[HMR]

What's the calculated rate of fuel consumption, per hour, of the Janitrol heater when it's in use?

I've never seen a JaniBomb heater that worked properly for an hour straight. However, my rusty MEI brain is telling me 2/3 gallon per hour.

 

[User546]

I've never seen a JaniBomb heater that worked properly for an hour straight. However, my rusty MEI brain is telling me 2/3 gallon per hour.

Haha, isn't that the truth!

Nope... 2/3 gall an hour is not correct! So far Mini has gotten the closest.

 

[nosehair]

OK! "one half gallon per hour", yes, I looked in the POH!!!

That would be a good question from an Instructor, to get the student reading the book, and to enlighten him that the heater uses fuel, but it would not be a good exam question. As a matter of fact, trivia like that has no place on an exam. Questions should address the Application or Correlation level.

 

[User546]

Good job nosehair, but I'm sure that doesn't suprise you that your right!

I agree completely with what you said!

 

[bobbysamd]

Seminole Janitrol fuel consumption

OK! "one half gallon per hour", yes, I looked in the POH!!!

That would be a good question from an Instructor, to get the student reading the book, and to enlighten him that the heater uses fuel, but it would not be a good exam question. As a matter of fact, trivia like that has no place on an exam. Questions should address the Application or Correlation level.

. . . . though that question was standard on ERAU stage checks and probably at FSI, too.

 

[A Squared]

Uhhh, what's wrong with expecting a candidate to know about heater fuel? seem pretty basic part of fuel planning to me. Even if it's too small to make a difference, it's reasonable to expect somone to know about it and know that it's neglibible. I would say that somone who was ignorant of the fact that the heater uses gasoline and hadn't considered how much it uses, hadn't done his fuel planning adequately..but maybe that's because I fly in northern climate where heaters are run year round.

 

[HMR]

. . . . though that question was standard on ERAU stage checks and probably at FSI, too.

Bobby, weren't you flying BE76's when you were instructing? I know the Duchess heater burned 2/3Gallon per hour.

 

[JAFI]

I agree with A-squared here. The heater is using engine fuel and can be part of the fuel calculation, it is fair game for the exam. I would go further if there are more than one manufacturer of a heater, I will ask which heater the aircraft has and only ask those questions. If an operator (135/121/125 only) has more than one brand of a system, I will ask about the others also for a PC.

Some said you must have a "working" knowledge. I agree that is the key. I have suggested to schools to have a basic knowledge for a course/type ride and save all the wiz bang other stuff for additional/recurrent training. The student does not need to know everything for the course/type ride but enough to operate the aircraft.

Many Examiners/Inspectors have a Instructor back ground, and try to expand the students knowledge during an exam. I like to remind them that an exam is two things. It is first to see if the student has obtained enough knowledge/ability to operate the aircraft safely (and) the exam is also a quality control check of the training system. Too many failures could mean the system needs review. If you ask questions outside of the training system, then you slew the data in checking the system. If you put too much information into the system (off the wall questions) then you can slew the data on the validity of the course. I have seen long time schools add every question a examiner/inspector has ever asked to the "normal" questions and the list of information has become unmanageable. My standard is if the information for a question is not in the course material, it is an unfair question. I will qualify the last statement on one point. I ask system questions to see if the student understands HOW the system works, not just how much fluid/fuel/air or what ever is in the system. An example would be "tell me the different ways you can lower the landing gear" or "the normal way to shut the engine down did not work today, how else can you shut down the engine?" All normal placards/check lists/QRH or what ever is handy to the pilot (except the course book) can be used to answer the question.

Just my thoughts....

JAFI