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Ok is my instructor messing with me?
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Bobby, part of me agrees with you and part does not. If the intent of the question is a "stump the dummy" question, then I agree, it is asinine. If the question is to pass on knowledge or to expand the students mind or thinking ability, then I say it is an academic benefit. If the intent of the question is to get the students nose into the POH, then it is a benefit. The C-172 POH is tiny compared to any aircraft that requires a type rating. If you can get the student into the simpler systems then IMHO, the complex systems will come easier.
There were mechanical lifters in older engines, now they are mostly hydraulic, not part of the hydraulic system but moved by hydraulic action. I think if that distinction were made it would be a valid question.
JAFI
There were mechanical lifters in older engines, now they are mostly hydraulic, not part of the hydraulic system but moved by hydraulic action. I think if that distinction were made it would be a valid question.
JAFI
bobbysamd
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Stump the dummy
That's essentially where I'm coming from. I don't regard hydraulic lifters as being a "hydraulic system." A fair question might be to ask how the lifters of the airplane engine are operated.
I dealt with a lot of this nonsense at ERAU. There were (inbred) ERAU stage check pilots who asked these questions of students, who (1) had no access to the shop manuals or wherever this "information" was found and (2) did not have the question defined sufficiently to answer the question.
A favorite question was the number of fuel pumps in a Seminole. Define "fuel pump." Most people would consider fuel pumps to be the electrically-driven pumps and the engine-driven pumps because these were gizmos that actually moved fluid from tank to engine so the answer is four, two for each engine. However, the answer varied from stage check pilot to stage check pilot, because some believed the throttle pumps were fuel pumps, while others regarded the carburetor pumps as fuel pumps. (I even heard fuel injectors falling under the definition of fuel pump because they "pump" gas into the combustion chambers.) I do not recall of any agreed-upon answer or definition of fuel pump for the Seminole. Answer the question wrong and a student would be downgraded on his/her stage check, so it was critical to provide the "correct" "answer." Riddlers would stress over the answer. For these reasons, I regard many of these questions as asinine.
(emphasis added)JAFI said:
That's essentially where I'm coming from. I don't regard hydraulic lifters as being a "hydraulic system." A fair question might be to ask how the lifters of the airplane engine are operated.
I dealt with a lot of this nonsense at ERAU. There were (inbred) ERAU stage check pilots who asked these questions of students, who (1) had no access to the shop manuals or wherever this "information" was found and (2) did not have the question defined sufficiently to answer the question.
A favorite question was the number of fuel pumps in a Seminole. Define "fuel pump." Most people would consider fuel pumps to be the electrically-driven pumps and the engine-driven pumps because these were gizmos that actually moved fluid from tank to engine so the answer is four, two for each engine. However, the answer varied from stage check pilot to stage check pilot, because some believed the throttle pumps were fuel pumps, while others regarded the carburetor pumps as fuel pumps. (I even heard fuel injectors falling under the definition of fuel pump because they "pump" gas into the combustion chambers.) I do not recall of any agreed-upon answer or definition of fuel pump for the Seminole. Answer the question wrong and a student would be downgraded on his/her stage check, so it was critical to provide the "correct" "answer." Riddlers would stress over the answer. For these reasons, I regard many of these questions as asinine.
Last edited:
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
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Upon reflection, I would say that the original question has value in this way:
It can generate "outside the box" thinking. It is an interesting brain teaser more than it is a valid question for evaluation of knowledge. Learning to think outside the box is a good skill to have in aviation, right?
If this question was aked on an oral, then it is a stupid question.
The measure of a question is whether or not the information can be used to enhance safety or efficiency.
For example, the gear pump in some aircraft is bi-directional (for the new folks, that means it spins one way for gear up, the other for gear down).
Why does this matter? Because once you move the gear handle and the pump begins operating, you should not change your mind and move the gear handle again until the gear cycle is complete (it can be hard on the pump).
So, it does not matter much that the pump is bi-directional, other than it helps you understand why once the gear handle is moved, the cycle must be allowed to finish.
Number of rivets? You are a total TOOL if you know this kind of crap. (unless you work at a regional where the toolish check airman with major insecurity issues asks this sort of thing).
It can generate "outside the box" thinking. It is an interesting brain teaser more than it is a valid question for evaluation of knowledge. Learning to think outside the box is a good skill to have in aviation, right?
If this question was aked on an oral, then it is a stupid question.
The measure of a question is whether or not the information can be used to enhance safety or efficiency.
For example, the gear pump in some aircraft is bi-directional (for the new folks, that means it spins one way for gear up, the other for gear down).
Why does this matter? Because once you move the gear handle and the pump begins operating, you should not change your mind and move the gear handle again until the gear cycle is complete (it can be hard on the pump).
So, it does not matter much that the pump is bi-directional, other than it helps you understand why once the gear handle is moved, the cycle must be allowed to finish.
Number of rivets? You are a total TOOL if you know this kind of crap. (unless you work at a regional where the toolish check airman with major insecurity issues asks this sort of thing).
Lead Sled
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Lead Sled said:
Lead, Agreed. I think I still go back to intent. Is the question to improve, expand, or help the student learn or for the asker to demonstrate their "superior" knowledge. There are "little" people in positions of authority. My way of dealing with such a person to to think that I only have to deal with them a short time, they on the other hand, have to put up with themselves for a lifetime..... Also turnabout is fair play.
Bobby, we could start a thread of the most stupid aviation questions we have ever heard. I bet we could go on for days. If nothing else it will amuse the members of the board.
Let me start.
"What is the only part of this airplane you can eat?" I was asked this and almost bitch slapped the asker. His answer - "The bean" it is what he called the ball in the turn and slip indicator. It was such a stupid question I got up and left the table.
JAFI
A Squared
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bobbysamd said:
Ummm, yeah, if you're taking it seriously. I would have hoped that the more perceptive would have noticed I wasn't being particularly serious about it. As you don't seem to be exhibiting any visible signs of a sense of humor, I'll explain: I wasn't being serious, I was joining in the spirit of silly technical questions. No, I don't think that knowing the lifters are hydraulic is important for flying an airplane.
However, you might notice that in regards the first question that started the thread, Jedi Nein pointed out a pretty good reason why understanding about the resevoir tank might be useful.
On the subject of fuel pumps, since you mentioned it I thought I'd ask; the throttle pump differs from the "carburetor pump" how?
bobbysamd said:
That would be the position of somone who really doesn't understand the fuel system even slightly. The fuel injectors depend on pressure from the fuel pumps. They are no more pumps than the nozzle on your garden hose is a pump. Also, they don't deliver gas into the combustion chambers, they deliver it into the induction system, close to the intake valve. Sounds like your friends at riddle are talking out thier a$$es, in addition to being overly fond of minutiae
I got asked a silly technical question about an aircraft's fuel system on a not-so-recent checkride. I happened to know the answer because I'd worked on that particular system in a similar aircraft the previous weekend and had tried to use the checkride aircraft to compare. I asked the examiner if he was asking that question to me as a pilot or as a mechanic.
He got a little huffy, then said as a pilot.
I told him I had no friggin' idea, but my mechanic could find out.
He sat up, then said as a mechanic.
I asked exactly which mod to that system were we discussing. There are different versions for each year the aircraft was manufactured, and several after-market modifications. The aircraft I brought to the test was completely different than the one I'd worked on.
He grimaced, then asked a non-systems question.
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
He got a little huffy, then said as a pilot.
I told him I had no friggin' idea, but my mechanic could find out.
He sat up, then said as a mechanic.
I asked exactly which mod to that system were we discussing. There are different versions for each year the aircraft was manufactured, and several after-market modifications. The aircraft I brought to the test was completely different than the one I'd worked on.
He grimaced, then asked a non-systems question.
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
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Jedi Nein it sounds like you handeled this very well! I like to hear stories like that. It appears that your designee did not run the checkride as intended by the FAA. I start checkrides by briefing the candidate something like this:
“We will keep an informal working atmosphere to keep you relaxed so we can bring out your best performance. Our goal is to verify that you have enough practical knowledge to safely and competently exercise the privileges of the certificate. I will avoid trick questions. My questions and your answers should be short, clear, specific and easy to understand. Ask for clarification, before answering, if you are unsure of the meaning of a question.
You are not expected to give 100% correct answers to all my questions. I am looking for a broad practical understanding rather than highly detailed knowledge of component engineering design and construction.
You are expected to know memory items and limitations not marked in the cockpit. You may look at instrument markings, cockpit placards, non-memory checklists and manuals that are required to be in the cockpit. What I want to see is that you can make a diagnosis from cockpit indications and describe the situation based on this information”
The FAA has told me to focus on understanding of essential features of system design and how various systems interrelate and demonstrate such knowledge by interpreting cockpit indications and describing the condition of aircraft systems from these indications. I do this not only because the FAA has told me to but also because this will allow the instructors to focus on building a safe pilot. I encourage people to dive deep into systems and maintenance manuals but not at the expense of basic practical flying and cockpit trouble shooting. Let us face it the workload is very high when preparing for a checkride. We should allow students to focus on the basics and most important first that is to become a pilot - not an engineer. By the way – last year an FAA inspector told me that he stopped a designee because he was asking too many non relevant in-depth technical questions.
“We will keep an informal working atmosphere to keep you relaxed so we can bring out your best performance. Our goal is to verify that you have enough practical knowledge to safely and competently exercise the privileges of the certificate. I will avoid trick questions. My questions and your answers should be short, clear, specific and easy to understand. Ask for clarification, before answering, if you are unsure of the meaning of a question.
You are not expected to give 100% correct answers to all my questions. I am looking for a broad practical understanding rather than highly detailed knowledge of component engineering design and construction.
You are expected to know memory items and limitations not marked in the cockpit. You may look at instrument markings, cockpit placards, non-memory checklists and manuals that are required to be in the cockpit. What I want to see is that you can make a diagnosis from cockpit indications and describe the situation based on this information”
The FAA has told me to focus on understanding of essential features of system design and how various systems interrelate and demonstrate such knowledge by interpreting cockpit indications and describing the condition of aircraft systems from these indications. I do this not only because the FAA has told me to but also because this will allow the instructors to focus on building a safe pilot. I encourage people to dive deep into systems and maintenance manuals but not at the expense of basic practical flying and cockpit trouble shooting. Let us face it the workload is very high when preparing for a checkride. We should allow students to focus on the basics and most important first that is to become a pilot - not an engineer. By the way – last year an FAA inspector told me that he stopped a designee because he was asking too many non relevant in-depth technical questions.
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