Oh no another PFT thread

[duksrule]

OK here is a new spin (maybe, I didn't do a search) on a PFT thread. I know most on here claim it is a plaque and you will never get hired.

My question is, who here has PFTed and is flying right now for a paycheck? I am not asking for a PFT debate. You can always say " I have a friend who did it and got a job" if you don't want to be beaten up by the anti-PFT folks.

Thanks

 

[pilotyip]

Experience at USA Jet

We have hired at least three PFTer's, one is still here as a DC-9 Captain. One it now at Netjets as a Captain, and one is a F/O at a DC-9 passenger outfit. Another friend of mine was an F/O at Spirit, before going on to a 747 int'l operator. Remember PFT was very common in the mid-90's

 

[The_Russian]

I'm catching up.....

Three of my students at GIA are working for Pinnicle. One is flying for a 135 at KFXE. One of my GIA buddies got hired on with COEX. In the past 2 years at GIA at least 200 have gone to Pinnicle and a few went to Commute Air and Colgan.

 

[Ty Webb]

Did you ever stop to think that if you clowns weren't pathetically renting out the right seat of a B1900, they would actually have to hire, train and pay someone to do it?

Congratulations . . . . you guys made paying jobs disappear. Really something to be proud of.

I guess you gave that as much thought as you did the spelling of the various airlines your former 'ho's went on to fly for. . . . it's "Pinnacle" and "Commutair", Mr. Yeager.

 

[ataopsdave]

Not to defend PFT or anything but I dont think that Gulfstream would be in business if it were not for the First Officer Program

 

[Timebuilder]

You're probably right.

If GIA had to train and pay pilots instead of the other way around, they would probably go out of business, and be replaced by a company that had the respect and support of the aviation community.

I know most on here claim it is a plaque and you will never get hired.

I'd only worry about that "plaque" in terms of your dental health.

A plague would be far more serious.



Jes having a little fun, no harm done....

 

[pilotyip]

Aviation community?

Timebuilder, who defines the aviaition community that we need respect from?

 

[pilotyip]

Exactly

T-bills exactly as I have advocated all along. It is up to the individual to determine what is best for them. The individual will make their own choices, and benefit or suffer from those choices. The politically correct narrow thinking spouted on this board can be misleading and detrimental to many pursuing careers in aviation. We need more of the information in a format of "Here is why I think this is a good idea”, and give people information they can use in making choices. We all know that responses you get when you cross the politically correct line , like “you are a looser if you don’t make 100K per year”, or “only weak pilots go to PFT”, or "management sucks and only exists to screw the pilot force". These or any of the other negative responses that regularly come out of the politically correct crowd are misleading and self-fulfilling. These responses also do not reflect the thinking of all those who view this site. You are responsible for your own happiness and it is not up to anyone else to determine what you should do to make yourself happy. Hey! it is Sunday, I get to preach.

 

[bobbysamd]

NOT Exactly

It is up to the individual to determine what is best for them. The individual will make their own choices, and benefit or suffer from those choices.

Two cliches in response:

(1) To thine ownself be true; and

(2) You have made your bed; now, lay in it.

The politically correct narrow thinking spouted on this board can be misleading and detrimental to many pursuing careers in aviation . . . . We all know that responses you get when you cross the politically correct line , like “you are a looser if you don’t make 100K per year”, or “only weak pilots go to PFT”, or "management sucks and only exists to screw the pilot force".

Let's address each of these comments:

(1) There is nothing misleading or detrimental about advising someone not to pull an end-run around the system. P-F-T's ultimate purpose is to provide that opportunity. Aviation is a very conservative and traditional business. Those who eschew such traditions risk - and I emphasize, risk - being eschewed by their peers. Perhaps, Yip, your hiring process is different than at others places, but so many other places involve pilot interview boards, comprised of pilots who came up through the ranks and resent those who did not. I, for one, wouldn't want to lay down $50K-plus on P-F-T tuition if I had even an inkling that a board might blackball me for P-F-Ting.

Yes, you can't please everyone, so you must please yourself - "Garden Party," by Rick Nelson & The Stone Canyon Band, 1972. At the same time, you have to be smart, practical and pragmatic.

(2) I don't know where you got that, Yip. I know pilots who earn far less than $100K and they certainly are not losers.

(3) Define "weak." What kills me is that some otherwise-qualified pilots P-F-T. I would submit that they could get legitimate, non-P-F-T jobs without doing so.

Thirteen years ago, I met every qualification on paper, but I was getting nowhere. I could have P-F-Td. I do not believe that any job is worth buying. Bottom line, it is a job. There are plenty of jobs to be had without purchasing them.

I would further submit that a check obviates any purported experience requirement set forth by a P-F-T company. If someone with weak flying skills or experience shows up to a P-F-T company with check in hand, will that person be turned down at the door? I really rather doubt it. To expect otherwise is not reality. (I realize, Russian, that Gulfstream requires a P-F-Ter to get past its instrument refresher before he/she can move on.)

(4) I do not believe that management, in any business, exists strictly to screw workers. It has better things to do than to focus on the help. However, if a decision is to be made between the company and a (loyal, hard-working and tenured) employee, nine times out of ten the decision will be made against the employee. And, that is tough on the employee, who is depending on that paycheck to exist. He has lost his job while his manager still has his - not to mention that there are a number of sadists out there who enjoy their power trip by canning someone. So, no wonder why employees view employers with cynicism.

Over the years, the law has recognized that employees have property rights in their employment and has tried to address those rights. There are benevolent employers who treat their employees right.

These responses also do not reflect the thinking of all those who view this site.

Oh, I dunno about that. There are plenty of pro-P-F-Ters who comment on this board, though I have seen little offset to the anti-P-F-T concerns I have seen.

You are responsible for your own happiness and it is not up to anyone else to determine what you should do to make yourself happy.

And, once you make that decision, be prepared to take responsibility for it.

To thine ownself be true.

 

[searching]

I AM NOT a PFTer, and I won't be, but that is just because I have a line on a great flight instructor job with good pay and multi-time, so I have no need to pay. On the other hand, I will not hold it against somebody who does, because I, and 99% of the pilots I know, including flight instructors, really DON'T CARE either way about PFT/Gulfstream/Tab/or the Mesa pay for a job thing.

I only know 2 PFTers personally, both have had regional careers (over 4 years) at 2 different (GOOD) regionals, both happy, employed, never treated with any distain like some say on this board, with one of them now on furough from Northwest.

Untill there is some some sort of proof that PFT has indeed hurt the industry, I think most people will tend to not care.

One argument that the pro-PFTers have brought is, up untill now, PFT outfits have not yet affected aviation in any way from what it has been in the past. This argument they have won.

If someone chooses to not PFT, fine, if somebody has the $moola$, and chooses to, .................To each his/her own

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

If someone chooses to not PFT, fine, if somebody has the $moola$, and chooses to, .................To each his/her own

Which harkens back to my initial reaction to P-F-T thirteen years ago, that aviation is a rich man's game.

 

[searching]

"Which harkens back to my initial reaction to P-F-T thirteen years ago, that aviation is a rich man's game."

I wouldn't disagree with that overall,

but I'm not rich, and neither were the two people who I know that PFT'd. Though I know I wish I were rich. I would buy myself a G550. What a sweet bird.

 

[duksrule]

Re: NOT Exactly

Thirteen years ago, I met every qualification on paper, but I was getting nowhere. I could have P-F-Td. I do not believe that any job is worth buying. Bottom line, it is a job. There are plenty of jobs to be had without purchasing them.

[/B]

So what airline are you flying for now? I am sorry and I know that you are a very knowledgeable pilot and respected member or this board but think about it. How many people on here bash the PFTers and don't exactly have a left seat at the majors. If anything Bobby, you are a prime argument against the flight instructor route. I am not trying to start a flame war. I am just stating a fact. Maybe if you would have PFTed you would be in a different place in your life. Don't begrudge someone else for wanting to live a dream.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

C'mon...

Nobody really cares if you PFT and its not going to affect your future...but its pretty lame to PAY for these types of $hit jobs....

Wouldn't one feel like a moron PAYING for a loser job at one of these outfits?

Wouldn't one feel stupid, if not embarrased??

I sure would. It would take a lot away from this career. A big part of the satisfaction of getting a decent job in aviation is all the hard work it took to get there...

Theres something to say for working your way up, building solid experience, making friends who turn into great future contacts......and these contacts get you the REAL jobs, not just a tool job yanking gear in a 1900...

but hey, whatever floats your boat, right?

 

[bobbysamd]

Paying to "live the dream"

So what airline are you flying for now? I am sorry and I know that you are a very knowledgeable pilot and respected member or this board but think about it. How many people on here bash the PFTers and don't exactly have a left seat at the majors.

Go run a search. There are any number of people here who fly for airlines and are anti-P-F-T.

If anything Bobby, you are a prime argument against the flight instructor route.

Did I ever say that flight instructing is the only route to the airlines? No, I did not. I have said, many times, more power to the person who can get a non-instructing flying job at 250 hours. P-F-Ters aside, there are so many 250-hour pilots who try for jobs and fail that they end up getting their CFIs anyway so they can work.

My first full-time flying job, obtained at age 37, was flight instructing. I was thrilled beyond belief to get that job. It took me nearly a year to get a job, during a hiring boom, no less. To me, that was the beginning of "living the dream." Through that job, I eventually built enough hours to warrant interviews.

I tried for plenty of non-instructing jobs during that time until I got that job, primarily because I didn't know any better. Two of those jobs included what is now Aloha Island Air, which advertised mins at something like 500 total and 50 of multi, which I had, and Scenic Airlines, which advertised similar low requirements.

Maybe if you would have PFTed you would be in a different place in your life. Don't begrudge someone else for wanting to live a dream.

Whatever floats your boat, right? I shudder to think where that place might be had I made such a bargain. That aside, reread what I have said many times before. I do not believe in purchasing a job, in broadcasting, aviation, law or anywhere. No job, of any kind, in any vocation, profession, trade or business, is worth purchasing. Time, experience in the workplace and being screwed by bosses makes one realize the value of being hired straight-up for a job. I would advise the same thing if someone asked my $0.02 opinion about paying-for-training for any position outside of aviation.

 

[Caveman]

There are at least a couple of hundred guys here at CMR that had to PFT. They are all Captains and most of them make north of $80K @ year with about 15 days off a month. There are even more that have moved on to bigger and better things. Every one I met was a gentlemen, an excellent pilot, and decent folks to spend a four day with. They did what they had to do at a time when it was just about the only way to get started in this industry. I don't bear them any kind of grudge. I'm just glad that I didn't have to make the choices they did. Based on their experiences it would be hard for me to argue against doing it if it were the industry norm. Fortunately, it isn't. I recognize that if one company starts to do it again it could very well spiral out of control and become the norm again. There is certainly a case to be made that if no one ever agreed to PFT then it wouldn't gain any momentum. That is probably the real danger of the Gulfstreams of the world. I guess my take on it is to avoid it at all costs. But, if it is the norm then pony up and move on. Some things just aren't right but that's the way it is.

 

[The_Russian]

Caveman....

I agee with everything you say up until you put GIA in it. I like to say one thing: "It's not the school and it's not the instructor, it is the student who makes it happen." I would say this is 90% true, but others see it different and that is OK.

 

[Ty Webb]

There are plenty of instances where PFT works against you.

When I was flying 135 in S. FL we got a ton of resumes from GIA Flap Operators who had used up their 250 hours and were now out on the street.

Even though we were right there in Ft. Liquorstore and needed FO's, for our Metros, the Gulfstream resumes went right into the garbage. The CP even had a bulletin board he called his "Wall of Shame" and he posted some of the most ridiculous Gulfstreamer's resumes on it. When asked why, he said, "These guys made a paying job disappear, and they aren't going to be working here".

Later, at a different company, when I was flying corporate jets, not only did we pitch all GIA resumes, but when we had guys come in from the street and offer to fly SIC in our jets "to get experience" the CP used to immediately escort them to the door, saying "Sorry, but we only hire professionals here, and if you are willing to fly for free, you're not a professional". We all got a kick out of that.

And, at my last jet 135 job, I can tell you that the CP and I both both hated PFT, and never hired anyone whose resume indicated that they were at one of those carriers.

Will PFT limit your career? Maybe . . . . and maybe not, but you'll never know which interview you didn't get because of that GIA on your resume.

If you were the CP, and you have two candidates, one who paid his dues like you did, and one who paid a bunch of money to get out of paying his dues, well, which one are you going to hire?

 

[The_Russian]

I wonder how many people have hated you for being such a horrible person. I wonder if someone threw your resume out for acting like that. I'm sure people laughed at you when you came in and asked for a job as an instructor. Don't judge someone on where they have been, judge them for who they are. Some of us at GIA have done our time.

 

[Ty Webb]

Horrible person? That's a laugh. Actions speak louder than words.

Don't judge someone on where they have been, judge them for who they are.

Look, Chief, if you didn't rent out the FO seat, they would have had to hire and pay someone to do it. It might not have been you; it might have been someone who was a little further along in their career, but it's clear that you don't even grasp what you have done by payin them your money.

Some of us at GIA have done our time.


No, you BOUGHT your time . . . . and that's the point.