Oh no another PFT thread

[secks]

Re: Non-sequiturs

That is preposterous. Some jobs simply do not pay much money. No "concessions" are being made. Once more, pay-for-training is an employment issue only. Wages and economics are collateral to this issue.

Wages and economics are never "collateral" to employment. Read up on labor supply and demand. Good grief. Demand low, supply high, increase demand by working for less or even paying for the job.

Not a rational argument to whom? To you? Have you ever heard of the term, "entry-level job?" Once again, and I will not repeat it, flight schools and other training providers graduate dozens of pilots who would be happy to (1) flight instruct, (2) fly freight, and (3) fly corporate, which can involve cleaning latrines (and even have to do their own flight planning), to get the opportunity to build experience to make them eligible to fly heavies or whatever.

Look at your argument: there exist pilots who are more than happy to eat $hit in order to get within spitting distance of a plane, so should you. Uh, sorry, just because some pilots are willing to do it doesn't make it "the right way".

I would not expect you to know anything about broadcasting, but there are those who will buy radio stations just to be on the air, because they want to be on the air so badly. Probably because they were not good enough to be hired.

Or because they couldn't get meaningful experience any other way, or didn't want to. This is where your analogy breaks down. Airlines don't need exceptional pilots, they judge on the basis of hours. Radio stations, on the other hand, hire on the basis of talent. Thus, in aviation, plenty of low hours applicants are passed over by equally-skilled competitors who simply have more hours. In radio, you get passed over because you just suck.

That is not what I said. Read what I wrote again. To save your the effort, for the final time, I stated, in my opinion, that no job is worth buying from an employer. You lower yourself by doing so. As I have written elsewhere, after having worked for years and having been taken advantage by employers and/or simply been screwed by them, you learn to appreciate the value of an employer treating you fairly. P-F-T signifies from the beginning that you will tolerate unfair treatment. I cannot comprehend why that is so hard to understand.

Don't you see how subjective and emotional this argument is? "no job is worth buying from the employer, you lower yourself by doing so, PFT signifies that you tolerate unfair treatment".

First of all, you can't state declaratively that no job is worth buying. It all depends on how much someone wants a job. If a person is happy in legally doing something he initially paid to do, then who are you to judge?

Second, "lowering oneself" is a vague and subjective idea. Again, if someone is happy paying for the opportunity to perform a job, then who are you to judge? Do CFIs who work for anything under $30/hr "lower themselves"? How about $10/hr?

Third, "unfair treatment" is another subjective idea. Does a person who works for minimum wage and excessively long hours tolerate unfair treatment (ahem, CFIs, freight dogs, etc.)? Does that make this person inferior to someone who is unwilling to work at such a low wage? And exactly what is "unfair", anyway? Nobody forced these people into aviation.

Of course, if that's what you want to do . . . . I knew plenty of people in radio who pulled down their pants and bent over.Nothing wrong with starting a business to build hours and experience. Many pilots bought airplanes and instructed in them. By the way, that is not the same as buying a radio station and putting yourself on the air because no one will hire you.

<Sigh>

What if a pilot started up a business which operated at a loss so he could fly aircraft? I happen to know someone who came from money and did something very similar to that. Is he or is he not paying for the job? I'm simply trying to point out that these distinctions you make are completely arbitrary: the point at which someone lowers himself, what constitutes unfair treatment, etc.

 

[Lear70]

Bobby... just let it go man...

You're never going to convince someone who has already made up their mind, no matter how much logic you put into it. The reason: it's an ethical dillemma and different people from different backgrounds will have different ethical positions, that's why I stopped trying to convince other people of the truth in our position, even though I believe the aviation world would be better our way.

Shakespeare said it best, "To thine own self be true, and thus it falls you cannot be false to any man." So just do what is right for you as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else and forget what everyone else thinks is right or wrong... Makes it a lot easier to get through all this bullsh*t in this career and just enjoy what we're here for!

 

[bobbysamd]

<Sigh>

First of all, you can't state declaratively that no job is worth buying.

I believe I just have.

Originally posted by Lear 70

You're never going to convince someone who has already made up their mind, no matter how much logic you put into it. The reason: it's an ethical dillemma and different people from different backgrounds will have different ethical positions, that's why I stopped trying to convince other people of the truth in our position, even though I believe the aviation world would be better our way.

I know. You are absolutely right. I attempt to use facts, logic and common sense when I argue. I'd rather not use the word "argue"; I prefer to educate, discuss and persuade. No matter how hard you try, there will always be those who are unpersuaded by facts, logic and common sense, and simply want to be contrary.



This again brings me back to my days in radio. We'd get into discussions on our talk shows. Certain callers would come on and make ridiculous and totally unfounded statements. Our hosts, who were generally educated and well-informed people, would attempt to persuade them that they were wrong by using facts and information. These hard-headed, stupid and ignorant people refused to accept facts and documentation. "Don't confuse me with the facts; my mind is made up."



I'm done arguing with this person. It is like arguing with a child. "Those are not so blind as those who will not see." I stand by all my anti-P-F-T arguments, in this thread and elsewhere.

 

[Ty Webb]

Hey Ty,
I hope you don't say that crap to the Captains you fly with.
I personally know 6 Captains at your airline who came from GIA

I only know two who are captains, and one of the two didn't rent a seat, he was the CP. The rest are FO's.

 

[flyifrvfr]

Re: P-F-T

Which harkens back to my initial reaction to P-F-T thirteen years ago, that aviation is a rich man's game.

I have said aviation is a rich man's game also, but I made it to the level I'm at with hard work and much sacrafice. I'm now an unemployed Flight Instructor ( a possible interview for a 141 school is coming) and I can easily see how far I would have been if I were a rich man. I have been doing this since 1987 and I have a little over 400 hours. I took a five year sebaticle from aviation because I percieved aviation a rich man's game and it just wasn't in the cards for a person of my finances.

I worked as a tractor trailer driver and after earning the instrument in 2000, the commercial in 2002, I realized that my hard work broke through my misconceptions. In 2004, I earned the CFI and this should be a very good year for me.

With all of this being said, I would be doing myself a diservice to PFT now because thats all I have been doing. I paid a large sum of money and time to get to the CFI level and I'll be **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed if I'm going to put out more money to buy a job in the right seat. I will get my experience throught the tried and true route, instruct, move to a cargo job, and reach the jet job by age 40. I have a large desire to fly but my desire to show returns on money already invested in myself is larger. Patience, hard work, and a little more luck will take me to the fractional jet job I want so much.

 

[Publishers]

Ty

The answer to your question is simple, the one who is the bosses son.

 

[Jeff29]

I find this whole argument somewhat humorous. I am currently in neither camp, but am considering the PFT route. I simply see it as a quicker route to a paycheck, and frankly when you're 31, and married with kids, that makes a difference.

An earlier post said, "I would never pay for a job or pay for training". My question is, how's McDonald's working out for you? The fact is, if you've been to college, vocational school, etc., you've paid for training or paid for a job. How many doctors/med students do you think say, "I refuse to take that unpaid internship because that's eliminating a paying job"? The same could be said for lawyers, and most other professionals. If you want a top job at a Fortune 500 company would you apply for the job in the mailroom and try to work your way up, or would you drop the 100K and get the Harvard MBA?

The fact is, PFT/PFJ exists everywhere, and it has nothing to do with having money. I am still paying for my current job; a check every month to my student loan.

I hate to break it to you, but if you're out there building hours with a low-paying instructing job, you're paying for training. The only difference between you and the traditional PFT guy is that he paid the lump sum, and your on the installment program.

As far as the argument about paying for a position that would otherwise be a paid postition, I'll have to post my thoughts later, I'm taking the kids to see the guy who refused to pay for training. (Sorry, I'm really not that big of a jerk, but you know, "I had the shot, there was no danger, so I took it" ).

 

[Ty Webb]

Hmmn, it's working out just fine for me, thanks for asking.


The fact is, if you've been to college, vocational school, etc., you've paid for training or paid for a job. How many doctors/med students do you think say, "I refuse to take that unpaid internship because that's eliminating a paying job"?

Do a search, junior, and read up on the subject. It has been covered here infinitum.

I hate to break it to you, but if you're out there building hours with a low-paying instructing job, you're paying for training.

Actually, it is called building flight experience AND paying your dues . . . . but I guess no one told you that part.

As far as the argument about paying for a position that would otherwise be a paid postition, I'll have to post my thoughts later, I'm taking the kids to see the guy who refused to pay for training.

Man, you really are an idiot, aren;t you? Tell you what- go buy yourself a PFT job, come back and tell us in three or four years how things are going.

Over and Out.

 

[searching]

Ty Webb I am not saying this to insult you, but you are not an interview board pilot. And the vocal minority on this and a few other web boards who hate PFT and PFTers enough to not hire somebody down the road just because they PFT'd, even if they are the better pilot, (which could, or could not be the case) are not in the majority. There are thousands of pilots who PFT'd in the nineties, and are at majors, or are furloughed from majors. These guys are going to be senior to you, and they will be the ones on the interview boards. I have not PFT'd, but I did attend a large flight College, and we had speakers from large airlines come in and talk to us on numerous occasions. PFT, was brought up a couple of times. Guess what, nobody cared, and they are interview pilots. Whoever is the more qualified and suitable applicant gets the job. If somebody wants to buy training, or time, it is their perogative.

It is frankly sad, and disturbing that somebody would possibly, hire a less qualified pilot/person just because they did not pay money for buliding time, or paid for their training at an airline. That is sad. If you have a problem with pay for training, don't do it. It's your money. But guys who PFT, can do what they will with THEIR money. It's not your money, and not your life.

I know numerous pilots (2 on interview boards) from both camps, many don't like PFT. But if they come accross a pilot who did PFT at an interview, and he/she is the better pilot, they are going to hire that person over the guy who did not.
PFT. If the non-PFT person is the better candidate, then that person will get the job.

This case is the majority. Not guys who think they are going to stick it to somebody who went a differnt path than they did. Most people are not that bitter or vengeful.

 

[Ty Webb]

Guess what? Those "Interview Board Pilots" didn't care, because they didn't have to deal with the consequences of the PFT pilots.

When someone who is making the decision now to PFT will be looking to get hired at an airline, by that time, most of the interview board members will be guys like me- who saw the consequences of this selfish behaviour first-hand.

Good Luck.

 

[Jeff29]

Could someone please give me a logical and unemotional explanation as to how PFTing is selfish?

As for the flame of my previous post, I'll have to respond to that later.

 

[airbuslovely]

"Guess what? Those "Interview Board Pilots" didn't care, because they didn't have to deal with the consequences of the PFT pilots.
When someone who is making the decision now to PFT will be looking to get hired at an airline, by that time, most of the interview board members will be guys like me- who saw the consequences of this selfish behaviour first-hand."...........


You would not be put on a pilot review board at my company. Not with an attitude like that.

 

[Ty Webb]

OK, Buddy, whatever you say.

And the rest of my colleagues won't be Chief Pilots at the Fractionals, and CP's at a bunch of the better corporate flight departments . . . . . wait! Too late.

 

[bobbysamd]

Schooling v. P-F-T

An earlier post said, "I would never pay for a job or pay for training". My question is, how's McDonald's working out for you?

Well, in my case, I have never paid for a job, thank you, and I don't work for McDonald's.

The fact is, if you've been to college, vocational school, etc., you've paid for training or paid for a job. How many doctors/med students do you think say, "I refuse to take that unpaid internship because that's eliminating a paying job"? The same could be said for lawyers, and most other professionals. If you want a top job at a Fortune 500 company would you apply for the job in the mailroom and try to work your way up, or would you drop the 100K and get the Harvard MBA?

That is hogwash, and you know it. There is a great differentiation between going to school and P-F-T. Let me sort it out for you briefly.

For one thing, to learn a skill, you have to go to school. Except for Donald Trump's TV show, not too many professions or trades have apprentices any more. If you want to be an attorney, you need college and law school. Law readers are extremely rare these days, if not extinct. If you want to fly airplanes, you need flight training. Flight training costs money. Initial training, of any kind, in any vocation or profession, costs money, if you pay for it, or if Mom and Dad pays for it.

P-F-T is an employment issue, only. Let's say you get all your ratings, including CFI, during your initial training. After you complete your training, there are CFI jobs available, at no cost to you for training at their companies. You just have to do some legwork and put forth some effort to ferret them out.

I would submit that many P-F-Ters do not care to bother looking for work when it is so much easier to write a check for the "job."

The fact is, PFT/PFJ exists everywhere, and it has nothing to do with having money. I am still paying for my current job; a check every month to my student loan.

Did you have to pay money to the employer to be trained for the job? Probably not. Therefore, that is not P-F-T/pay-for-job.

I hate to break it to you, but if you're out there building hours with a low-paying instructing job, you're paying for training.

How?? Did money change hands between employee and employer for employee to be hired? That is the primary test of P-F-T. (Training that is esoteric to the job only and is not a tangible credential is a secondary test.)

The only difference between you and the traditional PFT guy is that he paid the lump sum, and your on the installment program.

No. Unfortunately, some jobs do not pay well. But that does not make them P-F-T.

Once again, P-F-T is an employment issue. Only.

 

[gottafly]

Okay, I am new here. This is my first post. Perhaps my last from the tone of this issue. Sounds like you people might eat me alive!

But what the h*ll is a guy supposed to do to pay his dues?
I have an AS degree from Riddle, have been flight instructing for a year, don't make enough to cover rent, food, student loans, car payments, etc. Have my CFI CFII MEI and have passed the written ATP. I am starving. I have a little over 600 hours, over 100 multi, and I am seriously considering doing one of the airline transition or FO courses because if I don't get a job that pays me at least enough to eat, I will have to give up the dream, (and the investment already made) of being an airline pilot forever and find a job that I can live off of.
Is it possible that by investing a little more to get hired by a regional might just get me in the door?

How DID you pay your dues without being homeless and hungry? Did you have a wife that financially supported you? I don't. I am on my own.

How did you do it? How did you finally get that break? I need to know, seriously.

 

[bobbysamd]

Dues Paying 101

How DID you pay your dues without being homeless and hungry? Did you have a wife that financially supported you?

Perseverance got me my chance. No one supported me. I did it all myself. It is all about putting forth effort and being patient.

I was single when I changed careers to be a professional pilot. Probably older than you, at age 37. My first real flying job was as an instructor at Riddle. I moved from Oklahoma to Arizona and took a $7K pay cut for that job. If you don't think that pay cut was significant, I went from a salary that was about $23K. Before I got that job, I had applied to regionals and freight and tried to make contacts.

I wasn't broke when I started at Riddle, but I didn't have much money. Money from my day job and savings had gone into flying and training. I didn't receive students for about seven weeks after I arrived at ERAU, so I wasn't receiving income during that time. When I finally had students, I had trouble getting 172s, so my income was further eroded. I started at Riddle with about a thousand hours but comparatively little multi.

I was careful with the money I earned. Just like everyone, I was anxious to build multi. In the meantime, I figured out the ERAU scheduling and blue-slip system to get airplanes. I built hours, and several months later I hit 1500 and got my ATP. In those days, you could not take the ATP written until you met ATP times and had FSDO verify your logbook. My multi turn at ERAU came nine months after I was hired. About a year thereafter, I finally had regional interviews. I could have had one sooner, but I had signed a contract to be a Riddle stage check pilot (at a decent salary) and wanted to fulfill its terms.

I gather from your comments that you are working as a CFI. Bear in mind that along with wages come hours for your logbook. At times, it's hard to accumulate money, but flight time always accumulates. Eventually, you will build enough time for the regionals. You have an excellent educational background which will help you.

It's all about hanging in. If someone like me could do it, you certainly can do it. Just keep working hard and try to be patient. Don't succumb to the P-F-T lorelei.

 

[The_Russian]

Ty,

Explain to me the consequences of PFT.

 

[Lear70]

Pretty much the same story here... Graduated MTSU Dec '94 with all ratings through CFI and started instructing at a local flight school for $20 an hour, making about $300 a week, then busted my tail to get to know and helping out everyone on the ramp as I finished my CFII and MEI. Finally one of those operators hired me on as a King Air F/O making that same $300 a week ($75 per trip, average 4 trips per week).

Shortly after that I put out my resumes to all the regionals at the same time. Didn't know much about them but started getting all kinds of calls to PFT, "Just pay us $12,000 and we'll put you in the right seat of a JEATSTREAM! WOW!" Turned them all down, simply because I believe it is ethically and morally wrong for an employer to require someone to pay for something they're going to have to obtain in order to conduct business per FAR's. I consider it THEIR COST OF DOING BUSINESS; if someone wants to run an airline, they need to suck it up and pay for their business expenditures like any other industry and if people stopped PFT, they would have to train pilots themselves! Wow... concept.

Since all the regionals were at that time PFT, I stuck it out in the charter sector and within six months I upgraded to left seat in the King Air ($600 a week), six months later the right seat of a Lear (same $600 a week), a year after that left seat in a Lear 31 at Flexjet making $52,500, a year later the right seat of a 727 flying freight for $48,000, then a year and a half later in the left seat of a 727 making $84,000. Life was good until FedEx took over the USPS contract, now I'm back at the same regional that asked me to PFT but on my terms - I didn't pay for anything - they paid for hotel and per diem during training and I make a livable wage as a CRJ Captain at $50,000 (amusingly enough, less than I was making at Flexjet 5 years after the fact and about half of what I could make as a Lear Captain flying contract charter for $400 a day now, but I didn't have any Part 121 PIC Jet so I took this route - not much I haven't done in civilian aviation now).

The downside: amusingly enough, since I live in Nashville, several of my schoolmates PFT'd at what is now Pinnacle and were there for the 5 years I was moving around the Charter world. They are 5 years senior to me, holding lines with 14, 15, 16 days off and making about $20k a year more than I am although I'll be holding a line soon and that difference will narrow by about half. They also have about 2,000 to 3,000 more hours than me because of the differences in daily flight operations between regionals and charter, but almost all of that is right seat turboprop time while I've been flying Lears and Boeing jets up to 200,000 pounds Part 121, so it evens out.

Difference in pay over a career? They averaged 3 years in the right seat at around $15k a year less their first year $12k PFT = $33,000. I made $97,000 total those three years. Next two years they were Jetstream or Saab Captains making about $30,000 and added one or two turboprop ratings; I made $122,000 those two years and added two jet type ratings. Last 3 years, they were Saab Captains for a year, then Jet Captains for two years making $10,000 less than me the first year, then $20,000 more than me the last two years, so they were up $30,000 on me with more days off. Total difference so far? I'm up $126,000 with three jet types earned plus one given to me by the Federal government when I got laid off (gotta love WIA).

Now the downside - IF they get hired before I do the difference will be three years at their final paycheck average - let's say around $200,000 in today's dollars; they would have made about half a Million more than me over a career, but I chose not to live in poverty for the first 5 years of my professional career. Now reality: 7 of them got hired on at UAL or Delta but ALL those guys who made it to the majors were furloughed and STILL haven't found work - because they never got quaified to do anything else in the aviation world. That means they haven't flown for money in nearly 2 1/2 years with recalls still a year or two out - deduct half to 2/3 of that difference in career earnings, plus doing something that you hate to put food on the table - no flying for those years. I've had 7 job offers for Lear charter or 727 left seat Supplemental 121 again over the last 3 years which I turned down - they can't get them because they PFT'd and don't have the experience. Chew on that for a while...

Your situation: if you take your ERAU student loan, add it to Gulfstream or wherever's $25,000 loan, get hired at a regional with 1,000 or so Total Time, it will take you 2 to 3 years to upgrade, and that's IF they have any growth once you hold the time. You can't afford to pay your student loans on F/O pay at any regional that I know of until you hit about 3rd year pay, you're going to be sharing a crashpad with a bunch of guys anyway, so you're in the same financial boat you are now for the next few years... just something to think about.

How do you do it without PFT these days? I wasn't married. Daddy wasn't paying the bills. I shared a 3 bedroom apartment with a guy and two girls and we split the $200 a month rent for the first year and a half, then the next year I split a condo with a roommate for $350 a month. I had a paid-off '76 Corvette that cost me $4,000 and I fixed up, so nothing but gas and car insurance, and my student loan was deferred over those years. Yeah, it's not the best situation in the world, but it's livable, honorable, and I can honestly say I never PFT'd.

Question is, what's important to you?

 

[Ty Webb]

Lear 70-

Nice post. well-reasoned and well-written.

About that 727 time, what was it? Part 125? I'll bet AirTran and others would consider that the same as 121 PIC time. If you want, I'd be happy to look into it for you.

TW

 

[Lear70]

Actually, it was Supplemental 121 freight - Express One out of Dallas. Mostly scheduled USPS runs but we also did ad-hoc Eagle freight out of Austin down to Mexico and up to YIP... was a lot of fun for night freight, great people, good money; too bad it had to end! Upgraded in December of 2000 and went to Pinnacle (Express Airlines I) in May of '01... just to get laid off after 9/11 like a lot of other people. Luckily Pinnacle was growing and we were only out 60-90 days.

I've been bugging Jill at the AIR, Inc fairs for a couple years now, keep hoping I'll hear back from her!