October 1, 2008.....A sad day in Commercial Avation.

[NuGuy]

What would have happened if this merger never happened?
Would both still be around?
Neither?
Just wondering...

You never know. AirTran pilots SWORE that the Midwest deal was DONE, as in final, locked up.

They "Tendered their stock! They're committed!", and were packing their bags for MKE.

It ain't over 'till it's over.

Nu

 

[Bringupthebird]

While the East and the West are for the sake of a common name, US Airways, they are operating under 2 separate contracts. The West has a seniority list and the East has theirs. The West side is loosing flying time so the furloughs are in inverse seniority on the West side. Consequently, the furloughs on the East are in inverse seniority on the East side. It is true, some of the furloughed West pilot were hired years ahead of the still working East pilots, by virtue of separate contracts, they will get furloughed before the East.
I hope that clears up the confusion.

Let's step back one, Cap. The NMB said that we were a single carrier and authorized a representation election based on that determination. What is single about it besides the name and the call sign? Operationally there are limitations that apply to one side, but not the other. Adminstratively the payrolls are from 2 different places. Management and training are split at many levels. And the abomination that is USAPA would not be able to assist inthe destruction of the west pilot's careers absent this determination and subsequent election.

Would the furloughs have occurred regardless of which union was at the helm? Perhaps, but the west pilots could have advocated on their own behalf instead of being forced to be towel boy for Bradford's junta.

If 40% of the pilots are looking at permanent destruction of their careers, they are either looking towards retirement or another carrier/career. No one on the west has a vested interest in seeing USAPA win it's little game of king of the hill of this turd.

USAPA - So wrong for so long.

 

[TWA Dude]

Even the west should have just said no to the arbitration, knowing it would create problems for an airline that doesn't need any more issues.

Right. And if the arbitrator had decided to staple 2/3 of the West (aka DOH) you'd be advocating the East give it up in the name of unity? Gimme a break.

After seeing the uproar on the east, the west MEC should have realized this isn't going to work, and moved toward something better for both sides.

Ah, yes, that old strategy called "Blame the Victim". The West should've just done everything we could to appease the East. Right.

That left the east with no choice but to use every option to fight this thing.

Not true! They could've chosen the path of integrity and showed they understood that binding arbitration means binding. After all, if binding doesn't mean binding why go into arbitration at all? The West didn't know how Nicolau was going to rule.

Both sides need to throw out the arbitration,

The West has no representation! USAPA is run by the East for the East. The West has no authority to throw anything out even if we wanted to. The time for negotiation ended last April. Now there's only litigation and acrimony until the last day. Only one side can end the dispute. And they won't.

... and replace it with an even slotting, with protections for ALL.

Great idea. That's what Nicolau did. You have read the Nicolau Award, haven't you?

You should be protected for the assets your company brought to the table.

Agreed. Nicolau agreed as well.

The east guys/gals just want to keep what they had before, and the same for the west.

Oh, really? At the time of the merger the most junior FO at US Airways was like a 1988 hire. Why should the most junior East FO be made senior to West captains? Can you tell the difference between seniority and longevity? Hint: one has nothing to do with years of service.

 

[OnTheDole]

all this does is further destroy an airline that has been going through this since PSA and USAir and even before that

I really believe the problem is the people of USAir - every employee group is bitter and caustic. Now not every employee meets that discription but as a whole the labor force does and its been that way for decades. This fight between east/ west is just whats on the table today. If west the rolled over and gave in on DOH something else would pop up for the employees to destroy the company over.

 

[Bringupthebird]

It's their inborn masochistic tendencies that I find most intriguing. They do all they can to destroy the airline, then give away everything in the name of saving the place they love to hate. Perhaps the next bankruptcy judge will hold an intervention as he closes the doors.

 

[cactusboy53]

While the East and the West are for the sake of a common name, US Airways, they are operating under 2 separate contracts. The West has a seniority list and the East has theirs. The West side is loosing flying time so the furloughs are in inverse seniority on the West side. Consequently, the furloughs on the East are in inverse seniority on the East side. It is true, some of the furloughed West pilot were hired years ahead of the still working East pilots, by virtue of separate contracts, they will get furloughed before the East.
I hope that clears up the confusion.

You may have missed the part where I mentioned the part about the "third listers". Those people were hired AFTER the merger was completed. Those TL pilots on the west were first to be furloughed, but the TL pilots out EAST remain gainfully employed while ORIGINAL AWA pilots hit the streets today. Again, Parker and Hemenway state they are "following their interpretation of the tentative agreement". Bradford and his little fiefdom work on more important things, like seeing how many west pilots can be fired for non-payment of dues.

 

[weasel_lips]

Today marks a new low in Commercial Aviation. Beginning today the New US Airways has furloughed 53 (I believe) pilots out of PHX and LAS. While that is indeed sad news, further troubling is that 45 (I believe) of that number were pilots hired at America West Airlines BEFORE the acquisition of the old US Air.

And it would be all 1,800 of you without the merger with old USAIR.

How is that lawsuit going where you westies are trying to get a judge to rule that all furloughes should be on the east side only? And you like to complain about USAPA?

 

[cactusboy53]

And it would be all 1,800 of you without the merger with old USAIR.

How is that lawsuit going where you westies are trying to get a judge to rule that all furloughees should be on the east side only? And you like to complain about USAPA?

Dude;
I was pontificating how unfair it is to furlough original AWA pilots BEFORE the "third listers" have been furloughed. It even spells it out in the TA. I believe USAPA could even wrap it's little dictator brain around that concept, since it is in fact a date of hire tenant.

You are clearly and angry and vile little man (I presume gender category). Didn't you read the point of the original post? It wasn't that difficult. Typical "ready, shoot, aim" retort.

We'll see how the judge rules sometime here in the next weeks. I just find it a pity that we have to employ these measures to hopefully steer the company and our "union"...(oops, had to choke back some bile) to do the right thing vs. the least expensive thing.

I wonder....is a judge's decision greater than, lesser than or equal "binding arbitration".

Careful...READY.....SHOOT!! Oh, crap! READY.....A...SHOOT!! Crap!! READY..............:uzi:

 

[Cobra17]

Is ALPA doing anything for the former westies (and current hostages) who dumped all that money into their coffers, or have they already said "good luck" and changed the locks on the doors?

I do love hearing that Cactus call sign on the NATS...must pain them so much to say it.

 

[Lampshade]

Here's some facts for you Bud straight from the TA (remember that thing?)


America West may hire new pilots if all pilots on the US Airways seniority list have been offered recall to US Airways or have been offered a pilot position at America West. New pilots hired during the Separate Operations will be placed by their date of hire on a third seniority list entitled “New Hire Seniority List,” will be junior to all pilots on the pilot seniority lists of America West and US Airways on the effective date of this Letter of Agreement, and will continue to be junior to those pilots on the integrated seniority list of America West and US Airways pilots.

 

[TWA Dude]

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081002/delta_northwest_pilots_ahead_of_the_bell.html?.v=1

Thursday October 2, 6:04 am ET

Arbitration hearings begin over how to integrate Delta-NWA pilot seniority lists
LOS ANGELES (AP) -- A three-member arbitration panel was to begin closed-door hearings to determine how to integrate the pilot seniority lists at Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp. after the two carriers combine.
Thursday's session was being held at a hotel near Los Angeles. It was to last until Sunday. The hearings were to continue Oct. 20-24 in Washington and then return to Los Angeles from Nov. 15-17.
Union officials said the hearings would be closed to the news media.
The two sides have been in a stalemate over how to integrate their seniority lists, though they have approved a joint collective bargaining agreement covering roughly 12,000 pilots.
Pilots value their seniority because it determines their schedule, the aircraft they fly and layoff protection.
The panel -- California labor attorney Fredric Horowitz, attorney Dana Eischen and veteran arbitrator Richard Bloch -- was being called on to resolve the seniority issue.
A written decision, which would be binding, is due by Nov. 20.
Horowitz and Bloch also served on an arbitration panel selected in 2006 to determine whether Delta, which was under bankruptcy protection at the time, could void its pilots' contract and impose pay and benefit cuts unilaterally. Delta's pilots union, which had threatened to strike, eventually agreed to concessions, and that panel never issued a ruling.
Those hearings, unlike the ones that begin Thursday, were open to the media.
Atlanta-based Delta's stock-swap deal to acquire Eagan, Minn.-based Northwest, announced April 14, was given the go-ahead by shareholders of both companies on Sept. 25. It is still subject to regulatory approval. Delta is hoping to close the deal by the end of the year.

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Absolutely shocking. Those DAL and NW guys must be stupid to put something as important as seniority integration in the hands of arbitrators. Why can't they be like USAPA and just go DOH?
{/sarcasm off}

I wonder if Delta doesn't like the results they'll just dump ALPA and try to impose a list on NWA? Would USAPA cheer them on for doing so?