• NC Software is having a Black Friday Sale Event thru December 4th on Logbook Pro, APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook, Cirrus Elite Binders, and more. Use coupon code BF2020 at checkout to redeem 15% off your purchase. Click here to shop now.
  • NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

October 1, 2008.....A sad day in Commercial Avation.

cactusboy53

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
Posts
542
Total Time
16K+
Today marks a new low in Commercial Aviation. Beginning today the New US Airways has furloughed 53 (I believe) pilots out of PHX and LAS. While that is indeed sad news, further troubling is that 45 (I believe) of that number were pilots hired at America West Airlines BEFORE the acquisition of the old US Air.

The next piece of this quagmire is that while the 45 AWA pilots go home today, there are a number of "third list" pilots (pilots hired AFTER the merger was complete and all furloughed US Air pilots had been recalled) that remain employed in PHL, DCA, LGA, CLT & BOS.

We AWA pilots believe this to be a violation of the Tentative Agreement between the company and both east and west pilot groups. The company's line is that they "are operating within their interpretation of the TA". USAPA (you remember, our new "union") policy of "date-of-hire" apparently does not apply in this circumstance. You will be happy to know that they continue to try to sue and fire as many AWA pilots as they possibly can.

I personally will keep ALL furloughed pilots at all airlines in my thoughts and prayers daily while we weather this economy and storm.

To Dave O'dell and "north of Dave", I give a special salute to you. You guys and gals are the best, and your skills and personalities will be sorely missed!!:cool:

Oh, BTW. You will be pleased to know that six (I believe) recalled furloughed (junior to O'dell) that chose to recall to the west side (MUCH better contract) mysteriously moved to the east (as they would have been furloughed. Apparently you can "recall" pilots on the east, even when you are furloughing at the same time.
 

Dogwood

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2005
Posts
346
Total Time
18,000
Today marks a new low in Commercial Aviation. Beginning today the New US Airways has furloughed 53 (I believe) pilots out of PHX and LAS. While that is indeed sad news, further troubling is that 45 (I believe) of that number were pilots hired at America West Airlines BEFORE the acquisition of the old US Air.

The next piece of this quagmire is that while the 45 AWA pilots go home today, there are a number of "third list" pilots (pilots hired AFTER the merger was complete and all furloughed US Air pilots had been recalled) that remain employed in PHL, DCA, LGA, CLT & BOS.

We AWA pilots believe this to be a violation of the Tentative Agreement between the company and both east and west pilot groups. The company's line is that they "are operating within their interpretation of the TA". USAPA (you remember, our new "union") policy of "date-of-hire" apparently does not apply in this circumstance. You will be happy to know that they continue to try to sue and fire as many AWA pilots as they possibly can.

I personally will keep ALL furloughed pilots at all airlines in my thoughts and prayers daily while we weather this economy and storm.

To Dave O'dell and "north of Dave", I give a special salute to you. You guys and gals are the best, and your skills and personalities will be sorely missed!!:cool:

Oh, BTW. You will be pleased to know that six (I believe) recalled furloughed (junior to O'dell) that chose to recall to the west side (MUCH better contract) mysteriously moved to the east (as they would have been furloughed. Apparently you can "recall" pilots on the east, even when you are furloughing at the same time.

Had the west agreed to Date of Hire, this wouldn't have happened, BUT, DOH wasn't the way to go. However, neither was slotting with little or no protections.

Even the west should have just said no to the arbitration, knowing it would create problems for an airline that doesn't need any more issues. After seeing the uproar on the east, the west MEC should have realized this isn't going to work, and moved toward something better for both sides. But they didn't, and just sat there saying, "We're good with it".

That left the east with no choice but to use every option to fight this thing.

Both sides need to throw out the arbitration, and replace it with an even slotting, with protections for ALL. You should be protected for the assets your company brought to the table. The east guys/gals just want to keep what they had before, and the same for the west.

I have friends on the east being furloughed as well. All left fairly stable jobs to go to US Airways, only to get a furlough notice shortly after they were out of training.

Yes, I agree. Very sad day, when anyone loses their job.

My thoughts and prayers go out to all. Very tough time to be furloughed.

It wasn't long ago I was turning in my ID, etc to the CLT chief pilot on my last day after 15 years there.

It's tough to go home and tell your little girl that "Daddy isn't an airline pilot anymore".
 

motch

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 26, 2006
Posts
349
Total Time
7700+
The next piece of this quagmire is that while the 45 AWA pilots go home today, there are a number of "third list" pilots (pilots hired AFTER the merger was complete and all furloughed US Air pilots had been recalled) that remain employed in PHL, DCA, LGA, CLT & BOS.


Just want to make sure I have this right..
Notwithstanding all the union/merger issues at USAirways, are you saying that there are new hires (hired last year or whenever) that have NOT been furloughed while pilots from the original USAir and America West have been furloughed?

Motch
 

JetMonkey

It's ok, I speak Jive
Joined
May 20, 2004
Posts
582
Total Time
9000+
Correctamundo! Unbelievable eh? We're breaking new ground here at the NEW US Airways.
 

Thebadcat1313

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2005
Posts
289
Total Time
9lives
Just want to make sure I have this right..
Notwithstanding all the union/merger issues at USAirways, are you saying that there are new hires (hired last year or whenever) that have NOT been furloughed while pilots from the original USAir and America West have been furloughed?

Motch

Motch,

You've ALMOST got it right. There are NO original USAir pilots furloughed and there will not be unless the company announces another round. That's right. All the original US pilots who were recalled as a result of this merger are safe and sound.

There are currently about 60+/- pilots on the east who were hired in the last year who are still working. There have been, I believe 28 furloughs on the east so far, all of whom were hired in the last year. As of today, there are 45 America West pilots on the street, the most junior of whom was hired in early 05', and 54 more are going on 11/1. This will take the furloughs on the AWA side back to 11/04 hire dates. There are pilots on the east who are currently flying that were in the hiring pool at AWA when the merger occurred. I know because I helped some of them get the interview and coached them. Now, they'll be working while I hit the street. Nice, huh?
 
Last edited:

On Your Six

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 8, 2004
Posts
4,509
Total Time
9,500
Unbelievable. This situation gets worse by the day. Parker must be proud...
 

get2flyin

Flyinawa!
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Posts
794
Total Time
15k+
Unbelievable. This situation gets worse by the day. Parker must be proud...

I don't know about Doug Parker, but I know that USAPA President Steven Bradford thinks this is the way it should be.
 

CaptBud330

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 27, 2003
Posts
72
Total Time
28,000
Not quite the whole story

While the East and the West are for the sake of a common name, US Airways, they are operating under 2 separate contracts. The West has a seniority list and the East has theirs. The West side is loosing flying time so the furloughs are in inverse seniority on the West side. Consequently, the furloughs on the East are in inverse seniority on the East side. It is true, some of the furloughed West pilot were hired years ahead of the still working East pilots, by virtue of separate contracts, they will get furloughed before the East.
I hope that clears up the confusion.
 

dispatchguy

Dad is my favorite title
Joined
Nov 30, 2001
Posts
1,569
Total Time
NIL
Scabford Sucks

He took Mesa's place now, well, ok, they suck too...

Good luck westies (former AWE Dispatcher)
 

82spukram

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 24, 2007
Posts
90
Total Time
10K
Why don't the East and West get together and work things out instead of going head to head and slowing killing their company in the process. I feel bad you are getting furloughed and for all who do get their walking papers (there is more wrong with the integrations and furloughs for both sides then can ever be made right at this point) but if the news about Airways is correct they are not doing very well and all this does is further destroy an airline that has been going through this since PSA and USAir and even before that. At what point does it not seem to make more sense to get it all down to one list (which would take care of this problem) and take on Parker so when I jump seat I do not have to look at his stupid face in that magazine anymore.

Just a thought from a guy who works for a company that pays me with culture which is cool until it is bill time.
 

FLYHY

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 16, 2005
Posts
54
Total Time
.02868
Parker has ruined everything HP built itself up to be. Thanks for ruining MY hometown airline Doug! That's all I have to say...
 

NuGuy

Ex-Commuter
Joined
May 30, 2003
Posts
2,375
Total Time
10000
Why don't the East and West get together and work things out instead of going head to head and slowing killing their company in the process.

Because it has degraded to a scorched earth philosophy. No one WANTS to back down.

The right or wrong, the AWA guys were handed a lottery ticket, and now they're told they can't cash it in.

The US pilots have the majority, and feel they can muscle their way.

AWA guys CAN'T come off their position, because they swore they'd defend the award AND they'd be admitting what the US guys pulled worked.

The US guys won't back down now, because they're emboldened by their position.

An ugly situation. They ought to go back and read "The Guns of August".

Nu
 
Last edited:

82spukram

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 24, 2007
Posts
90
Total Time
10K
Well guess who wins....the drunk, he gets lower wages and work rules. Once again I see this at jb (my employer) in which we have 2000 independent contractors were some got it great and others do not. I hope everyone can sit down and work this out for the long run. I always enjoy js on both sides East and West. Best of luck
 

goodgig

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
Posts
264
Total Time
Plenty
No dog in this fight, but

What would have happened if this merger never happened?
Would both still be around?
Neither?
Just wondering...
 

NuGuy

Ex-Commuter
Joined
May 30, 2003
Posts
2,375
Total Time
10000
What would have happened if this merger never happened?
Would both still be around?
Neither?
Just wondering...

You never know. AirTran pilots SWORE that the Midwest deal was DONE, as in final, locked up.

They "Tendered their stock! They're committed!", and were packing their bags for MKE.

It ain't over 'till it's over.

Nu
 
Last edited:

Bringupthebird

Grumpy? Who-Me?
Joined
Feb 7, 2006
Posts
2,182
Total Time
16120
While the East and the West are for the sake of a common name, US Airways, they are operating under 2 separate contracts. The West has a seniority list and the East has theirs. The West side is loosing flying time so the furloughs are in inverse seniority on the West side. Consequently, the furloughs on the East are in inverse seniority on the East side. It is true, some of the furloughed West pilot were hired years ahead of the still working East pilots, by virtue of separate contracts, they will get furloughed before the East.
I hope that clears up the confusion.

Let's step back one, Cap. The NMB said that we were a single carrier and authorized a representation election based on that determination. What is single about it besides the name and the call sign? Operationally there are limitations that apply to one side, but not the other. Adminstratively the payrolls are from 2 different places. Management and training are split at many levels. And the abomination that is USAPA would not be able to assist inthe destruction of the west pilot's careers absent this determination and subsequent election.

Would the furloughs have occurred regardless of which union was at the helm? Perhaps, but the west pilots could have advocated on their own behalf instead of being forced to be towel boy for Bradford's junta.

If 40% of the pilots are looking at permanent destruction of their careers, they are either looking towards retirement or another carrier/career. No one on the west has a vested interest in seeing USAPA win it's little game of king of the hill of this turd.

USAPA - So wrong for so long.
 

TWA Dude

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
3,666
Total Time
9999+
Even the west should have just said no to the arbitration, knowing it would create problems for an airline that doesn't need any more issues.
Right. And if the arbitrator had decided to staple 2/3 of the West (aka DOH) you'd be advocating the East give it up in the name of unity? Gimme a break.
After seeing the uproar on the east, the west MEC should have realized this isn't going to work, and moved toward something better for both sides.
Ah, yes, that old strategy called "Blame the Victim". The West should've just done everything we could to appease the East. Right.
That left the east with no choice but to use every option to fight this thing.
Not true! They could've chosen the path of integrity and showed they understood that binding arbitration means binding. After all, if binding doesn't mean binding why go into arbitration at all? The West didn't know how Nicolau was going to rule.
Both sides need to throw out the arbitration,
The West has no representation! USAPA is run by the East for the East. The West has no authority to throw anything out even if we wanted to. The time for negotiation ended last April. Now there's only litigation and acrimony until the last day. Only one side can end the dispute. And they won't.
... and replace it with an even slotting, with protections for ALL.
Great idea. That's what Nicolau did. You have read the Nicolau Award, haven't you?
You should be protected for the assets your company brought to the table.
Agreed. Nicolau agreed as well.
The east guys/gals just want to keep what they had before, and the same for the west.
Oh, really? At the time of the merger the most junior FO at US Airways was like a 1988 hire. Why should the most junior East FO be made senior to West captains? Can you tell the difference between seniority and longevity? Hint: one has nothing to do with years of service.
 

OnTheDole

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 9, 2003
Posts
166
Total Time
--
all this does is further destroy an airline that has been going through this since PSA and USAir and even before that

I really believe the problem is the people of USAir - every employee group is bitter and caustic. Now not every employee meets that discription but as a whole the labor force does and its been that way for decades. This fight between east/ west is just whats on the table today. If west the rolled over and gave in on DOH something else would pop up for the employees to destroy the company over.
 

Bringupthebird

Grumpy? Who-Me?
Joined
Feb 7, 2006
Posts
2,182
Total Time
16120
It's their inborn masochistic tendencies that I find most intriguing. They do all they can to destroy the airline, then give away everything in the name of saving the place they love to hate. Perhaps the next bankruptcy judge will hold an intervention as he closes the doors.
 
Top