NYT: "Market for Corporate Jets Goes Into Free Fall"

[JungleJett]

B19..

How about posting some info about your background in aviation. May lend a little umph to your post.

Who do you work for? In what capacity? Are you now or have you ever been a pilot?

 

[gunfyter]

B19,

I get it now.

Its not Bush's fault ... or Barney Frank's fault the economy turned down ...

It's pilot's unions that are killing our economy right?

 

[CALRepublic]

B19 flyer, I'll add one more thing to my earlier post. Back in early 2005 (pre-contract), a couple of our owners asked me how much I was making, and I told them the thrut. One of them said and I quote " that's disgusting low" the other guy said " that's BS".........the fact of the matter is that you have to pay people to care, if you reward them, they'll do a better job, nothing in life is free, my certificates weren't..........I WILL NOT BRAKE MY BACK FOR 32,000 dlrs.

 

[JungleJett]

or BREAK his back either....

 

[glasspilot]

..........I WILL NOT BRAKE MY BACK FOR 32,000 dlrs.

Way to crap on every pilot making less than 32K.

 

[milky]

B19 flyer, I see what you're saying. The thing is, we have to make enough to be respected as profesionals. If things went back to where they were (pre contract 2005), then we loose respect and credibilty as professionals and pilots. Back in 2005, I would airlne to a place, catch a ride on a CLS car someplace else. Get to talking with the limo driver, 4 out 5 times, his salary was twice my salary (as an F/O)........my college debt is 60,000, he paid nothing to become a driver.....do you see my point????

You are correct about the low pay of airline pilots, but the reason you are not being respected is because the collective 'you' is willing to take jobs for that little money. Collectively, young airline pilots are willing to run up a large amount of debt and then take jobs that barely pay the interest on the debt, let alone make a decent living. As a group, you have driven down your own value. That will only change when people stop showing up for the jobs that pop up. Right now, all of the jobs still seem to be getting thousands of applications per position. Right now, I'm not transitioning to airlines because of how bad of shape the community lies. I am not willing to make so little money for my experience.

As much as you guys seem to hate B-19, he does make good points about how your unions are destroying your own ability to survive. The way you've laid out your contracts has basically taken your ability to differentiate yourself from your buddy. So, what leg do you have to stand on to say you are worth more money when there is somebody just like you that is willing to work for minimum wage or less.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Way to crap on every pilot making less than 32K.

Point is, there shouldn't be any.

 

[B19 Flyer]

For Entertainment Only!

Of course not. It is how you make your living.

Bob19 is a Hired Hit Man. Scheeringa hired him. Ricci kept him.

His profession is that of a Union Buster. He is marginal as an Aviation Manager, at best. But he is kept around due to his Union Busting practice.

Once everyone realizes why he is here and what he is about, he and his words become powerless.

And you can count on those of us that know the man behind the mask, to continue ripping his mask off his face, no matter how many times he tries to put it back on.

Just ask yourself this: Bob19 has stated he works for a Part 121 Non-Union Airline. If that were really the case, why does he spend the VAST majority of his time practicing his Union Busting trade in the Fractionals forum?

Answer: He is a Vice President at Flight Options, and the day the Options Pilots are successful in securing a Contract, Bob19 is out of a Job.


Freedom is Not Free

This is the classic post that is always there to discredit anything I write and I personally find it hilarious. :laugh:

You give me too much credit.:beer:

When was the last Options post, eh? Weeks, months ago?

Nope.. you're wrong again but I'll enjoy it.

Everything I've ever written is true and my opinions are honest.

You just can't believe that anybody could ever dislike your precious, power hungry, selfish and greedy union. :bawling:

Let's watch the industy leading contract at NJ.

It will make for great entertainment for all of us as NJASAP fails to act in a timely manner without the support of the IBT. uke:

 

[Freedom]

Finally, I agree with Bob19 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let's watch the industy leading contract at NJ.

It will make for great entertainment for all of us as NJASAP fails to act in a timely manner without the support of the IBT. uke:

You are correct Bob19! Having the support of the IBT national as a Member of the IBT 1108 was critical to holding Flight Options Managements' feet to the Fire during their attempt to layoff out of Seniority which failed miserably. Hell, guys not only were reinstated, they got full back pay!

NetJets Pilots have decided they are now large enough that they can afford to pay for all the professional services they need on their own to defend themselves against the interests of management.

Clearly the likes of Flight Options, Citation Shares, FlexJet, Avantair, and XOJet, are far too small of Pilot Groups to provide the leverage which can be brought to bare when needed, than when a part of a National Union.

Thanks for making the case of how important it is to be not only a Union Member, but a member of a National Union, when you belong to a relatively small sized Pilot Group.

A Freudian slip there Bob? Actually know the value of the Teamsters to us in terms of leverage?

Perhaps you should Post before you drink.


Freedom is Not Free

 

[brokeflyer]

This is the classic post that is always there to discredit anything I write and I personally find it hilarious. :laugh:

You give me too much credit.:beer:

When was the last Options post, eh? Weeks, months ago?

Nope.. you're wrong again but I'll enjoy it.

Everything I've ever written is true and my opinions are honest.

You just can't believe that anybody could ever dislike your precious, power hungry, selfish and greedy union. :bawling:

Let's watch the industy leading contract at NJ.

It will make for great entertainment for all of us as NJASAP fails to act in a timely manner without the support of the IBT. uke:

A long time ago I asked you if, without the union, management would pay me what I am worth?

Let's assume that there was no unions...would management pay me 140k a year to fly?

I don't think so, I think they would pay the lowest amount possible regardless.

What is your opinion?

 

[Voice Of Reason]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/25/business/25jets.html?_r=2&hp

Market for Corporate Jets Goes Into Free Fall

By GERALDINE FABRIKANT
...

“The jet market stinks,” said Richard Santulli, the chief executive of Netjets, the private jet company owned by Berkshire Hathaway, the holding company led by Warren E. Buffett.
...

Mr. Santulli said that the Russians had been big buyers of jets.
“But the fall of the Russian stock market has had a huge impact,” he said. “The Indian stock market stinks, and the dollar has gotten stronger, which hurts airplane sales.”
...

But every part of the private jet industry has been affected. Netjets lets people buy a fractional ownership in planes, and it sells Marquis jet cards that give customers access to the fleet in 25-hour increments. Those businesses, too, are seeing a slowdown.
“People have lost a lot of money, and are careful about how they spend it,” Mr. Santulli said.
“I have never seen it like this,” said Mike Silvestri, the chief executive of Flight Options, which sells shares in jets as well as plans that cover a fixed number of hours a year of private jet use. “Customers are just not flying as much.” Some customers are stretching out the hours bought for a single year over a longer period.
Flight Options has laid off 134 people, including 104 pilots, and hopes it will be able to bring them back.
Mr. Santulli said that the jet market usually picks up three months after the stock market has reached a bottom. There is no indication of an uptick yet.

Better get J-Lo and her doggie & block homies to buy some more Marquis Jet prepaid flying cards, quick!

 

[Semore Butts]

B-19

You're Fired!

 

[Frac Cap]

I normally don't like to acknowledge that the village troll exists, which would only serve to encourage him. But I have noticed that he thrives on the attention that all of you give him. When he doesn't get it, he revives posts that were almost dead in hopes to get attention. Look at all the Flight Options posts that he revived on Christmas Eve when he was lonely and had now one to talk to. One thread was dead for 11 days. But he posted on all 4 of them in hopes to re-stir up hot conversation to entertain him on a lonely holiday. As it has been said many times, please just ignore him and maybe he will play elsewhere.

 

[BeeDubya]

B19,

I love your bravado and ability to predict the future.

So, if it doesn't happen the way you predict, if NJ doesn't furlough, or if management and the Union allow for early retirement packages and voluntary LOAs first, or if the pilots agree to some form of "give backs" (in lieu of furloughs) will you change your position that Unions are always an impediment to managements' altruism and ultimate success and that Unions ruin careers? Will you further retract your disparaging statements about NJ's "industry leading" contract and Union leadership?

Clearly, if you are comprised of the honesty and integrity you claim, these should be easy "Yes" answers.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19,

I love your bravado and ability to predict the future.

So, if it doesn't happen the way you predict, if NJ doesn't furlough, or if management and the Union allow for early retirement packages and voluntary LOAs first, or if the pilots agree to some form of "give backs" (in lieu of furloughs) will you change your position that Unions are always an impediment to managements' altruism and ultimate success and that Unions ruin careers? Will you further retract your disparaging statements about NJ's "industry leading" contract and Union leadership?

Clearly, if you are comprised of the honesty and integrity you claim, these should be easy "Yes" answers.

If the union acts in such a way the company is not placed into a corner like what SWA has accomplished, of course I'll treat the NJA contract like I have respected the SWA agreement. However, the agreement isn't based like SWA. That CBA is based on profit sharing and not greed like the NJA contract is.

Remember this post, because when it hits the fan and it starts to slip, I'll want you apoligizing to me and admitting I was right in predicting the turmoil that is about to make your industry leading contract a worthless piece of paper.