NYT: "Market for Corporate Jets Goes Into Free Fall"

[milky]

B19 flyer, I see what you're saying. The thing is, we have to make enough to be respected as profesionals. If things went back to where they were (pre contract 2005), then we loose respect and credibilty as professionals and pilots. Back in 2005, I would airlne to a place, catch a ride on a CLS car someplace else. Get to talking with the limo driver, 4 out 5 times, his salary was twice my salary (as an F/O)........my college debt is 60,000, he paid nothing to become a driver.....do you see my point????

You are correct about the low pay of airline pilots, but the reason you are not being respected is because the collective 'you' is willing to take jobs for that little money. Collectively, young airline pilots are willing to run up a large amount of debt and then take jobs that barely pay the interest on the debt, let alone make a decent living. As a group, you have driven down your own value. That will only change when people stop showing up for the jobs that pop up. Right now, all of the jobs still seem to be getting thousands of applications per position. Right now, I'm not transitioning to airlines because of how bad of shape the community lies. I am not willing to make so little money for my experience.

As much as you guys seem to hate B-19, he does make good points about how your unions are destroying your own ability to survive. The way you've laid out your contracts has basically taken your ability to differentiate yourself from your buddy. So, what leg do you have to stand on to say you are worth more money when there is somebody just like you that is willing to work for minimum wage or less.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Way to crap on every pilot making less than 32K.

Point is, there shouldn't be any.

 

[B19 Flyer]

For Entertainment Only!

Of course not. It is how you make your living.

Bob19 is a Hired Hit Man. Scheeringa hired him. Ricci kept him.

His profession is that of a Union Buster. He is marginal as an Aviation Manager, at best. But he is kept around due to his Union Busting practice.

Once everyone realizes why he is here and what he is about, he and his words become powerless.

And you can count on those of us that know the man behind the mask, to continue ripping his mask off his face, no matter how many times he tries to put it back on.

Just ask yourself this: Bob19 has stated he works for a Part 121 Non-Union Airline. If that were really the case, why does he spend the VAST majority of his time practicing his Union Busting trade in the Fractionals forum?

Answer: He is a Vice President at Flight Options, and the day the Options Pilots are successful in securing a Contract, Bob19 is out of a Job.


Freedom is Not Free

This is the classic post that is always there to discredit anything I write and I personally find it hilarious. :laugh:

You give me too much credit.:beer:

When was the last Options post, eh? Weeks, months ago?

Nope.. you're wrong again but I'll enjoy it.

Everything I've ever written is true and my opinions are honest.

You just can't believe that anybody could ever dislike your precious, power hungry, selfish and greedy union. :bawling:

Let's watch the industy leading contract at NJ.

It will make for great entertainment for all of us as NJASAP fails to act in a timely manner without the support of the IBT. uke:

 

[Freedom]

Finally, I agree with Bob19 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let's watch the industy leading contract at NJ.

It will make for great entertainment for all of us as NJASAP fails to act in a timely manner without the support of the IBT. uke:

You are correct Bob19! Having the support of the IBT national as a Member of the IBT 1108 was critical to holding Flight Options Managements' feet to the Fire during their attempt to layoff out of Seniority which failed miserably. Hell, guys not only were reinstated, they got full back pay!

NetJets Pilots have decided they are now large enough that they can afford to pay for all the professional services they need on their own to defend themselves against the interests of management.

Clearly the likes of Flight Options, Citation Shares, FlexJet, Avantair, and XOJet, are far too small of Pilot Groups to provide the leverage which can be brought to bare when needed, than when a part of a National Union.

Thanks for making the case of how important it is to be not only a Union Member, but a member of a National Union, when you belong to a relatively small sized Pilot Group.

A Freudian slip there Bob? Actually know the value of the Teamsters to us in terms of leverage?

Perhaps you should Post before you drink.


Freedom is Not Free

 

[brokeflyer]

This is the classic post that is always there to discredit anything I write and I personally find it hilarious. :laugh:

You give me too much credit.:beer:

When was the last Options post, eh? Weeks, months ago?

Nope.. you're wrong again but I'll enjoy it.

Everything I've ever written is true and my opinions are honest.

You just can't believe that anybody could ever dislike your precious, power hungry, selfish and greedy union. :bawling:

Let's watch the industy leading contract at NJ.

It will make for great entertainment for all of us as NJASAP fails to act in a timely manner without the support of the IBT. uke:

A long time ago I asked you if, without the union, management would pay me what I am worth?

Let's assume that there was no unions...would management pay me 140k a year to fly?

I don't think so, I think they would pay the lowest amount possible regardless.

What is your opinion?

 

[Voice Of Reason]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/25/business/25jets.html?_r=2&hp

Market for Corporate Jets Goes Into Free Fall

By GERALDINE FABRIKANT
...

“The jet market stinks,” said Richard Santulli, the chief executive of Netjets, the private jet company owned by Berkshire Hathaway, the holding company led by Warren E. Buffett.
...

Mr. Santulli said that the Russians had been big buyers of jets.
“But the fall of the Russian stock market has had a huge impact,” he said. “The Indian stock market stinks, and the dollar has gotten stronger, which hurts airplane sales.”
...

But every part of the private jet industry has been affected. Netjets lets people buy a fractional ownership in planes, and it sells Marquis jet cards that give customers access to the fleet in 25-hour increments. Those businesses, too, are seeing a slowdown.
“People have lost a lot of money, and are careful about how they spend it,” Mr. Santulli said.
“I have never seen it like this,” said Mike Silvestri, the chief executive of Flight Options, which sells shares in jets as well as plans that cover a fixed number of hours a year of private jet use. “Customers are just not flying as much.” Some customers are stretching out the hours bought for a single year over a longer period.
Flight Options has laid off 134 people, including 104 pilots, and hopes it will be able to bring them back.
Mr. Santulli said that the jet market usually picks up three months after the stock market has reached a bottom. There is no indication of an uptick yet.

Better get J-Lo and her doggie & block homies to buy some more Marquis Jet prepaid flying cards, quick!

 

[Semore Butts]

B-19

You're Fired!

 

[Frac Cap]

I normally don't like to acknowledge that the village troll exists, which would only serve to encourage him. But I have noticed that he thrives on the attention that all of you give him. When he doesn't get it, he revives posts that were almost dead in hopes to get attention. Look at all the Flight Options posts that he revived on Christmas Eve when he was lonely and had now one to talk to. One thread was dead for 11 days. But he posted on all 4 of them in hopes to re-stir up hot conversation to entertain him on a lonely holiday. As it has been said many times, please just ignore him and maybe he will play elsewhere.

 

[BeeDubya]

B19,

I love your bravado and ability to predict the future.

So, if it doesn't happen the way you predict, if NJ doesn't furlough, or if management and the Union allow for early retirement packages and voluntary LOAs first, or if the pilots agree to some form of "give backs" (in lieu of furloughs) will you change your position that Unions are always an impediment to managements' altruism and ultimate success and that Unions ruin careers? Will you further retract your disparaging statements about NJ's "industry leading" contract and Union leadership?

Clearly, if you are comprised of the honesty and integrity you claim, these should be easy "Yes" answers.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19,

I love your bravado and ability to predict the future.

So, if it doesn't happen the way you predict, if NJ doesn't furlough, or if management and the Union allow for early retirement packages and voluntary LOAs first, or if the pilots agree to some form of "give backs" (in lieu of furloughs) will you change your position that Unions are always an impediment to managements' altruism and ultimate success and that Unions ruin careers? Will you further retract your disparaging statements about NJ's "industry leading" contract and Union leadership?

Clearly, if you are comprised of the honesty and integrity you claim, these should be easy "Yes" answers.

If the union acts in such a way the company is not placed into a corner like what SWA has accomplished, of course I'll treat the NJA contract like I have respected the SWA agreement. However, the agreement isn't based like SWA. That CBA is based on profit sharing and not greed like the NJA contract is.

Remember this post, because when it hits the fan and it starts to slip, I'll want you apoligizing to me and admitting I was right in predicting the turmoil that is about to make your industry leading contract a worthless piece of paper.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Another conspiracy debunked.

I normally don't like to acknowledge that the village troll exists, which would only serve to encourage him. But I have noticed that he thrives on the attention that all of you give him. When he doesn't get it, he revives posts that were almost dead in hopes to get attention. Look at all the Flight Options posts that he revived on Christmas Eve when he was lonely and had now one to talk to. One thread was dead for 11 days. But he posted on all 4 of them in hopes to re-stir up hot conversation to entertain him on a lonely holiday. As it has been said many times, please just ignore him and maybe he will play elsewhere.

The union mongers seem to be upset when I don't show up and respond every day, and lord forbid should I skip a post here and there. On the morning of Christmas eve I had been gone for over a week and responded to as many as I could before I flew out for a few days. I didn't dredge up old stuff, all I did was respond to as many posts as I could in 20 minutes.

Nice try here for the conspiracy theory, but like I've always said.... there ain't no conspiracy.

 

[brokeflyer]

The union mongers seem to be upset when I don't show up and respond every day, and lord forbid should I skip a post here and there. On the morning of Christmas eve I had been gone for over a week and responded to as many as I could before I flew out for a few days. I didn't dredge up old stuff, all I did was respond to as many posts as I could in 20 minutes.

Nice try here for the conspiracy theory, but like I've always said.... there ain't no conspiracy.

once again, can you answer this?

If there was no union, would the company pay me what I was worth? Would they pay me 6 figures?

 

[Publishers]

I do not want to become B19 here nor take his position but there are a couple of points to be made. One is the comment regarding when you are small, you need the bigger union. Anyone who ever negotiated a union contract knows one basic fact. If you are small potatoes in the industry, you are also small potatoes to a big union. Their economics work just like a company.
Secondly, there is little doubt that the unions have screwed up the airline business beyond all help. Pointing to Netjets as a fractional or Southwest as an airline and saying --see this can work -- just misses the boat. In fact, they both now have in house unions and that is the only prayer for surviving with them.
The problem is not the union--the B19. The problem is there is no stability in the environment that they operate in, they create legacy obligations that someone who competes does not have, and they are slow to respond.

 

[Semore Butts]

B-19

Youre Fired!

 

[BeeDubya]

Remember this post, because when it hits the fan and it starts to slip, I'll want you apoligizing [sic] to me and admitting I was right in predicting the turmoil that is about to make your industry leading contract a worthless piece of paper.

B19,

What exactly do you think I should apologize for? I made no declarative statements. I did not accuse you of anything. I asked if you would alter your remarks based on what actually occurs. I made no predictions, either. Neither did I claim that your predictions are right or wrong.

 

[Hogprint]

Bridgeway Bob, Bob19 or shall I call you Family Guy? posted :

That CBA is based on profit sharing and not greed like the NJA contract is.

Are you really this ignorant or just stupid? The NJA contract wasn't negotiated on greed as you opined. It was Interest Based Bargaining. The company willingly gave us a RAISE after the the '05 contract. I guess you have a hard time sorting facts from your chaff...

 

[B19 Flyer]

greed based contract

Bridgeway Bob, Bob19 or shall I call you Family Guy? posted :



Are you really this ignorant or just stupid? The NJA contract wasn't negotiated on greed as you opined. It was Interest Based Bargaining. The company willingly gave us a RAISE after the the '05 contract. I guess you have a hard time sorting facts from your chaff...

Does the contract ebb and flow with the success of the company as the SWA contract does?


If it doesn't, then it's a greed based contract that could only increase.


If the company willingly gave a raise after the '05 contract, will the union willingly give some of that $$ back if the company takes a loss this year?


If not, it's a greed based contract.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I do not want to become B19 here nor take his position but there are a couple of points to be made. One is the comment regarding when you are small, you need the bigger union. Anyone who ever negotiated a union contract knows one basic fact. If you are small potatoes in the industry, you are also small potatoes to a big union. Their economics work just like a company.
Secondly, there is little doubt that the unions have screwed up the airline business beyond all help. Pointing to Netjets as a fractional or Southwest as an airline and saying --see this can work -- just misses the boat. In fact, they both now have in house unions and that is the only prayer for surviving with them.
The problem is not the union--the B19. The problem is there is no stability in the environment that they operate in, they create legacy obligations that someone who competes does not have, and they are slow to respond.

Agreed and well stated. Right now I'm aware that the SWA MEC is leaning toward a CBA along the lines of the rest of the industry which will change the face of the entire company. At SWA, this extends beyond the pilot group into all the other working areas also.

As I've stated before the "industry leading contract" at NJ has yet to be proven as successful because it's too early in the game. This year will test that contract. If it is too expensive, furloughs will happen. If it's too greedy, furloughs will happen AND NJ will ask for givebacks, then.. like with the legacy carriers, the turmoil will be miserable in the company for everybody.

 

[Semore Butts]

B-19

You're Fired!

 

[Publishers]

One significant difference between this and the airlines is Netjets can effectively change its prices at will as compared to airlines which beat each other to death.
This is also where the symbiotic nature of NJA comes into play because they get a piece of the pie at a lot of stops along the way as compared to someone else like Avantair or Flops.
Secondly, it almost never the direct cost that kills as compared to work rules and non productivity clauses like the auto job bank.
I just completed the quick study at MIA for December and fractionals dropped from 458 flights in 2007 to 370 in 2008..75% were Netjets.
At this point, it will be pretty much impossible for anyone to ever really compete with them and they are alone as the industry to themselves.