NYT: "Market for Corporate Jets Goes Into Free Fall"

[Flex-ible]

Fact, not fiction. NJ is about to experience the exact same thing and all the compliments that RTS has gotten on this board will fall to the wayside when he looks at NJASAP and asks for some of it back.

Or...NJ will get through the downturn, using a bit of the $33 BILLION in cash that its parent company has.

And down the road four or five years, the union members will be calling for their leaderships head on platter because they signed such a long contract - and the other fractionals passed them by!

 

[JungleJett]

And down the road four or five years, the union members will be calling for their leaderships head on platter because they signed such a long contract - and the other fractionals passed them by!

How will that be when NJA will be the only frac left?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Or...NJ will get through the downturn, using a bit of the $33 BILLION in cash that its parent company has.

And down the road four or five years, the union members will be calling for their leaderships head on platter because they signed such a long contract - and the other fractionals passed them by!

Buffet will sell NJ before he puts serious money into it. It is well known that each company stands on it's own within B-H, and as long as it does well it stays. If it doesn't do well, you will lose Uncle Warren as a benefactor.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B9 posted:



Netjets isn't a legacy carrier. You of all people should know the difference if you claim to be in the position you say you're in.

This is a new ball game. Like I said in an earlier post. A case of beer of your choice if it doesn't turn out as you "predict".

You are right, Netjets is not a legacy carrier. NJ doesn't have the time and history of a legacy carrier and is much more susceptible to a downturn in the industry. The whole time the fracs have been in operation the economy has been on an upswing without any serious repercussions. Right now will be the most serious challenge and I'll hold to my prediction that if new shares aren't being sold at the same rate as they were before the industry leading contract is going to seriously be tested sooner than anybody would have hoped. The corporate backlash of private jets is just the tip of the iceberg and only those with enough flexibility will be able to survive.

 

[Hogprint]

B9 posted:

The whole time the fracs have been in operation the economy has been on an upswing without any serious repercussions.

Wrong. Better check out your time line before making a statement like that.

Buffet will sell NJ before he puts serious money into it.

A little wishful thinking on your part!? I have to ask...do you really believe what you're saying here? Do you know anything at all about NJA's history with WB?

My suggestion is go back and do a little research. I'll help you out. Fortune 500 magazine is a good start. WB lets the cat out of the bag in a couple of interviews in regards to NJ's. After you bone up, you'll see the error of your ways.

 

[brokeflyer]

You are right, Netjets is not a legacy carrier. NJ doesn't have the time and history of a legacy carrier and is much more susceptible to a downturn in the industry. The whole time the fracs have been in operation the economy has been on an upswing without any serious repercussions. Right now will be the most serious challenge and I'll hold to my prediction that if new shares aren't being sold at the same rate as they were before the industry leading contract is going to seriously be tested sooner than anybody would have hoped. The corporate backlash of private jets is just the tip of the iceberg and only those with enough flexibility will be able to survive.

You're entitled to your opinion, however what pisses everyone off is your attitude about it. You make it sound as if you want us all to lose our jobs.....

 

[FLYLOW22]

B19 is just a lost little sheep with a bull horn.

What she doesn't realize is that as corporate flight departments wind down, fractional shares will spool up.

Are those corporate heads going to fly with Rez and PCL over in major airline land? Heck no. Those guys can't even tuck in their shirts and wipe the lav down in their fight with each other and management. There is simply no time for passenger needs.

Back to reality...

Who will most of those business leaders choose to invest with? Will they invest for 5 years with a company that is currently laying off pilots and showing financial weakness or one that has maintained it's existing payroll and aircraft orders? Which company is better positioned to spring forward when the economy rebounds?

B19, it's okay. We don't expect you to follow... just get out of the way... cause you sure as heck are no leader.

 

[B19 Flyer]

You're entitled to your opinion, however what pisses everyone off is your attitude about it. You make it sound as if you want us all to lose our jobs.....

That's not what upsets everybody, what upsets everybody is that I don't buy into the union concept.

To me, it's a big entity and unions are there to take every extra last penny of it at the expense of all the employees in the company, the passengers (owners), the local economy which depends on the company and the company itself.

Unions don't care about anybody but themselves and their internal bretheren at anybody elses expense.

I don't want to see anybody lose jobs.. and one of my complaints about unions is that they will sacrifice and allow the bottom third of the seniority list to be furloughed and protect the high wages of the upper two thirds. Instead, they could quickly reduce the overall package and save the jobs but they don't. Oh, and before the pilots are furloughed, non pilots always lose their jobs too.

No, I don't want to see jobs lost, I want to see jobs saved and that isn't what unions are about. They are about greed and selfishness - and they don't care where they get it from or what the final outcome is. Tear it down rather than save it is their motto, it has been since the beginning.

 

[amaineiac]

You are right, Netjets is not a legacy carrier. NJ doesn't have the time and history of a legacy carrier and is much more susceptible to a downturn in the industry. The whole time the fracs have been in operation the economy has been on an upswing without any serious repercussions.

Have you been drinking, or are you really this ignorant?

NetJets has been around since 1986. Since that time, we have had 3 (including the current one) recessions here in the US.

How many airlines have furloughed, shut down, restructured in the last 10 years? How about looking at the airline index since 1992? NetJets has grown and prospered significantly during that same time.

I guess your the monkey flipping the chart in this video. Just twist the facts to support your incorrect conclusions.

 

[brokeflyer]

so you would suggest that I get paid a $hity salary?, with no health benefits for my family? an unsafe work envrironment?......is that the answer?

I understand you dont like unions, that is ok. I dont like when unions pay a guy at Ford $30 to mop the floor....but, for us, the only alternative is the above scenario. We need this union or else we can't live, we need it or else we'll be forced to do unsafe things to get that last dollar.

Years ago I flew at a company that paid a salary of $200 per week and $200 for every trip I flew. It was real hard to balance what was safe and what my paycheck needed to be.

The more you push about anti-union the more you make it appear that you want us pilots to be trained dogs that will only fetch. That is the wrong approach and will only cause us to push back.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19 is just a lost little sheep with a bull horn.

The bull horn is what leads you each and every day flylow..

What he doesn't realize is that as corporate flight departments wind down, fractional shares will spool up.

That isn't what RTS is stating.

Are those corporate heads going to fly with Rez and PCL over in major airline land? Heck no. Those guys can't even tuck in their shirts and wipe the lav down in their fight with each other and management.

The 121 world is what wrote the rules you live by whether you like it or not. Without 121, NJ doesn't exist in it's current form. I'd show those folks a little more respect while they zip you around from flight to flight so you can earn a living.

There is simply no time for passenger needs.

And why is that? Could it be that unions have gobbled up so much of the payroll pie that the airline can no longer afford to pay high wages to keep support staff?

Back to reality...

Who will most of those business leaders choose to invest with? Will they invest for 5 years with a company that is currently laying off pilots and showing financial weakness or one that has maintained it's existing payroll and aircraft orders? Which company is better positioned to spring forward when the economy rebounds?

Without sales, fracs can't keep the business model solid. Who is going to buy those shares in the short term market place. RTS himself recently stated how far off the market was.


B19, it's okay. We don't expect you to follow... just get out of the way... cause you sure as heck are no leader.

Considering I had significant input into the rules package you current fly with, it is clear to me that you are the follower and I'm the leader. You really need to get out of the airplane and into management where the real work gets done.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[brokeflyer]

so you would suggest that I get paid a $hity salary?, with no health benefits for my family? an unsafe work envrironment?......is that the answer?

I understand you dont like unions, that is ok. I dont like when unions pay a guy at Ford $30 to mop the floor....but, for us, the only alternative is the above scenario. We need this union or else we can't live, we need it or else we'll be forced to do unsafe things to get that last dollar.

Years ago I flew at a company that paid a salary of $200 per week and $200 for every trip I flew. It was real hard to balance what was safe and what my paycheck needed to be.

The more you push about anti-union the more you make it appear that you want us pilots to be trained dogs that will only fetch. That is the wrong approach and will only cause us to push back.


I was the top rule maker for part 91k.....so I dont understand what you're talking about.

 

[B19 Flyer]

so you would suggest that I get paid a $hity salary?, with no health benefits for my family? an unsafe work envrironment?......is that the answer?

I understand you dont like unions, that is ok. I dont like when unions pay a guy at Ford $30 to mop the floor....but, for us, the only alternative is the above scenario. We need this union or else we can't live, we need it or else we'll be forced to do unsafe things to get that last dollar.

Years ago I flew at a company that paid a salary of $200 per week and $200 for every trip I flew. It was real hard to balance what was safe and what my paycheck needed to be.

The more you push about anti-union the more you make it appear that you want us pilots to be trained dogs that will only fetch. That is the wrong approach and will only cause us to push back.


I was the top rule maker for part 91k.....so I dont understand what you're talking about.

Not once.. not once have I ever stated you had to accept a sub-standard salary or work for a carrier you deemed unsafe. However, I have clearly stated over and over that the entire health of the entity is what is important, not just the one group. Unions as a group historically have put themselves above the company and were willing to destroy the company and everything around it in the process. I don't agree with that theory, pure and simple.

Broke, if you were in the committee work group with Kathryn and the others, then we know each other. But I highly doubt you were.

 

[brokeflyer]

well without the union we would not be paid what we deserve for the job at hand, nor would we have benefits for our children, nor would we have work rules that protect us from profit wh0res.

The union is a result of something happening higher up, the just don't pop up outta thin air. You need a cause for the union to happen, the bad things happen then the union is created. Sorry you feel that way but that's just way it is. I can't change it, i just live with it.

Yeah I was the head rulemaker guy for 91k, i also created the internet and invented the question mark...lol

no one cares that you were on a board to do anything, this is the internet, we can be anything we wanna be here. Im also a surrogate father for penthouse pets.....

 

[B19 Flyer]

Need to know the industry secret...

well without the union we would not be paid what we deserve for the job at hand, nor would we have benefits for our children, nor would we have work rules that protect us from profit wh0res.

I found all that without the need for a union, and all you mention above I lost at one time or another because of a union.

The union is a result of something happening higher up, the just don't pop up outta thin air. You need a cause for the union to happen, the bad things happen then the union is created.

Not true, 1108 is still trying to dig into all the other fracs even though the pilots don't want it. They are lobbying all the time and proudly state that they want to have the entire industry.

Sorry you feel that way but that's just way it is. I can't change it, i just live with it.

Yeah I was the head rulemaker guy for 91k, i also created the internet and invented the question mark...lol

Damn democrat...

no one cares that you were on a board to do anything, this is the internet, we can be anything we wanna be here. Im also a surrogate father for penthouse pets.....

Must be your training as a pilot to withstand those high altitudes. Tell me an industry secret.. do all those buildings really have fake grass for the pets to poop on?

<<<<<<<<<<

 

[FLYLOW22]

>
Originally Posted by FLYLOW22
B19 is just a lost little sheep with a bull horn.

The bull horn is what leads you each and every day flylow..

I don't follow you Boob. I am "led"? Care to elaborate?

What he doesn't realize is that as corporate flight departments wind down, fractional shares will spool up.

That isn't what RTS is stating.

Funny. That's not what I heard. Of course, I was there. You weren't. Guess that makes sense in your world.

Are those corporate heads going to fly with Rez and PCL over in major airline land? Heck no. Those guys can't even tuck in their shirts and wipe the lav down in their fight with each other and management.

The 121 world is what wrote the rules you live by whether you like it or not. Without 121, NJ doesn't exist in it's current form. I'd show those folks a little more respect while they zip you around from flight to flight so you can earn a living.

Respect is earned. Take you for example. I don't respect you at all. 121 was written after 91 and before 135. It had little bearing on 91K. What otehr rules are you referring to?

There is simply no time for passenger needs.

And why is that? Could it be that unions have gobbled up so much of the payroll pie that the airline can no longer afford to pay high wages to keep support staff?

Rez and PCL can answer that argument for you in the Majors section. They have all the answers to questions that really aren't relevant to us.

Back to reality...

Who will most of those business leaders choose to invest with? Will they invest for 5 years with a company that is currently laying off pilots and showing financial weakness or one that has maintained it's existing payroll and aircraft orders? Which company is better positioned to spring forward when the economy rebounds?

Without sales, fracs can't keep the business model solid. Who is going to buy those shares in the short term market place. RTS himself recently stated how far off the market was.

Sales will come back Nostrodamus. NetJets will be the best poised to make money when it does. What is your source on what RTS says BTW? Those bathroom stalls you hang out in looking for dates?

B19, it's okay. We don't expect you to follow... just get out of the way... cause you sure as heck are no leader.

Considering I had significant input into the rules package you current fly with, it is clear to me that you are the follower and I'm the leader. You really need to get out of the airplane and into management where the real work gets done.

Yes. Let's all go to management. I agree. It's top-heavy already in there but what's another 3,000 VPs.

You tool.

Significant input? HA!!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

......

 

[brokeflyer]

hey if the company came out and offered to pay me what my job shoud pay, paid my health care and let ME the CAPTAIN decide what is safe, I'd say fine, get rid of the union. I'd be the first in line to vote them out.

respond to that.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

hey if the company came out and offered to pay me what my job shoud pay, paid my health care and let ME the CAPTAIN decide what is safe, I'd say fine, get rid of the union. I'd be the first in line to vote them out.

respond to that.

The problem with that line of thinking is that Flops once had that situation. Unless you have it in writing, you have nothing

 

[brokeflyer]

The problem with that line of thinking is that Flops once had that situation. Unless you have it in writing, you have nothing

right....and thats why they get a union.

 

[fischman]

The problem with that line of thinking is that Flops once had that situation. Unless you have it in writing, you have nothing

Bingo.