NYT Article on the Airlines...Worst Yet to Come...

[General Lee]

oldxfr8dog,

You have NO CLUE what you are talking about. First of all, we only have 8 777s, so anyone who was a 777 Capt was very very senior. (compared to AA having over 30 777s) Second, how much money do you think each passenger contributed from each ticket per hour? Maybe 80 cents. So, on a trip to Paris the passengers each paid around $7 each (out of $300-400 each way) for the Captain's experience. Also, do you think our Delta 777 Captains sold the fuel hedges and lost an extra $600 million this year? Oh, that's right---I remember one of them saying "hey, let's pay more for gas because it is fun...." Come on. You sound like management's best friend.

As far as our furloughs go, yeah, they probably are banging their heads. But, a chapter 11 would have made their stay out even longer, because more would have joined them. And, do you have a better idea when 500 senior guys want to retire and only have to give 24 hours notice? That sounds like it could park every widebody, and that would really help our financial situation. Do you have a better idea? At least those guys will eventually go, and why do I know that? Because the IRS said so---they don't like the double dipping much either. Taking your lump sum and still working kinda irks the IRS, and a deal was made for a specific amount of time. Many of those retired guys are in their mid 50's, so actually the furloughs will come back sooner than if those guys stayed until they were 60. It sounded like the best deal for a bad situation. That $ucks, but the alternative was worse. Good night.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[climbhappy]

Gordon Bethune said it best....

"until there is some rational thinking put into pricing strategy, you'll keep seeing losses in the industry.

two weeks ago, American cancelled a $10 add on , because SWA dodn't follow, nor did anyone else.

The problem is the service is rarely distinguishable. his Airbus is just like mine, and his cost less, so I fly it. Consumers get the benefit. Does all this passenger traffic mean squat if salaries, benefits and profits are in the toilet.

SWA hung in long enough for a huge change in buyer preferences to have kicked in.

That is why GOVERNMENT SUBSIDY OF AIRLINES IS WRONG.

when the number of players is reduced then prices will go back up.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

And Skywest will become the lowest paying legacy carrier in the future---flying 150 seat jets for 50 seat wages.........Thanks a bunch.



Bye Bye--General Lee

I can understand your frustration that Delta is giving more flying away to the regionals. That affects your pocketbook. But, what about members of the ALPA clan who have been flying a B757 for B737 (or less) wages? Shouldn't you be blaming them too?

Had ALPA converted themselves to a real union and insisted on a national seniority list where the individual pilot is employed by the union I think we could have avoided all these problems.

GP

 

[doh]

Oldxfr8dog,

I have to say this again, pilot pay is not the core villain here! I can't tell you how many times I used to read in the paper one article saying the Delta pilots are the highest paid and then turned the page to read that US Airways has the highest pilot costs!?! How can this be? The fleet mix at U was (is) so messed up. Go look on the ramp. U had every type of airplane known to man. That's too many pilots off line doing training, managing, andtoo many training cycles generated! That is poor management pure and simple! You can mask that some what by getting pay cuts but you can't cure it. U is still bleeding cash and their pilot pay is abyssmal! Have a nice day!

 

[fredgalaxy]

OK. You fat cats crack me up. Every regional pilot should quit right now in order to help the legacy wages stay in tact. When Delta recovers from the brink of BK, they will be sure to hire a guy who hasn't been flying. Application says: "Recent Flying Experience: I quit my regional flying job in order to stop the race to the bottom to save the industry." Are you and the cronies at the other airlines going to take me seriously? Give me a break. You sit here and bash regional guys when they have little choice. There aren't too many options if pilots want to have a flying career. If you can't get picked up by a major, you pretty much fly with a regional carrier. As for SkyWest's rates--no one really believed there would be 70 seaters on the property during the 18-month TA. Plus if they had voted it down, it would have been delivered to them anyway down their throats. Supposedly there will be separate scales when the new pay agreement comes about. Turn the judgement glasses inward for a moment!

 

[MedFlyer]

oldxfr8dog,

You have NO CLUE what you are talking about. First of all, we only have 8 777s, so anyone who was a 777 Capt was very very senior. (compared to AA having over 30 777s) Second, how much money do you think each passenger contributed from each ticket per hour? Maybe 80 cents. So, on a trip to Paris the passengers each paid around $7 each (out of $300-400 each way) for the Captain's experience.

So according to you, mainline pilot pay on the 777 has NO impact on DL's financial's and ability to acquire aircraft. However, according to you, Comair's "high" pilot pay is the reason Comair isn't getting any planes.

Why does pilot pay only play a factor for regionals and not mainline? Why the double standard?

Your logic (or lack thereof) explains why mainline got such a crappy contract.

 

[BID]

{I am sure there are plenty of nice Skywesters. Great. But, they were among the first to ACCEPT growth for the same pay, and that was planes up to 99 seats for 50 seat wages. }

Above quoted by the General.

Air Indy Airbus pay $125.00 6 yr captain. America West pays all the same 757, 737-200, Airbus, etc. 6 year captain $125.00 same as Air Indy What is the difference in number of seats between a 737-200 and a 757?

Mesa pays $69.00 per hour for a 90 seat aircraft at a 6 year captain rate.
Their 70 seat is $64.00 per hour vs SkyWest $65.00 per hour 50 seat rate.

CHQ pays $68.00 per hour for the EMB-170 6 year captain rate.

(all values taken from airlinepilotpay.com)

Now General, you are focused on SkyWest! Guess what, we don't have anything bigger than a 70 seat aircraft. To top it off, our 18 months are over. We are in the process of changing these pay rates. Difficult, but I truly believe our pilot group will not accept anything, but a split 50 and 70 seat rate.

BTW, I am curious what you guys pay for the 757 and the 767-300? Is it the same pay rate ??????????????????

Also, if you think you are done with pay cuts, you might be in for a surprise. Who will you blame 2005?

 

[AMRCostUnit]

If the pilots at an airline worked for free and the company still loses money does NOT suggest to me that pilot pay is a problem.

There is no correlation between pilot pay and large money losing management decisions.

Unfortunately, we employees get stuck holding the empty bag.

There has been a transfer of flying from the majors to the regionals. But the pay and QOL is NOT being transfered. Well, it is; but not to any line employees...

The regional guys are trapped because the music at the majors has stopped and there is no chair for them and probably won't be for a long, long time. There so many highly experienced guys on the street that the majors that are hiring can be very choosy.

The only profitable airlines flying today have one thing in common: they do NOT have RJ subsidiaries. AirTran tried it for a while and abandoned it. It is very difficult to make any money flying jets smaller than 100 seats. That is why "fee-for-departure" and "capacity purchase agreements" are necessary. AMR has set up AA to pay Eagle "cost plus 8%" for each of their flights. That is why it is said Eagle is "profitable". Yes, AA keeps the revenue but the 10K shows a $250 million shortfall from that arrangement.

Management's endgame here is to get the largest aircraft to be flown by the lowest cost pilots. Not that they CAN'T make money with higher cost group; they can make MORE MONEY (for bonuses) with the lower cost group. Nothing personal; just good business. They'll take a loss for now (what the heck, the employees will pay for it, why not?) until they get it optimized and it will pay them back large.

Take a good look at SwissAir. The CrossAir RJ subsidiary took over ALL of the flying. That's where they want to be.

Did I miss anything?

Unit

 

[General Lee]

BID,


I am glad you KNOW we will get another pay cut in 2005. By the way, what are the Lotto numbers for the Georgia lottery? (or the Pick 5)

Ah, you got that the 757 and 767-300 wages are the same. Good research. But, they just came down from being more on the FO seat in the 5th or 6th year than an AA Captain on the 777. You can pull that argument both ways. I think the 757 wages were brought UP to the 767-300 wages. So, in reality, our 757 wages are great, thanks to them bringing them UP to the 767-300 wages. What a good deal! That is what happened in our 2000 Contract. Our 757 pay rates were less than the 767, and then they made them equal, without lowering the 767's.(actually increasing it) Good try.


Now, you guys are different. You guys went for growth, and your senior guys, who have "been around" overwhelmingly voted it down, to be out voted by every junior FO and Captain searching for a better quality of life. My friend over there could not believe it passed. Now it is time to see if you guys will do the same. I predict industry lowest A319 rates. (for growth, darnit) Good luck, and I hope that is not the case and you get paid what you deserve. Yes, you currently only have 50 and 70 seaters, but you agreed to seats up to 99 I believe? What is next? Gerry Atkin is salivating. Isn't that Indy Air Airbus pay rate for an 18 year Captain? Are you close to 18 years at Skywest?

And again, what are those Lotto numbers?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[46Driver]

Now, you guys are different. You guys went for growth, and your senior guys, who have "been around" overwhelmingly voted it down, to be out voted by every junior FO and Captain searching for a better quality of life.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

If its not multi-engine PIC time, then its worthless being an FO. The hiring departments at the big airlines only want multi-engine PIC - until you change that, don't expect anything else to change.

 

[altscap]

I am sure there are plenty of nice Skywesters. Great. But, they were among the first to ACCEPT growth for the same pay, and that was planes up to 99 seats for 50 seat wages. All of their senior pilots knew this was a crock, but all of the junior guys and junior Captains apparently voted for growth, not seeing that they initiated a trend. That trend will keep their salaries down for decades. Sure, we at Delta just gave up huge pay also, but we actually brought the "bar" up to the highest it has ever been for 3 full years. We had 777 Captains making over $320 an hour. Not anymore. Was the threat of bankruptcy looming over the Skywesters' heads? Nope. What is next for Skywest? A318s for RJ wages? Probably. I bet the senior guys over there are banging their heads against the walls.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

Just in case all you "bigleaguers" have forgotten what it's like at the regional level, here's a taste. Mesa IS getting 737's-rumor has it there are at least 2-200's on the property already. Expect to see them flying under the old freedumb ticket (no, that hasn't gone away, just lurking in the shadows like some corrupt spider waiting to leap on an unsuspecting industry). Rumor also has it that mgmt and Mesa ALPA have reach an agreement on payscales. This has not been made public knowledge yet but at one point jonathan Orenstien was expecting 50 seat rj f/o's to fly a 737 FOR THE SAME SCALE!!!! Captains to be paid at 20% over our 86 seat scale or about $72 an hour for me, yeah I know this is well below the average. Here's the problem. Orenstien has no problem about doing an end-run around ALPA (they don't adequately represent the regionals anymore anyway) and hiring crews off the street. You WILL see guys with 1000-1500tt with sh@%-eating grins on their faces flying a 737 at $20 an hour just for the "priveledge" of being on a narrow body. JO always gets things up and running and then by the time ALPA gets the legal side up and running to stop him, it's two years later, freedumb has already been inthe air for a year and the precious pic time has been pushed back yet another 12 months. It is unfortunant, but someday you will see a 737 execute a tail slide, hopefully into a body of water isntead of turning one or more homes into a smoking crater.

FN FAL - You know, mesa is ripe for a class-action..we've got harassment, hostile work envirnoment, unsafe scheduling practices (oh wait never mind, they're legal), emotional distress related to threats against our livelyhood, discrimination against single mothers (possibly), and more convicted felons than college graduations in the upper echelon.

I used to work the cargo side aof things for DAL and dreamed of making to the right seat of a 757. Now it looks like I'll be flying an international contract gig or leaving the industry intirelly before I develop an ulcer. So as bad as it is at your level, remember that your pay cut of 50% that leaves you with $165 an hour on the 777, and being treated like a human being and an asset to your company is light years ahead of what we are dealing with. Until you've slept on an airplane for 2 hours in the middle of the night because the company is too cheap to spend $200 for hotel rooms, I really don't see what you have to complain about.

My apologies if I got off the subject or mispelled a few words in my ranting.

 

[fokkers&beer]

Welcome to the United States, we are a country that believes in the FREE MARKET. Maybe you have heard of it. De regulation has finally taken hold. If your old and inefficient airline can't keep up, maybe it is time for it to go to sleep. It is a free market and the strong contenders will survive. People have spoken and they want cheap tickets. The consumer does not care what your QOL is, they just want to get from point a to point b as cheap as possible. When the old inefficient carriers have closed their doors, and everyones wage has unfortunately declined the cycle will be complete. Welcome to Economics 201, a required college course for most degrees, maybe you took it.

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"Welcome to the United States, we are a country that believes in the FREE MARKET. "


Horsepoop! We don't have as "free" of a free market economy as you would like to think.

If we did, companies wouldn't be allowed to "hide" in chapter 11 protection for years. They would be allowed to wither and die if they can't make it. A judge wouldn't be allowed to step in and say that creditors cannot repo aircraft that aren't being paid for. What's up with that in this supposed free market economy??



"De regulation has finally taken hold. If your old and inefficient airline can't keep up, maybe it is time for it to go to sleep."

Thats funny..........a couple should already have gone "to sleep" but the government allows them to stay around via their bankruptcy laws.

 

[General Lee]

Altscap,


I have been there. I flew E120s for Midway connection out of MDW in the early to mid 90's, and I have been paid crap and I have done continuous duty overnights and decided to sleep in the frozen plane rather than drive 30 minutes to a hotel and have 4 hours of sleep and then drive back again. I have been there. The reason I brought this up is because we are in the middle of a spiral, and watching the regionals go down the tube when they aren't paid enough already is disturbing. Skywest started it by accpeting those rates in exchange for growth, and those FO's wanted the ability to upgrade quicker, which would help their then current situation. The junior Captains just wanted more growth so they could get a line faster and improve their lifestyle. It was a recipe for disaster, and their CEO knew it. They threatened them that they would not get the United codeshare again, and the next morning after they signed the new deal, at 7am, the United lawyers signed the deal too. Do you think that wasn't the plan anyway? What a joke. As far as Mesa and Freedum go, I have talked to a Mesa captain recently and he said the same, the FOs on the 737 would be paid RJ wages. He said they would NOT go for it there. We shall see.

Yeah, our payscales aren't that bad, and our 777 captains still make over $200 an hour. The problem is we don't have that many 777s and it would be tought to ever hold that. I am not complaining about my wage, and I wish it were like it used to be, but we will have to wait a while and then try to regain some of that again someday. It may take a while. I have 20 years to go hopefully, and maybe it will be close....?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BID]

Yes, SkyWest started this whole mess and now we are flying 90 seat aircraft for $69.00 per hour. No wait or is that Mesa flying them for $69.00 per hour.

General, I do not know if you guys are going to get any more pay cuts. You are right about that. I sincerely hope not. But to say SkyWest started this all for the sake of growth is a bit narrow minded and one sided. Just before the vote took place there was a threat Mesa would be flying more for UAL, and if we did not become "competitive" we could stand to lose on UAL contract flying. Many were afraid, especially a lot of the EMB guys on the West coast (UAL flying), so the vote passed. I was also surprised how many senior pilots voted yes.

The scare tactic worked and early the next morning an order for more jets was announced. Big surprise! UAL was already getting upset we took too long to make the announcement and the pilot group felt cheated. The point is we did not start this mess. Maybe you guys did with scope clause? Maybe it was the low cost carriers? Maybe it was the weak union at Mesa? Maybe it is UAL oursourcing to just about every regional out there, looking for the lowest bidder.

Let us see what happens in the next month. Maybe we can fix the pay rates between the 50 and 70 seat aircraft, but until we actually get anything bigger than a 70 seat aircraft, which by the way I pray we never do, I am not going to sweat it. I actually think it is silly to have rates for aircraft we do not have or intend to get in the near future. Anything bigger than 70 seats has to stay at the major airline level, you guys better not screw that up.